Growing UU/Unitarianism/Universalism

[lilithu]

I realized that I had hijacked Maize's thread on socializing within UU congregations and was taking it in the direction of the growth and decline of religious denominations and what may be the cause. Since that's something I'm very interested in, I decided to start another thread from the ongoing conversation.

I had asked harlandcat whether Unitarianism was growing, dying or staying the same in Britain and we pick up with his response...

Dying, unfortunately. 40 years ago, there were apparently about 15,000 Unitarians in Britain. Today, it is estimated that there are only about 6,000 of us.

Having said that, I went to GA a few months ago and 'numerical growth' was very much on the agenda. It was agreed that, if we were to survive as a movement, we would have to make 'numerical growth' a priority — which we have, at least on paper.

My view is that, if we are to grow, we need to take a closer look at the causes of this rather alarming rate of decline, otherwise we won't exist in 40 years time. We're not the only ones though — it's often been suggested that there won't be any Methodists left in Britain in 100 years either, if not sooner.

Mainline Protestantism is declining across the board in the U.S. too. Where Christians are gaining in numbers in the U.S. are the newer denominations like the Latter Day Saints (Mormons), and the Pentacostals and non-denominational, evangelical (usually conservative) congregations. I'm actually not sure about the state of Catholicism in the U.S. But overall, the trend is that Christianity as a whole is alive and well but shifting to the right.

Tho as I said, it seems to me that liberal traditions are growing too recently (tho not as much as the conservatives), so maybe what's happening is that moderates are declining and there is increased radicalization. Kinda matches the political landscape here too.

Wow! Well, I'm 17 and, apart from one or two very young children who sometimes come, I'm the youngest there by about 30 years. Except for the minister, who's about 28, it's mainly elderly ladies.

Wow, now I'm the one who's surprised. Happily surprised. Yes, because most Unitarians tend to be older I assumed that you were too. A 17 year old male deciding to go to church is unusual to say the least. (but wonderful) So then the question is, what drew you to Unitarianism?

I think in the U.S. UU is growing because 1) we finally have a president who understands the importance of the spiritual dimensions of religion (I'm talking about Bill Sinkford, president of the UUA, not George Bush, president of......I can't say it :sad4; 2) because in times of uncertainty people become more interested in religion and these are definately uncertain times; and 3) as I said above those people who do become more curious about religion are checking out the far right or the far left, not the middle.

 

[hartlandcat]

Mainline Protestantism is declining across the board in the U.S. too. Where Christians are gaining in numbers in the U.S. are the newer denominations like the Latter Day Saints (Mormons), and the Pentacostals and non-denominational, evangelical (usually conservative) congregations. I'm actually not sure about the state of Catholicism in the U.S. But overall, the trend is that Christianity as a whole is alive and well but shifting to the right.

As the established church, the Church of England, with its amazing weekly attendance rate of 1% of the population, is still perceived to dominate the face of Christianity here — probably because about a third of the population are members. Despite having a set liturgy, it is extremely varied in practice. Some parishes are essentially Catholic, with incense, rosaries, confession booths and the lot. Some parishes are Evangelical, or even Charismatic. And then, other parishes are essentially no different from the more Christian wing of the Unitarians (I think that British Unitarians are overall somewhat more Christian-orientated than American UUs anyway).

The traditional 'free churches' — Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Baptists, Quakers, Unitarians etc. — essentially 'peaked' in England towards the end of the 19th century and have been declining ever since. It is sometimes suggested that this is at least partly because of the increased tolerance for diversity within the Church of England which rendered the other denominations less necessary. Thus, as the Church of England has become more liberal (at least in part), the demand for the Unitarian Church has decreased.

Evangelical Christianity has been growing here as well, but probably not to the same extent as in the US. Generally, I find that people from notionally 'Christian' backgrounds have recently tended (in some cases) either to turn to Evangelical Christianity (often via the Alpha Course) or (in most cases) to reject any form of religion entirely. The result is that only 7% of the population now regularly attends a place of worship, many of whom are Muslims, and that only 44% of the population even believes in any sort of deity — at least according to some surveys I've seen.

