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Got the Memo Yet? You Can Indeed Prove a Negative!

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
To: To Whomever it May Concern
From: Your Doting Uncle Sunstone
Date: March, 23, 2018
Subject: Have You Gotten "the Memo" Yet On Proving a Negative?


In folk logic, it is impossible to prove a negative. So it is impossible, according to folk logicians, to prove that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster, God, Bigfoot, and @Debater Slayer's morals don’t exist.

Even some pretty bright bulbs in such power-house disciplines as physics, chemistry, biology, and erotic dance are on record here and there as saying things like, "One of the laws of logic is that you cannot prove a negative".

*cough* *cough* However, all or almost all professional logicians¹ would laugh at such a notion. "Hah! Hah!", they would laugh! "Hah! Hah!" (<--------- Disclaimer: This is a mere simulation of logicians laughing. Real logicians might or might not laugh in a similar manner. No logicians were hurt during the creation of this simulation.)

Seriously, I never in my university days came across even a single text or paper by a professional in logic or in epistemology that said you could not prove a negative. Not one! And I was studying that kind of stuff back then! And women. I was studying women too!

Moreover, I did come across texts and papers in peer-reviewed journals that argued persuasively (in my opinion) that you can indeed prove a negative -- just as well as you can prove anything else (and prove them inductively, deductively, and abductively).

Just one example here, just one example, to keep things short and to the point:

One of the most basic rules or laws of logic is called the "Law of Non-Contradiction". Here's one formulation of it: "A proposition cannot be both true and not true at the same time." Nothing is both true and false at the same moment.

Please take a moment to notice that the law is a negative statement.

Now, I won't go into the gory details here, but you can actually prove that law is true, prove it according to rigorous, air-tight, reasoning (although it's a little complicated, as I recall). So, right off the bat, with a very basic law of logic, we have a case of proving the negative.

Inductively and abductively speaking, you can also prove negatives! To be precise, you can prove them just as well as you can prove anything else inductively or abductively.

So you have now "gotten the memo" on whether you can or cannot logically prove a negative.

Please enjoy the rest of your day and accept my apologies for yet once again being insufferable.

Comments? Rave Reviews? Observations? Deranged Rants?


cc @Terese


Proving Negatives

You Can Prove A Negative

Evidence of Absence

Burden of Proof

The Mythic Difficulty in Proving a Negative

Argument from Ignorance

________________________
FOOTNOTES:
1) I refer, of course, to the tiny handful of professional logicians that I myself long ago used to know when I was a young and stunningly handsome² philosophy major with a concentration in logic and epistemology. I mean, what on earth did you think I meant by "all or almost all logicians"?
2) I am here citing my esteemed mother's opinion of my natural male beauty. She once or twice said I was "handsome". I've added the "stunning" myself because I am certain she meant that too, but just forgot to say it. And of course, mom would never lie to me. Never!
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Moreover, I've come across papers in peer-reviewed journals that argue persuasively (in my opinion) that you can indeed prove a negative -- just as well as you can prove anything else (and prove them inductively, deductively, and abductively).

Links to these papers?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Now, I'm no expert at logic but the Law of Non-Contradiction or the Law of Contradiction. states something like...

If A is equal to B then A cannot also be not equal to B.

So if you can prove that A = B then by inference you have proved the negative.

That's easy with algebra and maths and stuff but when you get onto the hard stuff such as "Does god exist?" to prove the negative in that case you have to prove that God exists first. to be able to say god doesn't exist.
I don't think you are any further forward?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
To: To Whomever it May Concern
From: Your Doting Uncle Sunstone
Date: March, 23, 2018
Subject: Have You Gotten "the Memo" Yet On Proving a Negative?


In folk logic, it is impossible to prove a negative. So it is impossible, according to folk logicians, to prove that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster, God, Bigfoot, and @Debater Slayer's morals don’t exist.

Even some pretty bright bulbs in such power-house disciplines as physics, chemistry, biology, and erotic dance are on record here and there as saying things like, "One of the laws of logic is that you cannot prove a negative".

*cough* *cough* However, all or almost all professional logicians would laugh at such a notion. "Hah! Hah!", they would laugh! "Hah! Hah!" (<--------- Disclaimer: This is a mere simulation of logicians laughing. Real logicians might or might not laugh in a similar manner. No logicians were hurt during the creation of this simulation.)

Seriously, I have yet to come across even a single paper by a professional in logic or in epistemology that says you can't prove a negative. Not one!

Moreover, I've come across papers in peer-reviewed journals that argue persuasively (in my opinion) that you can indeed prove a negative -- just as well as you can prove anything else (and prove them inductively, deductively, and abductively).

Just one example here, just one example, to keep things short and to the point:

One of the most basic rules or laws of logic is called the "Law of Non-Contradiction". Here's one formulation of it: "A proposition cannot be both true and not true at the same time." Nothing is both true and false at the same moment.

Please take a moment to notice that the law is a negative statement.


