Government Sails Along More Smoothly Than Some Think

[Revoltingest]

This OP challenges claims that Trump is a nascent Hitler, portending a path like Nazi Germany's....or that he's a "god emperor", bent on ending democracy....or that....you get the picture. A problem is that some feel such anger & fear, that Trump demonization overwhelms judgement of what's actually happening with government. We can disagree about which progress is good, & which is bad, but I argue that the business of government is nonetheless proceeding in an orderly fashion.

The trick: Take Trump out of the picture. Consider only the record of what government has actually done to date. (Of coure, this could all change overnight. But we face that when it happens.) It's ordinary that not all on the left or right are happy with the new policies & leaders. But for the moment, we see orderly (albeit raucous) conduct of the business of government.
A few signs of non-failure....
- No new wars.
- New USSC justice confirmed.
- Appropriations bills have passed with only 2 short shutdowns (the Feb 9 one being the shortest in history).
- The economy hums along.
- Gay folk still get married & join the military.

Ref.....
Latest appropriations bill:
H.R.1892 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Bipartisan Budget Act of 2018
After temporary shutdown, Congress passes two-year spending deal

Anyone see actual failure (not mere disagreement with
a policy, or objection to you-know-who's behavior)?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I think Trump is a racist bigot, a misogynist, and the embodiment of greed and sloth. But it's that last thing that's the reason I don't agree he's the next Hitler. He's too busy whining on Twitter at 3 in the morning to put the kind of investment being a tyrant needs. He complained endlessly about how much harder being the president was than what he thought. He'll take his ill gotten gains from the deals he strikes while he's in office then slide back into the swamp he came from.

****ty things which have happened:
Repeal of net neutrality,
Normalization of demonizing the press to push through bold faced lies,
Obstruction of justice through using firings as a way to interfere with investigations,
Cancelling the trans Pacific partnership,
Denying trans military service,
The Muslim ban,
Continuing to push for the wall, damaging our relationship with Mexico with the 'and we will make them pay for it.'
Saber rattling with N Korea in an exceptionally childsh manner damages fragile relations.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think Trump is a racist bigot, a misogynist, and the embodiment of greed and sloth. But it's that last thing that's the reason I don't agree he's the next Hitler. He's too busy whining on Twitter at 3 in the morning to put the kind of investment being a tyrant needs. He complained endlessly about how much harder being the president was than what he thought. He'll take his ill gotten gains from the deals he strikes while he's in office then slide back into the swamp he came from.

I understand that you loathe Trump.
But setting this aside....
Any opinion about how government is functioning?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I understand that you loathe Trump.
But setting this aside....
Any opinion about how government is functioning?

I hit enter post accidentally (using my phone). I've added more. Still more to add but it's a start.

 

[Revoltingest]

****ty things which have happened:
Repeal of net neutrality,
Normalization of demonizing the press to push through bold faced lies,
Obstruction of justice through using firings as a way to interfere with investigations,
Cancelling the trans Pacific partnership,
Denying trans military service,
The Muslim ban,
Continuing to push for the wall, damaging our relationship with Mexico with the 'and we will make them pay for it.'
Saber rattling with N Korea in an exceptionally childsh manner damages fragile relations.

Those things aren't so abnormal in a functioning government.
The issue I'm raising is independent of liking or disliking the
government's policies....it's about getting things done.
An example would be the passing of Obamacare...while I don't
like it, I see it as government passing legislation, ie, functioning.

The things you cite are merely things you dislike. But they signify
that the 3 branches are accomplishing things....sometimes what
the Prez wants...sometimes what he doesn't want. But this is normal
for a functioning federal government.

Btw, I dislike some of government's accomplishments too.
And at times, I've really enjoyed gridlock.

 

[sun rise]

I understand that you loathe Trump.
But setting this aside....
Any opinion about how government is functioning?

The Republicans are bankrupting the country with the out of control deficits (tax cut for the wealth).

The administration continues to attack the rule of law.

Incompetence is a virtue for joining his administration.

Agencies which are acting in the public interest are being destroyed piecemeal.