I think that the main battle which British Unitarians face in our attempt to incite 'numerical growth' is not persuading people to choose our church over others, but rather persuading people that they should go to church at all. I tend not to admit that I go to church because I'll be seen as weird — and there's the whole difficulty with explaining what Unitarianism actually is in the first place (which I had to do in German to an evangelist at a station in Germany the other week, lol — she seemed to have vaguely heard of the Deutche Unitarier Religionsgemeinschaft at least).

Wow, now I'm the one who's surprised. Happily surprised. Yes, because most Unitarians tend to be older I assumed that you were too. A 17 year old male deciding to go to church is unusual to say the least. (but wonderful) So then the question is, what drew you to Unitarianism?

I find it interesting that you assumed that I'd joined the Unitarians deliberately, rather than been brought up with them, but you are in fact absolutely right. I first attended a Unitarian congregation just over two years ago. A few months beforehand, I was very seriously considering becoming a Bahá'í, mainly because I found the universalist teachings of Bahá'u'lláh appealing. However, I had some difficulties with the Bahá'í Faith, namely the obviously Islamic cultural base (not that I'm against that in principle, but it's just not what I am) and the fact that the authorities seem to have an official position on absolutely everything. So I decided not to go through with it, and was randomly reading www.religioustolerance.org and found the Unitarians. I then found the congregation nearest to where I live via www.unitarian.org.uk and went there one Sunday — I've never looked back since.

Oh, and I like singing hymns. So, have you always been a Unitarian, or?

I think in the U.S. UU is growing because 1) we finally have a president who understands the importance of the spiritual dimensions of religion (I'm talking about Bill Sinkford, president of the UUA

So, to what extent does Bill Sinkford (or any other UUA president) show him/herself? Equally, does the UUA 'promote' itself in some way, or is it something that people in general just seem to know of?

 

[lilithu]

As the established church, the Church of England, with its amazing weekly attendance rate of 1% of the population, is still perceived to dominate the face of Christianity here — probably because about a third of the population are members. Despite having a set liturgy, it is extremely varied in practice. Some parishes are essentially Catholic, with incense, rosaries, confession booths and the lot. Some parishes are Evangelical, or even Charismatic. And then, other parishes are essentially no different from the more Christian wing of the Unitarians (I think that British Unitarians are overall somewhat more Christian-orientated than American UUs anyway).

I think that the Episcopalians are rather varied in the U.S. as well, tho maybe less so than what you describe. There is a lot of variation in terms of socio-political leanings with some Episcopalians being quite liberal and others being quite conservative. But my impression (and I admit to drawing inferences on little data here) is that the practice is rather uniform in terms of liturgy etc. In the U.S., Episcopalians are often seen as "Catholic-light". That may be meant as an insult but I don't mean it that way. I like the Catholics, and also appreciate the idea of a less rigid version of the things I like about Catholicism. lunamoth sometimes pops her head into the UU forums. Maybe she'll fill us in on the state of Episcopalianism in the U.S.

In terms of British Unitarians being generally more Christian than U.S. Unitarians, yes, my impression is the same. Emerson basically stripped American Unitarianism of its Christian orientation early on. But I've heard that some British Unitarians are exploring Buddhism etc and that you guys are getting a little more pluralistic, tho still decidedly theistic. And some UUs are headed back towards Christianity. (Actually, a couple in my church have left to join the Episcopalians, which is cool.)

The traditional 'free churches' — Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Baptists, Quakers, Unitarians etc. — essentially 'peaked' in England towards the end of the 19th century and have been declining ever since. It is sometimes suggested that this is at least partly because of the increased tolerance for diversity within the Church of England which rendered the other denominations less necessary. Thus, as the Church of England has become more liberal (at least in part), the demand for the Unitarian Church has decreased.

Yeah, I've heard that. The same forces that liberalized religion have made liberal religion obsolete.

It's also the case that we are a product of the Enlightenment and all its great hopes. Humanity rising higher, onward and upward. With the two world wars and cold war of the 20th century, people kinda lost faith in that vision of the world. That's another explanation I've heard. There's probably truth to both.

Interesting that you list Congregationalists and Unitarians separately. In the U.S., Unitarians largely rose out of the congregationalists.

