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Gravitational Waves. oh really?

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Light doesn't have mass.


Space warping is somethibng different. It's a clever way of sidetracking the limitations. It's already been done with super-sonic torpedoes for water. You break the barrier by creating a bubble, pushed the medium around you. So technically, a space warping ship is travelling below the speed limit inside the bubble.
and I saw it written somewhere......
as mass approaches the speed of light the value of mass goes to infinity....

and don't the numbers (that most people rely on for comprehension)......indicate.....
exceeding the speed of light distorts space.....
you just have to go fast enough to warp it
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
and I saw it written somewhere......
as mass approaches the speed of light the value of mass goes to infinity....
Something like that.

That's why things that are not light can't become light, because light is a massless wave-particle.

and don't the numbers (that most people rely on for comprehension)......indicate.....
exceeding the speed of light distorts space.....
you just have to go fast enough to warp it
I see what you're saying. The objects mass would bend space.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Something like that.

That's why things that are not light can't become light, because light is a massless wave-particle.


I see what you're saying. The objects mass would bend space.
I still lean away of the gravity wave idea.....
seems a steady relentless pull to me....
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
as for becoming light.....
I do believe we will never leave the solar system in physical form as we know it now.

we must become light.
and if not....the journey to any place will exceed out mortality
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I see what you're saying. The objects mass would bend space.

this much I have not yet accepted.
no matter what I do of myself and my travels....
the universe will not be affected.

the sun, the moon and the stars, will remain the same.
the space between must remain in place as is.

I suppose you could submit....
my presence in physical form has an affect to everything in my locale.
in theory my position on this earth could offset the rotation and the orbit.
but that would be pulling straws.....reeeeeaaaal thiiiiin ones.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
this much I have not yet accepted.
no matter what I do of myself and my travels....
the universe will not be affected.
But it is affect, right now.

The fact that your body is producing heat is changing the close microclimate around you, or that you breathe and change the chemical composition of the air where you are right now.

the sun, the moon and the stars, will remain the same.
the space between must remain in place as is.
They are changing though. The recession of our planet is constantly changing for instance, and the angle as well. In 13,000 years, the axis won't point to the north star to towards Vega.

I suppose you could submit....
my presence in physical form has an affect to everything in my locale.
in theory my position on this earth could offset the rotation and the orbit.
but that would be pulling straws.....reeeeeaaaal thiiiiin ones.
Well, it was a theoretical thing about increasing speed would increase mass.

Do mass warp space? Yeah, as far as we know. It's even been used to observe distant objects through the lensing effect, around the sun and galaxies and such.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I sense there is remains a great divide in our perspectives.

should I gain the speed of light (sol), my coming and going might seem 'warped'
and the visual of stars as I pass might well appear as they do in Star Trek episodes and movies.

but this item (me) would not pull anything notably out of place as I go flashing by
the 'warp' of space ( believe) is an illusion.
created by the numbers we use trying to comprehend what we see over head.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
I don't have to. The first sentence indicates a fatal flaw and a fundamental misunderstanding of BOTH Galilean AND modern (i.e., special and general) relativity. It is impossible for two spaceships to be "unmoving" because

If we send a light signal such that it consistently takes the same amount of time to bounce between them, over and over again
then
the two space ships are unmoving.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
Your misunderstandings of relativity are noted.
.

Relativity is 90% misunderstandings.
Really.

Take some time on this.

time-dilation.jpg


Then think about it some more,
instead of just memorizing formulae and taking it on faith that they work.

;-j
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Relativity is 90% misunderstandings.
Really.
A big claim that I yet to see evidence for.
Then think about it some more,
Your thought experiment only considers the reference frame of point C. You should also consider the reference frames of each ship while taking relativity of simultaneity into account. Their reference frames will not be the same as that of point C.
instead of just memorizing formulae and taking it on faith that they work.
I don't need faith when experiment after experiment has borne out the predictions of relativity.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
A big claim that I yet to see evidence for.

Your thought experiment only considers the reference frame of point C. You should also consider the reference frames of each ship while taking relativity of simultaneity into account. Their reference frames will not be the same as that of point C.

I don't need faith when experiment after experiment has borne out the predictions of relativity.

Absolutely the experiment considers all the reference frames.
You did not read it properly.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
Your thought experiment implies that both ships reach point C simultaneously in their own reference frames. They do not. They only arrive simultaneously in point C's reference frame.

They must arrive at the same time as they are mirror images of each other in all respects.
This is true in all reference frames.
This disproves time dilation in special relativity.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
They must arrive at the same time as they are mirror images of each other in all respects.
They are only mirror images of each other in point C's reference frame. Don't forget, in a given object's reference frame, it is the one standing still and other objects are the ones that are moving. So from ship A's perspective, it is sitting still while point C and ship B are both moving towards it at different speeds. So ship B doesn't look equivalent to ship A in ship A's reference frame.
This is true in all reference frames.
No it isn't. Each ship will see itself arrive at point C before it sees the other ship arrive. Let's say both ships are travelling at 0.9c in the reference frame of point C. In ship A's reference frame, it is sitting still while point C is moving towards it at 0.9c instead. Using the equation (u+v/1+uv/c^2), ship B is seen by ship A to be moving towards it at ~0.994c. Let's also say that the initial distance between each ship and point C is 1 million kilometers. Point C has to travel 1 million kilometers to reach ship A and, at 0.9c, this will take ~3.7 seconds. Ship B, on the other hand, has to travel twice the distance (2 million kilometers) and, at 0.994c, ship B will arrive at ship A's position in ~6.7 seconds. Thus, in the reference frame of ship A, it arrives at point C (or point C arrives at it, depending on how you interpret it), before ship B does. The only way to make both ships arrive at the same time in ship A's reference frame would be if ship B was moving twice as fast as point C (1.8c, which is what you would get from simple velocity addition). Since this is a forbidden speed in relativity, it can't happen and both ships must therefore arrive at different times in each other's reference frames.
and you really did read 147?......and you thought about it?
Again, "I don't see anything in that post about how action-reaction has anything to do with velocity addition at relativistic speeds."
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If we send a light signal such that it consistently takes the same amount of time to bounce between them, over and over again
then
the two space ships are unmoving.
They are moving relative to one another. This is quite simple: consider two cars travelling parallel to one another at the same speed. Sound will repeatedly be detected as being transmitted basically instantaneously between them. Light is much, much faster. But this is all irrelevant. Your argument depends upon the notion that things like "time dilation" apply independently of an observer's reference frame and a violation of Galilean relativity not just special and general (Lorenz transformations weren't the first, as centuries before Einstein Galilean relativity required Galilean transformations). You treat time dilation as if it is supposed to apply to a universal coordinate system rather than an effect dependent upon a specific reference frame, and in concluding as you do you are actually (if unknowingly) arguing against the idea that there exists some universal "time" or "space". In other words, you provide a (admittedly unsound) argument for special relativistic effects and implications.
 
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