Guaranteed Income in the news...

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, that's not a debunking.

There's plenty of quotes here: http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/romancing-the-stone-cold.html

I don't care enough to post pretty much the entire article. The quotes are cited. So if you want to defend your hero, have at it. Phil even posted that in the thread you link to, so you've seen it before. I personally don't care that much about it and have been given no reason to think that those quotes are fabricated or misrepresented.

Even the quotes from her journal that Rand apologists like to point to in order to some how show how the "leftist scum" are lying about her, are actually her defending Hickman as some sort of tragic hero that society ruined and murdered! "Oh, he was such brilliant boy. He murdered and dismembered a little girl, but anyway, he was awesome and society ruined him."

See failed defense here: http://ultimatephilosopher.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-ayn-rand-idolized-child-killer-meme.html

You, yourself used some of those quotes in your (also) failed defense of her. Just face it - she had a love affair with a serial killer, albeit in her own mind. Whatever. A lot of people have a thing for psychopaths and serial killers. That was only a part of why I think she was likely a psychopath or least promoted traits associated with the personality disorder in the first place.

So you're citing an opinion piece you haven't even read, but expect me to search to find your supporting quotes?
Is there any quote from Rand herself justifying the claim she had a "love affair" with him?
Surely, you must have some basis other than someone else saying so in a hit piece.....something that she herself wrote?

Again, I ask the question, are you not the least bit suspicious that Rand favored individual rights, but approves of child murder?

 

[Revoltingest]

Implementing socialism is gradual increments until capitalism is no more. And, hopefully we'll do this before a major disaster and we have to transition suddenly rather than gradually, as a sudden transition will cause widespread instability.

How do you eliminate capitalism if some people still want to practice it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So you're citing an opinion piece you haven't even read.
Is there any quote from Rand justifying the claim she had a "love affair" with him?
Surely, you must have some basis other than someone else saying so.....something that she herself wrote?

Again, I ask the question, are you not the least bit suspicious that Rand favored individual rights, but approves of child murder?

You're just nitpicking at this point. I read the quotes. You can continue to stuff your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala!" all you want.

Favoring individual rights doesn't rule out tacit approval, whitewashing or apologetics for violating the rights of others. Anton LaVey, for example, loved Rand. He was also a libertarian of her sort, despised the hippies of his day for their egalitarianism and was a big fan of capitalism. But he also had a lifelong fascination with fascism, befriended neo-Nazis, promoted "might is right" thinking, crass selfishness, greed and a lack of empathy. I'm not saying those are necessarily traits of American capitalist libertarianism itself, but they aren't mutually exclusive things. For those sorts of libertarians, their own personal pleasure and happiness comes first, above that of others. They're concerned with themselves first. They tend to look down on the poor and "less fortunate" as somehow inherently deserving of their lot (even if they themselves fall into poverty, living in a dilapidated house in social isolation for years and finally end up dying a charity case in a Catholic hospital, as LaVey did). It's a very strange sort of doublethink that goes on with those types. They fetishize power and force. They want freedom and liberty, but really just as a way to exercise their own crass greed, regardless of its effects on others.

(Due to him and since his time, Satanism has had an unfortunate series of ties to right-wing ideologies, ranging from the broken down sort of "might is right, screw everyone else!" libertarianism I described above to full-blown neo-Nazism. You come across this stuff in the Western LHP a lot and it's quite sad, really, because that's a corruption of what Satan stands for, imo. But then, I'm not into their bastardized concept of Satan and rejected it a while ago.)

 

[Revoltingest]

You're just nitpicking at this point.

It's "nitpicking" to ask for your evidence?
Links to long hit pieces which make a poor case don't suffice.
You should be able to post an actual quote from Rand to prove your claim.
Don't suggest I'm in denial, when you either cannot or will not provide evidence.

Favoring individual rights doesn't rule out tacit approval, whitewashing or apologetics for violating the rights of others.

Then you have a very different understanding of individual rights.
I say they're for everyone, & that is the jist of Rand's books.

Anton LaVey, for example, loved Rand. He was also a libertarian of her sort, despised the hippies of his day for their egalitarianism and was a big fan of capitalism. But he also had a lifelong fascination with fascism, befriended neo-Nazis, promoted "might is right" thinking, crass selfishness, greed and a lack of empathy. I'm not saying those are necessarily traits of American capitalist libertarianism itself, but they aren't mutually exclusive things. For those sorts of libertarians, their own personal pleasure and happiness comes first, above that of others. They're concerned with themselves first. They tend to look down on the poor and "less fortunate" as somehow inherently deserving of their lot (even if they themselves fall into poverty, living in a dilapidated house in social isolation for years and finally end up dying a charity case in a Catholic hospital, as LaVey did). It's a very strange sort of doublethink that goes on with those types. They fetishize power and force. They want freedom and liberty, but really just as a way to exercise their own crass greed, regardless of its effects on others.