I think that the main battle which British Unitarians face in our attempt to incite 'numerical growth' is not persuading people to choose our church over others, but rather persuading people that they should go to church at all. I tend not to admit that I go to church because I'll be seen as weird — and there's the whole difficulty with explaining what Unitarianism actually is in the first place (which I had to do in German to an evangelist at a station in Germany the other week, lol — she seemed to have vaguely heard of the Deutche Unitarier Religionsgemeinschaft at least).

You're not alone in that. The U.S. has a lot more people who attend worship regularly, but not amongst the liberals. Within liberal circles church-going is viewed with apathy at best and usually disdain. "Only people who can't think for themselves go to church." I used to be embarassed to admit I attend church, but I'm also considerably older than you. For me I just got tired of trying to keep track of which "me" I was presenting to others. So now I say, this is who I am, take it or leave it. But I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to deal with the hassle of having to explain yourself. Even now, I still occasionally have trouble explaining what a UU is.

I find it interesting that you assumed that I'd joined the Unitarians deliberately, rather than been brought up with them, but you are in fact absolutely right. I first attended a Unitarian congregation just over two years ago. A few months beforehand, I was very seriously considering becoming a Bahá'í, mainly because I found the universalist teachings of Bahá'u'lláh appealing. However, I had some difficulties with the Bahá'í Faith, namely the obviously Islamic cultural base (not that I'm against that in principle, but it's just not what I am) and the fact that the authorities seem to have an official position on absolutely everything. So I decided not to go through with it, and was randomly reading www.religioustolerance.org and found the Unitarians. I then found the congregation nearest to where I live via www.unitarian.org.uk and went there one Sunday — I've never looked back since.

Oh, and I like singing hymns. So, have you always been a Unitarian, or?

lol, it did occur to me that you might have just been raised in the church. But I was willing to bet that you were a convert because 1) at least in the U.S. there are so few UUs who are raised in and stay in our faith; and 2) you strike me as very interested in the state Unitarianism, and most people who are raised in their faiths are less interested in that than are recent converts. They kind of take it for granted whereas we're like, "what is this thing that I've just joined?"

And from that you may guess that I am a "convert" too.

But why were you looking for a religion in the first place? I don't mean to pry; I was just thinking that your own experiences might help your church/denomination to grow, if you can identify what it is that speaks to you. I know you think you're unusual for going to church and you are, but my guess is that there are others out there who have some desire but are reluctant either because they don't want to be seen as "weird" or because they've had a less than inspiring experience and think that all religions are the same. At least I'm quite certain that's the case in the U.S. Granted, we've always been a more religious lot than you guys.

So, to what extent does Bill Sinkford (or any other UUA president) show him/herself? Equally, does the UUA 'promote' itself in some way, or is it something that people in general just seem to know of?

Some UUs complain that Sinkford shows himself too much; I think that's because we're so opposed to any appearance of coherence. Bill gives regular statements to the press and to UUs on relevant topics of the day. Maize posts a lot of them here but he makes even more than that. He goes to rallies and other religious/political events. He was here in Washington DC for the March for Women's LIves. He went to Israel when two UUs (Unitarians) were named "righteous among nations" (a great honor since they are only the 2nd and 3rd Americans to get that title). He will be in New Orleans to mark the anniversary of Katrina (altho because of scheduling he'll be a little late), where he'll talk about the role of racism and classism in that misery. American Unitarianism/UU is very politically engaged. Is it the same across the pond?

And yes, the UUA does promote itself, now. We've been notoriously bad about it but are just beginning to in the last couple of years (again from Sinkford's influence). Right now, if you go to the UUA website (www.uua.org), in the top right hand corner it will ask if you are visiting from either St. Louis or Southern California. That's because the UUA is running ad campaigns in those areas. I don't think you'll ever see us go door to door tho, or soliciting in the streets (unless it's to ask you to vote or sign a petition). Our approach has been to get the information out and if people are interested great; if they're not, that's fine too.

 

[hartlandcat]

In terms of British Unitarians being generally more Christian than U.S. Unitarians, yes, my impression is the same. Emerson basically stripped American Unitarianism of its Christian orientation early on. But I've heard that some British Unitarians are exploring Buddhism etc and that you guys are getting a little more pluralistic, tho still decidedly theistic. And some UUs are headed back towards Christianity.