The fan is running. The dung has not hit yet. Everything was fine on the Titanic until it crashed into the iceberg. That's my feeling.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Those things aren't so abnormal in a functioning government.
The issue I'm raising is independent of liking or disliking the
government's policies....it's about getting things done.
An example would be the passing of Obamacare...while I don't
like it, I see it as government passing legislation, ie, functioning.

The things you cite are merely things you dislike. But they signify
that the 3 branches are accomplishing things....sometimes what
the Prez wants...sometimes what he doesn't want. But this is normal
for a functioning federal government.

Btw, I dislike some of government's accomplishments too.
And at times, I've really enjoyed gridlock.

So if just movement of some sort is a positive then does that make the systematic and categorical removal of what was accomplished by the last administration a bad thing?

 

[Revoltingest]

The Republicans are bankrupting the country with the out of control deficits (tax cut for the wealth).

This is actually the normal state of government, ie, spending & borrowing.
I don't like it, but it's what Dems & Pubs generally agree to.

Looks like deficit spending is the norm, eh?

The administration continues to attack the rule of law.

This deals with Trump's behavior, but not changes in governmental policies.

Incompetence is a virtue for joining his administration.

That's an opinion of the administration, but not of whether government is functioning.

Agencies which are acting in the public interest are being destroyed piecemeal.

No agencies have disappeared, turmoil & drama within notwithstanding

The fan is running. The dung has not hit yet. Everything was fine on the Titanic until it crashed into the iceberg. That's my feeling.

This thread isn't about feelings.
It's about whether government is functioning by effecting policies.

 

[Revoltingest]

So if just movement of some sort is a positive then does that make the systematic and categorical removal of what was accomplished by the last administration a bad thing?

It's not about "positive" or "negative" in the minds of an individual.
Dems & Pubs are agreeing upon things, & measures are passing
in Congress (whether you or I like them or not).

What is not happening: The dire predictions of a Nazi dictatorship.
Now that would be a failure of government to function.

 

[YmirGF]

So if just movement of some sort is a positive then does that make the systematic and categorical removal of what was accomplished by the last administration a bad thing?

Nope. The next president after Trump can do exactly the same thing.

It's not about "positive" or "negative" in the minds of an individual.
Dems & Pubs are agreeing upon things, & measures are passing in Congress (whether you or I like them or not).

What is not happening: The dire predictions of a Nazi dictatorship. Now that would be a failure of government to function.

I think it's remarkable that anything has gotten through due to the toxicity in politics these days. It's almost refreshing.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Nope. The next president after Trump can do exactly the same thing.


I think it's remarkable that anything has gotten through due to the toxicity in politics these days. It's almost refreshing.

I don't. I think that this administration is all about toxicity. And that all Trump has been 'accomplishing' is nothing at all. Just removing what was done by the last guy. And if that's all that's going to be done in the forseeable future, the government isn't functioning, it's spinning its wheels.

Worse, the supposed addressing political cronysm has just increased while pretending to 'drain the swamp.' But it's okay because it's not Hillary or Obama.

 

[YmirGF]

I don't. I think that this administration is all about toxicity. And that all Trump has been 'accomplishing' is nothing at all. Just removing what was done by the last guy. And if that's all that's going to be done in the forseeable future, the government isn't functioning, it's spinning its wheels.

Worse, the supposed addressing political cronysm has just increased while pretending to 'drain the swamp.' But it's okay because it's not Hillary or Obama.

You're such a radical, but I like you. Wouldn't it be a boring world if we all thought the same?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

- No new wars.

But engaging in brinkmanship that can start it, plus the bombing of Syria and dropping a MOAB and continued drone strikes.

- New USSC justice confirmed.

If the government were running smoothly, that appointment would have been made under Obama.

- Gay folk still get married & join the military.

But transgender people have been targeted and gains in rights and liberties receded.
Really, I'd prefer more years of dreadlock than what the government is getting done. We'd all be better off for it.

 

[Revoltingest]

But engaging in brinkmanship that can start it, plus the bombing of Syria and dropping a MOAB and continued drone strikes.

This was a continuation of policies of prior administrations.
You & I don't like them, but they don't disprove the claim of a fully functioning government.

If the government were running smoothly, that appointment would have been made under Obama.

The sky-has-fallen claims about government are being made about this administration.
So this thread only deals with that.
Nonetheless, what you've cited shows one thing working more smoothly than under Obama.