LaVey is a different person, & a deflection.
What he thinks doesn't determine what anyone else thinks.
Invoking claims about him doesn't replace your unpresented quotes from Rand.
I recommend reading what she wrote, not what detractors write about her.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's "nitpicking" to ask for your evidence?
Links to long hit pieces which make a poor case don't suffice.
You should be able to post an actual quote from Rand to prove your claim.
Don't suggest I'm in denial, when you either cannot or will not provide evidence.

Then you have a very different understanding of individual rights.
I say they're for everyone, & that is the jist of Rand's books.

LaVey is a different person.
What he thinks doesn't determine what anyone else thinks.
Invoking claims about him doesn't replace your unpresented quotes from Rand.
I recommend reading what she wrote, not what detractors write about her.

I said I wasn't going to post entire articles. I'm tired and it's late. If I can Google this stuff, read through it and post a link, you can click the link and look at it yourself. But I can't help it if you're lazier than me. I'd rather be playing video games, reading or watching porn right now.

 

[Revoltingest]

I said I wasn't going to post entire articles. I'm tired and it's late. If I can Google this stuff, read through it and post a link, you can click the link and look at it yourself. But I can't help it if you're lazier than me. I'd rather be playing video games, reading or watching porn right now.

I've read hit pieces about Rand before.
I've never found anything even remotely cromulent.
I don't want to read any more just because you say I'll find something.
You're the one making the claim about her love affair with him.
You either have evidence or you don't.
I'm watching How It's Made.
They're making food trucks.
And I just ate soup.
Or did I drink soup?
No verb seems right.
I'm digressing.
But that's prolly a relief, eh?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I've read hit pieces about Rand before.
I've never found anything even remotely cromulent.
I don't want to read any more just because you say I'll find something.
You're the one making the claim about her love affair with him.
You either have evidence or you don't.
I'm watching How It's Made.
They're making food trucks.
And I just ate soup.
Or did I drink soup?
No verb seems right.
I'm digressing.
But that's prolly a relief, eh?

The evidence is all out there for you to see, you're just choosing to ignore it or know about it and don't wish to admit the reality of it because you're such a fanboy of hers. (I'm quite positive you've read this stuff before, anyway.) It doesn't really matter to me, personally. I've long been fascinated with serial killers and mass murderers. When I was a teenager and much more unhinged than I am now, I even idolized a few (like the Columbine killers - so stereotypical of me). So if Rand had a thing for a murderer, that was her little fetish. It seems clear to me how she felt about him, anyway.

But I can't give a **** anymore about this little derailment. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Revoltingest]

The evidence is all out there for you to see....

So you say.
But I've looked before, & found naught.

..... you're just choosing to ignore it or know about it and don't wish to admit the reality of it.....

Can you show me what it is that I'm ignoring?

.....because you're such a fanboy of hers.

Or is it that you know you despise her, & you have faith the evidence is out there, but you just can't find it.

(I'm quite positive you've read this stuff before, anyway.)

Yes, you're not the first to make such unverifiable claims, which are popular with her detractors, eg, liberals, socialists, other anti-individualist types.

It doesn't really matter to me, personally.

And yet, you continue to make the unevidenced claim.

I've long been fascinated with serial killers and mass murderers. When I was a teenager and much more unhinged than I am now, I even idolized a few (like the Columbine killers - so stereotypical of me). So if Rand had a thing for a murderer, that was her little fetish. It seems clear to me how she felt about him, anyway.

You're just fascinated by them.
I actually hired one.
(But his employment ended with his arrest.)

But I can't give a **** anymore about this little derailment. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

When you find some evidence, feel free to convince me she loved or admired him.

 

[metis]

You're also not as racist or sexist as him. (I'm close to him, too, but I'd much rather hang out with Emma Goldman.)

Ya, but to his credit, he did change that as he got older. His racist statements were when he was operating as a lawyer in South Africa.

 

[Revoltingest]

I promise to try to not derail this thread again.
No guarantees.....just that I'll try.

 

[suncowiam]

Two items in the News: Wall Street Journal column pushing for a guaranteed income for Americans; and Switzerland referendum for such an arrangement fails...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-guaranteed-income-for-every-american-1464969586
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/05/free-money-no-thanks-say-swiss-voters/

So what do you think? Should we or shouldn't we? Why or why not?

Let's see what happens to the Swiss first.

Keep in mind, if someone wanted to go to war with them, I think they'll be easily pushed around. It's easier to solely focus on social aspects but throw is security and defense and see how easy it remains.