Yes, there is certainly variation. The received wisdom is that about half of British Unitarians consider themselves Christians, whilst the other half do not. There's actually been a lot of debate over this issue, with some of the older pro-Christian people even advocating that the denomination be split —similar to what the German Unitarians did a few years ago, I think.

The official name is the General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches in Britain and Ireland (and actually also Denmark, but they tend to be forgotten). There was some talk at GA about how people from different religious backgrounds, such as a disillusioned Anglican vs. a disillusioned Sikh, would respond to this title. Would they see it as two different things — 'Unitarian' and 'Free Christian' — joined together in an umbrella organisation, or would they assume that 'Unitarians' and 'Free Christians' were essentially the same thing? These are all factors which need to be considered if we are serious about 'numerical growth'.

Yeah, I've heard that. The same forces that liberalized religion have made liberal religion obsolete.

And here's a question I've been considering recently: Do I want the Church of England to become more liberal so that values more in-line with Unitarian principles will be promoted? Or do I want the Church of England to become more conservative so that there might be an increased demand for denominations such as the Unitarians?

I used to be embarassed to admit I attend church, but I'm also considerably older than you. For me I just got tired of trying to keep track of which "me" I was presenting to others. So now I say, this is who I am, take it or leave it. But I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to deal with the hassle of having to explain yourself. Even now, I still occasionally have trouble explaining what a UU is.

Lol, I have this reputation at school for being 'The Unitarian'. I only joined that school last year, and it's different to my old school because about 30% of the pupils there are Muslims anyway, and there are also quite a lot of practising Christians (mainly Anglicans and Roman Catholics). So I'm perfectly happy to 'admit' that I'm a Unitarian and that I go to church there and I often wear my Unitarian badge on my blazer — it's also fascinating how the Muslims perceive me. Unfortunately, in my Religious Studies class, people seem to think of me as 'the weird Christian who doesn't believe in/rejects Jesus' — there'll usually be some mention of Unitarians during the course of the lesson, which is always amusing, even if they have totally the wrong idea about what we are.

lol, it did occur to me that you might have just been raised in the church. But I was willing to bet that you were a convert because 1) at least in the U.S. there are so few UUs who are raised in and stay in our faith; and 2) you strike me as very interested in the state Unitarianism, and most people who are raised in their faiths are less interested in that than are recent converts. They kind of take it for granted whereas we're like, "what is this thing that I've just joined?"

Haha! When they'd heard that I was a 'convert', a lot of people at GA were interested to know if I was considering training for the ministry. I quickly discovered that this is because, although most of the laity were brought up in the faith, most of the ministers are converts. It's certainly true though that converts often take things more seriously — same as how recent immigrants to a country can often be the most patriotic (thinking of some of the über-British 'Indians' I know).

So, do you find that the fact that most American UUs raised in the faith don't stay is because they join another church, or because they simply become disinterested?

And from that you may guess that I am a "convert" too.

So, what were you before, if anything?

But why were you looking for a religion in the first place?

Because I'm the sort of person who announced that I wanted to become Jewish when I was 7. LOL. Okay, so, like a lot of people here, I was brought up as vaguely Church of England, but hardly ever went to church. My primary school wasn't officially a church school, but it might as well have been — we sang Christian hymns and had collective Christian prayers every day in assembly, which I enjoyed, and would often change my mind about whether or not I believed in God, but never really gave it a great deal of thought. I was, however, always interested in religion in general, and I suppose that I regarded myself as a Christian of some sort.

Then I started joining internet forums (I was probably about 14 at the time), where I encountered American Evangelical Christians. Wow, I thought — there are people who actually believe in their religion! Then I found that these people believed that the Bible was the Inerrant Word of God and that people who didn't believe this that or the other would suffer Eternal Torture; I also discovered at this time that there really are still people who don't accept evolution and believe instead that the world is only 6,000 years old. The thing was, these people were presenting the view that their beliefs were the norm for 'Christians', and that I wasn't a Christian if I didn't accept them. I could not accept these views, so I began looking for a community which did not believe that certain theological beliefs were necessary, and this is where I ended up. I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Some UUs complain that Sinkford shows himself too much; I think that's because we're so opposed to any appearance of coherence. Bill gives regular statements to the press and to UUs on relevant topics of the day. Maize posts a lot of them here but he makes even more than that. He goes to rallies and other religious/political events.