Now, I won't go into the gory details here, but you can actually prove that law is true, prove it according to rigorous, air-tight, reasoning (although it's a little complicated). So, right off the bat, with a very basic law of logic, we have a case of proving the negative.

Inductively and abductively speaking, you can also prove negatives! To be precise, you can prove them just as well as you can prove anything else inductively or abductively.

So you have now "gotten the memo" on whether you can or cannot logically prove a negative.

Please enjoy the rest of your day and accept my apologies for yet once again being insufferable.

Comments? Rave Reviews? Observations? Deranged Rants?


cc @Terese


The Mythic Difficulty in Proving a Negative

Argument from Ignorance

I believe this is an unethical manipulative approach to the problem of proving a negative.

For example: The problem of the Law of Contradiction is not truly equivalent to proving the negative just because the proposition is worded in the negative. It is indeed the requirement a positive proof involving a contradiction, and whether the contradiction exists or not.

More genuine fallacies of proving a negative are straight forward problematic fallacies such as proving God(s), Unicorns, Sasquatch, fairies and 'objective morality' do not exist.

The burden of proof of remains with those making the proposition remains where the 'Buck stops,' and the requirement that they prove the positive.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
I believe this is an unethical manipulative approach to the problem of proving a negative.

For example: The problem of the Law of Contradiction is not truly equivalent to proving the negative just because the proposition is worded in the negative. It is indeed a positive proof involving a contradiction, and not truly proving the negative,
Despite the end result that a negative is proven?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Usually, though, the claim that you can't prove a negative is actually a claim that you cna't prove the non-existence of something. Well, of course, that is also incorrect. You can prove the non-existence of any x with x!=x.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
To: To Whomever it May Concern
From: Your Doting Uncle Sunstone
Date: March, 23, 2018
Subject: Have You Gotten "the Memo" Yet On Proving a Negative?


In folk logic, it is impossible to prove a negative. So it is impossible, according to folk logicians, to prove that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster, God, Bigfoot, and @Debater Slayer's morals don’t exist.

Even some pretty bright bulbs in such power-house disciplines as physics, chemistry, biology, and erotic dance are on record here and there as saying things like, "One of the laws of logic is that you cannot prove a negative".

*cough* *cough* However, all or almost all professional logicians would laugh at such a notion. "Hah! Hah!", they would laugh! "Hah! Hah!" (<--------- Disclaimer: This is a mere simulation of logicians laughing. Real logicians might or might not laugh in a similar manner. No logicians were hurt during the creation of this simulation.)

Seriously, I have yet to come across even a single paper by a professional in logic or in epistemology that says you can't prove a negative. Not one!

Moreover, I've come across papers in peer-reviewed journals that argue persuasively (in my opinion) that you can indeed prove a negative -- just as well as you can prove anything else (and prove them inductively, deductively, and abductively).

Just one example here, just one example, to keep things short and to the point:

One of the most basic rules or laws of logic is called the "Law of Non-Contradiction". Here's one formulation of it: "A proposition cannot be both true and not true at the same time." Nothing is both true and false at the same moment.

Please take a moment to notice that the law is a negative statement.

Now, I won't go into the gory details here, but you can actually prove that law is true, prove it according to rigorous, air-tight, reasoning (although it's a little complicated). So, right off the bat, with a very basic law of logic, we have a case of proving the negative.

Inductively and abductively speaking, you can also prove negatives! To be precise, you can prove them just as well as you can prove anything else inductively or abductively.

So you have now "gotten the memo" on whether you can or cannot logically prove a negative.

Please enjoy the rest of your day and accept my apologies for yet once again being insufferable.

Comments? Rave Reviews? Observations? Deranged Rants?


cc @Terese


Proving Negatives

Evidence of Absence

The Mythic Difficulty in Proving a Negative

Argument from Ignorance
But we know this. Famously, absence of evidence of aether induced velocity change of light waves was conclusive evidence for the absence of aether.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
In folk logic, it is impossible to prove a negative. So it is impossible, according to folk logicians, to prove that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster, God, Bigfoot, and @Debater Slayer's morals don’t exist.
And in “folk logic” or practical evidential terms, that remains true. It isn’t true in formal logic but there is a step between establishing formal logical positions and applying them to the real world. In formal logic terms, the problem is in accurately defining the assumptions and predicates.

Another relevant difference exists between something being possible to prove and human beings being capable of proving it.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I was interested to see the source of the paper and confirm that the OPs summary appeared accurate.

I'm at least half going on memory from my university days 40 years ago, so the OP might be wrong or outdated by developments since then, but I don't think so. Some things tend not to change.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Both misunderstood what I said. You can prove the non-existence of an x with x!=x. So, for example, it is not true that 2!=2, so 2 does NOT satisfy the required property.

The x is on both sides of the inequality here.

The point is that it is an axiom that for all x, x=x.
What? You said any x. And 2! Does =2. I must be missing something. Please explain.

Do we agree that 2!=2?
 
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