But transgender people have been targeted and gains in rights and liberties receded.
Really, I'd prefer more years of dreadlock than what the government is getting done. We'd all be better off for it.

This is an unfortunate change in policy, but such things happen in a functioning government.
Btw, I too am a big fan of gridlock.
But this is the opposite of it.

 

[Politesse]

This OP challenges claims that Trump is a nascent Hitler, portending a path like Nazi Germany's....or that he's a "god emperor", bent on ending democracy....or that....you get the picture. A problem is that some feel such anger & fear, that Trump demonization overwhelms judgement of what's actually happening with government. We can disagree about which progress is good, & which is bad, but I argue that the business of government is nonetheless proceeding in an orderly fashion.

The trick: Take Trump out of the picture. Consider only the record of what government has actually done to date. (Of coure, this could all change overnight. But we face that when it happens.) It's ordinary that not all on the left or right are happy with the new policies & leaders. But for the moment, we see orderly (albeit raucous) conduct of the business of government.
A few signs of non-failure....
- No new wars.
- New USSC justice confirmed.
- Appropriations bills have passed with only 2 short shutdowns (the Feb 9 one being the shortest in history).
- The economy hums along.
- Gay folk still get married & join the military.

Ref.....
Latest appropriations bill:
H.R.1892 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Bipartisan Budget Act of 2018
After temporary shutdown, Congress passes two-year spending deal

Anyone see actual failure (not mere disagreement with
a policy, or objection to you-know-who's behavior)?

As a government employee myself, I can only testify that insofar as my own segment of it is concerned (education) we have indeed been humming along about as well as we ever do. But that this is in large part because we are all stalwartly ignoring the mostly non-existent direction of the DeVos/Trump branch, and simply relying on our own well-worn praxis to keep the discipline afloat. If anything, the ghost of Obama seems to have a lot more pull than the present administration, because a lot of his programs, policies, and initiatives are still alive and well, and the current government has made only limited futile attempts to replace them. There's no guarantee that this will last; I think we are benefiting from Trump's obsession with other programs and issues, and lazy-corporate habit of letting underlings do their work unsupervized unless they cause bad PR somehow.

I don't think you are right about the sky not being in danger of falling; the appearance of stability has a lot to do with the relentless resistance his regime is facing from most of the rest of his government, and this firebreak has already been penetrated by blunt force in several areas (immigration prosecution, wilderness management) and will continue to be whittled down as the years of this administration continue. With the headcount in the upper echelons being as it is, and Trump's general inablility to fill gov't positions, even retirements and transfers are a threat to our government's ability to perform basic functions. We lose competent people by the month, and they aren't being replaced.

 

[Revoltingest]

As a government employee myself, I can only testify that insofar as my own segment of it is concerned (education) we have indeed been humming along about as well as we ever do. But that this is in large part because we are all stalwartly ignoring the mostly non-existent direction of the DeVos/Trump branch, and simply relying on our own well-worn praxis to keep the discipline afloat. If anything, the ghost of Obama seems to have a lot more pull than the present administration, because a lot of his programs, policies, and initiatives are still alive and well, and the current government has made only limited futile attempts to replace them. There's no guarantee that this will last; I think we are benefiting from Trump's obsession with other programs and issues, and lazy-corporate habit of letting underlings do their work unsupervized unless they cause bad PR somehow.

I don't think you are right about the sky not being in danger of falling; the appearance of stability has a lot to do with the relentless resistance his regime is facing from most of the rest of his government, and this firebreak has already been penetrated by blunt force in several areas (immigration prosecution, wilderness management) and will continue to be whittled down as the years of this administration continue. With the headcount in the upper echelons being as it is, and Trump's general inablility to fill gov't positions, even retirements and transfers are a threat to our government's ability to perform basic functions. We lose competent people by the month, and they aren't being replaced.

Oh, I never said the sky can't fall.
But this judgement should be based upon something more
solid than anguished losers calling Trump "Hitler!".

I like your observation about bureaucratic resistance to change.
Sometimes it's good....sometimes it's bad...but systems are
made more stable by resistance to change.
Keep me posted on your experience in government. After
all the purpose of this thread is to look at empirical data.