That's interesting. Perhaps it would be beneficial if the lines of David Dawson and Ceila Midgley (our president and vice-president) followed similar lines — to speak up whenever something arises for which there could be a Unitarian view. But then, with a denomination of just 6,000 people, I should seriously consider getting more involved. So, how often does the UUA president change? We get a new one every year.

American Unitarianism/UU is very politically engaged. Is it the same across the pond?

We have a few Members of Parliament, and the GA often writes to the government. But we're certainly not in the public eye.

And yes, the UUA does promote itself, now. We've been notoriously bad about it but are just beginning to in the last couple of years (again from Sinkford's influence). Right now, if you go to the UUA website (www.uua.org), in the top right hand corner it will ask if you are visiting from either St. Louis or Southern California. That's because the UUA is running ad campaigns in those areas. I don't think you'll ever see us go door to door tho, or soliciting in the streets (unless it's to ask you to vote or sign a petition). Our approach has been to get the information out and if people are interested great; if they're not, that's fine too.

That's great — so what sort of advertisement campaigns does the UUA run?

 

[arthra]

Hartlandcat wrote:

"I was very seriously considering becoming a Bahá'í, mainly because I found the universalist teachings of Bahá'u'lláh appealing."

Nice to hear you were impressed Hartland!

- Art

 

[lilithu]

Yes, there is certainly variation. The received wisdom is that about half of British Unitarians consider themselves Christians, whilst the other half do not. There's actually been a lot of debate over this issue, with some of the older pro-Christian people even advocating that the denomination be split —similar to what the German Unitarians did a few years ago, I think.

Forgive me but you guys aren't big enough to split. A split would only further weaken you, inmsho.

The official name is the General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches in Britain and Ireland (and actually also Denmark, but they tend to be forgotten). There was some talk at GA about how people from different religious backgrounds, such as a disillusioned Anglican vs. a disillusioned Sikh, would respond to this title. Would they see it as two different things — 'Unitarian' and 'Free Christian' — joined together in an umbrella organisation, or would they assume that 'Unitarians' and 'Free Christians' were essentially the same thing? These are all factors which need to be considered if we are serious about 'numerical growth'.

When the Unitarians and the Universalists joined forces in 1961 we had similar considerations. We have historically had similar goals in terms of social justice but the Universalists tend to be more Christian oriented than the Unitarians. The Universalists were afraid that their identity would be swallowed up by the Unitarians (and to some extent they were right). And the Unitarians were afraid that the Universalist theology would be incompatible with Unitarianism. These tensions still exist 45 years later. Yet an unexpected thing happened; a new UU identity began to emerge from the two, as we sought to reconcile these "discrepancies."

What is the history of you official name? Did it result from a merger?

it's also fascinating how the Muslims perceive me.

I would think that an anti-trinitarian Christian would be well received, no? Tho pluralistic tendencies may not be so well received.

So, do you find that the fact that most American UUs raised in the faith don't stay is because they join another church, or because they simply become disinterested?

I would guess that most American UUs who leave do so because they become disinterested in religion in general. Traditionally, meaning in the last several decades, we were so enamored with rationalism that we stripped our worship services of any real worship. And in our efforts to be open-minded and accepting of other faiths, we failed to articulate what was special about our own faith. We didn't give our kids anything meaningful to hang on to. The unintended message was all religions are good; all religions are the same; it really doesn't matter which one you choose, or if you choose none. Faced with that nonchalance, most of our kids chose "none." I mean why bother to get up early on sunday morning if it doesn't matter anyway?

So, what were you before, if anything?

A religious mutt. I have aunts and uncles who are Buddhist. My parents are atheist/agnostic/unchurched, but they sent me to a Lutheran school as a kid. And like many UUs I was wary of organized religion but fascinated by spirituality, so I'd tried paganism, kabbalah, taoism... And many of my friends are Jewish and Hindu so I learned about those as well, tho I never seriously considered converting to either because they're both kinda "closed systems." It's not like they don't take converts but they don't encourage it either. They're happy with others being whatever they are as long as you let them be what they are. (I just love that!!) So yeah, I'm a religious mutt. And I could only be a UU because it was the only place that allowed me to embrace all of my history, where I didn't have to check anything at the door.

Because I'm the sort of person who announced that I wanted to become Jewish when I was 7. LOL.

Yup, you sound like one of us alright.

Okay, so, like a lot of people here, I was brought up as vaguely Church of England, but hardly ever went to church. My primary school wasn't officially a church school, but it might as well have been — we sang Christian hymns and had collective Christian prayers every day in assembly, which I enjoyed, and would often change my mind about whether or not I believed in God, but never really gave it a great deal of thought. I was, however, always interested in religion in general, and I suppose that I regarded myself as a Christian of some sort.

Then I started joining internet forums (I was probably about 14 at the time), where I encountered American Evangelical Christians. Wow, I thought — there are people who actually believe in their religion! Then I found that these people believed that the Bible was the Inerrant Word of God and that people who didn't believe this that or the other would suffer Eternal Torture; I also discovered at this time that there really are still people who don't accept evolution and believe instead that the world is only 6,000 years old. The thing was, these people were presenting the view that their beliefs were the norm for 'Christians', and that I wasn't a Christian if I didn't accept them. I could not accept these views, so I began looking for a community which did not believe that certain theological beliefs were necessary, and this is where I ended up. I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

That's the rub. On the one hand, like you I appreciate the fact that Evangelical Christians really believe and live their faith, whereas so many mainline Christians are Christian in name only. You're just born into this label. But otoh they tend to have a very narrow way of looking at things. Whereas a lot of people who are "tolerant" don't really stand for anything. Every week now I am surrounded by people who really believe and live our faith, and yet don't feel that everyone else has to be like us.

That's interesting. Perhaps it would be beneficial if the lines of David Dawson and Ceila Midgley (our president and vice-president) followed similar lines — to speak up whenever something arises for which there could be a Unitarian view. But then, with a denomination of just 6,000 people, I should seriously consider getting more involved. So, how often does the UUA president change? We get a new one every year.

Every year! How does the president get anything done?? I would think it would take a year just to learn the ropes. We elect a new president every four years, maximum of two terms, just like the we do for the guy in the White House. Bill Sinkford was re-elected for his second term in 2005 so he'll be around for a bit more. (I don't even know who our vice-president is. Maize, do we have a VP?)

That's great — so what sort of advertisement campaigns does the UUA run?

Billboards, radio ads... I dunno about tv. Not really crazy about our ad campaign: the uncommon denomination. It doesn't really tell anyone what we are other than we think of ourselves as different from the norm. That could mean anything. But hey; we're trying and maybe it works for other people.

 

[Green Gaia]

Bill Sinkford was re-elected for his second term in 2005 so he'll be around for a bit more. (I don't even know who our vice-president is. Maize, do we have a VP?)

Uhhhhh... let me look that up.... :run:

No! We have the President, a Moderator and then the Board of Trustees.

http://www.uua.org/TRUS/

(Fascinating thread, btw. I'm enjoying reading it. Thanks you two.)

 

[hartlandcat]

Sorry about the delay in reply -- I've just spent a lovely week in Scotland.

Forgive me but you guys aren't big enough to split. A split would only further weaken you, inmsho.

Absolutely. Such suggestions are not taken seriously by the big-wigs, and are probably made in general by Unitarians who are not particularly involved with the denomination at large.

What is the history of you official name? Did it result from a merger?

Sort of. The British and Foreign Unitarian Association was formed in 1828, bringing together three already-existing organisations. In 1881, the National Conference of Unitarian, Liberal Christian and other Non-Subscribing or Kindred Congregations was formed. Although this was initiated by the British and Foreign Unitarian Association, it remained simply a member of this National Conference, alongside a number of other groups. Then, in 1929, the whole thing joined together to form the General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches in Britain and Ireland.

However, the term 'Unitarians' is used to refer to us informally. Although many of our congregations have a distinctly Unitarian Christian ethos, I don't think that many (if any) maintain a distinctly 'Free Christian' identity anymore. I certainly didn't come across any 'Free Christians' who did not regard themselves as Unitarians at GA, which operated under the assumption that everyone who attended considered themsevles Unitarians. So, rather like the Universalists in the US in some ways, the 'Free Christians' became assimilated into a 'Unitarian' identity, but long enough ago such that it's seen as pretty irrelevant.

I would think that an anti-trinitarian Christian would be well received, no? Tho pluralistic tendencies may not be so well received.

Essentially, they see me as a sort of quasi-Muslim of 'Christian culture', partly because I said that I didn't believe in the Trintiy, that I instead viewed Jesus as a sort-of prophet, and that I was happy to accept Muhammad as a sort-of prophet as well. And they seem to prefer pluralistic tendancies which include Muhammand over exclusivist tendancies which exclude him. Of course, I what they probably don't know is that I also include a whole catalogue of other people, including Krishna, Buddha, Guru Nanak, Baha'u'llah and Zarathustra, amongst others, but I don't really feel the need to mention all that to them, especially as I don't really know all that much about those other individuals, except that they all taught what I'd call a Really Worthwhile Message.

Every year! How does the president get anything done?? I would think it would take a year just to learn the ropes. We elect a new president every four years, maximum of two terms, just like the we do for the guy in the White House. Bill Sinkford was re-elected for his second term in 2005 so he'll be around for a bit more.

Bearing in mind though that the vice-president automatically becomes the president the following year, unless they choose not to or perhaps if there were significant opposition. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what our president actually does. I had tended to assume that it was more of a symbolic role (like that of the Queen), rather than one which involves specific leadership, but I really don't know. Our system of government changed this year, but here's basically how it is now. We don't elect the president as such; we elect eight people plus an honorary treasurer every three years who form the Executative Committee, who in turn appoint the president and the vice-president. The Executative Committee also appoint four commissions (Denominational Support, Education & Training, Ministry, Outreach & Communication), who assist them. They are then supported by fifteen other committees, plus a number of panels, who deal with various issues. I don't know how one gets to join one of these, but I'm pretty sure that it's not democratic.

I suppose one could say that our president is more comparable to those of Germany and Italy, as they are elected by the elected government and wear a medal but don't appear to have a particularly influential role, whilst your president is more comparable to those of the United States and France, as they are elected directly by the people and seem to have significant leadership duties.

Billboards, radio ads... I dunno about tv. Not really crazy about our ad campaign: the uncommon denomination. It doesn't really tell anyone what we are other than we think of ourselves as different from the norm. That could mean anything. But hey; we're trying and maybe it works for other people.

We don't really have any advertisement campaign at the moment, other than those of individual churches. But this may be partly because it's illegal for religious groups to advertise on television or radio here.

The 'uncommon denomination' reminds me of what someone was saying at GA. The British Unitarians used to describe themselves as being 'outside the mainstream'. Apparently that slogan was scrapped because they believed that most British people probably thought along the same lines of the Unitarians, even if they hadn't even heard of us.

 

[uumckk16]

*pops head in on conversation* Wow, lots to read!

The result is that only 7% of the population now regularly attends a place of worship, many of whom are Muslims, and that only 44% of the population even believes in any sort of deity — at least according to some surveys I've seen.

Wow. It's amazing how different things are in different places around the world. According to Wikipedia (here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.#Religion) 46% of Americans attend religious services each week. Of course, they list Britain as 14% rather than 7%, but that's still a drastic difference.

I find it interesting that you assumed that I'd joined the Unitarians deliberately, rather than been brought up with them, but you are in fact absolutely right. I first attended a Unitarian congregation just over two years ago.

Huh, that's so strange - we have quite a bit in common. I'm 16, one of the few younger people in my congregation, and I too chose UU rather than being brought up in it.

In terms of British Unitarians being generally more Christian than U.S. Unitarians, yes, my impression is the same.

I get that impression as well. I think Unitarianism in general is more Christian outside the U.S. We have a partner church in Romania and the minister, his wife, and...some other important guy from their church came to visit this spring. Their minister gave a sermon and in what I could understand of what he said (he had a strong accent) he often referred to "the Lord" and maybe to the Bible, can't remember. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just different.

You're not alone in that. The U.S. has a lot more people who attend worship regularly, but not amongst the liberals. Within liberal circles church-going is viewed with apathy at best and usually disdain. "Only people who can't think for themselves go to church." I used to be embarassed to admit I attend church, but I'm also considerably older than you. For me I just got tired of trying to keep track of which "me" I was presenting to others. So now I say, this is who I am, take it or leave it. But I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to deal with the hassle of having to explain yourself. Even now, I still occasionally have trouble explaining what a UU is.

Hm, funny, I mean, certainly there is less church-going among the liberals I know than among the conservatives, but I've never felt any of them 'disdain' church-going. In fact I know several devout but liberal Christians. And in the less-than-a-year I have been attending church, I've never been afraid to admit it. Most people know what UU is, or have a general idea, although I admit I do have to explain it sometimes.

Some UUs complain that Sinkford shows himself too much; I think that's because we're so opposed to any appearance of coherence. Bill gives regular statements to the press and to UUs on relevant topics of the day. Maize posts a lot of them here but he makes even more than that.

Maybe it's just me, but I like that Rev. Sinkford is so involved. I've only been a UU since January but I've already heard him speak 3 times (once at my church, once at the UU Rally Before the Rally to Save Darfur, and once at the Darfur Rally that same day), and I find him inspiring. His daughter spoke at the Rally Before the Rally as well, and she was a very eloquent speaker, too.

Okay, so, like a lot of people here, I was brought up as vaguely Church of England, but hardly ever went to church. My primary school wasn't officially a church school, but it might as well have been — we sang Christian hymns and had collective Christian prayers every day in assembly, which I enjoyed, and would often change my mind about whether or not I believed in God, but never really gave it a great deal of thought. I was, however, always interested in religion in general, and I suppose that I regarded myself as a Christian of some sort.

Then I started joining internet forums (I was probably about 14 at the time), where I encountered American Evangelical Christians. Wow, I thought — there are people who actually believe in their religion! Then I found that these people believed that the Bible was the Inerrant Word of God and that people who didn't believe this that or the other would suffer Eternal Torture; I also discovered at this time that there really are still people who don't accept evolution and believe instead that the world is only 6,000 years old. The thing was, these people were presenting the view that their beliefs were the norm for 'Christians', and that I wasn't a Christian if I didn't accept them. I could not accept these views, so I began looking for a community which did not believe that certain theological beliefs were necessary, and this is where I ended up. I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Again, I'm amazed at how much we have in common. I too had a vaguely Christian-ish upbringing. The second paragraph is roughly the path I've been on for the past 10 months or so.

We elect a new president every four years, maximum of two terms, just like the we do for the guy in the White House.

Huh. Interesting. I didn't know there was a maximum of two terms.

Sorry for interrupting :run:

 

[hartlandcat]

Nice to hear from you! So, since you chose to become a UU yourself, what is the attitude of your parent(s)/guardian(s) towards this, assuming that you don't live on your own?

It was my idea initially, but my parents come with me, even if they were slightly reluctant at first.

As for Unitarians being more Christian-orientated outside the United States, yes, that's probably true in most cases, although it might be worth pointing out that the British Unitarians are probably closer to the American Unitarians than to the Romanian Unitarians in terms of their Christianness. One notable exception to this, however, would be the German Unitarians, who strike me as possibly being somewhat less Christian-orientated than the UUA.

 

[uumckk16]

Nice to hear from you! So, since you chose to become a UU yourself, what is the attitude of your parent(s)/guardian(s) towards this, assuming that you don't live on your own?

Oh, my parents are 100% supportive. My mom comes with me. When I said I had a vaguely Christian-ish background I meant my parents were both raised Christian but aren't anymore; my mom spent about a year when I was 5 taking me to a Congregationalist church, then a Quaker church, before deciding against it; my mom is now very interested in Buddhism; and we celebrate Christmas, more for tradition than anything. So when I mentioned to my mom that I'd like to visit the UU church near our house, she was all for the idea, and we've been going ever since

As for Unitarians being more Christian-orientated outside the United States, yes, that's probably true in most cases, although it might be worth pointing out that the British Unitarians are probably closer to the American Unitarians than to the Romanian Unitarians in terms of their Christianness. One notable exception to this, however, would be the German Unitarians, who strike me as possibly being somewhat less Christian-orientated than the UUA.

Yes, I've gotten that impression from what you've said about British Unitarians. Sounds interesting! The Germans are even less Christian-oriented than the UUA? lol...how?

Sorry to derail the thread

 

[lilithu]

Sorry to derail the thread

It's my thread and I say you're right on topic.