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Guilt by Association

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Person A is friends with person B. Person B likes to abduct, rape, torture, and kill women. Person A knows this, though has no part in it, yet remains friends with B. Is it acceptable to question A's character and distance yourself from him based on his friendship?

More down to earth, if you know people who simply aren't "good" people (selfish, racist, what you find to be good traits is relative) and others, who know of these same traits are friends with them, is it fair to judge their character and distance oneself simply from the association?

Please answer both.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Person A is friends with person B. Person B likes to abduct, rape, torture, and kill women. Person A knows this, though has no part in it, yet remains friends with B. Is it acceptable to question A's character and distance yourself from him based on his friendship?

Yes.

More down to earth, if you know people who simply aren't "good" people (selfish, racist, what you find to be good traits is relative) and others, who know of these same traits are friends with them, is it fair to judge their character and distance oneself simply from the association?

Please answer both.

Yes.

If you are going to get involved or be friends with someone, it is always fair to judge their character, which involves decisions they make.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
Person A is friends with person B. Person B likes to abduct, rape, torture, and kill women. Person A knows this, though has no part in it, yet remains friends with B. Is it acceptable to question A's character and distance yourself from him based on his friendship?

More down to earth, if you know people who simply aren't "good" people (selfish, racist, what you find to be good traits is relative) and others, who know of these same traits are friends with them, is it fair to judge their character and distance oneself simply from the association?

Please answer both.

I am not quite sure about the questions. But I would suggest that a person who knows of the activities of others and does nothing deserves some level of condemnation.

Consider this:

[youtube]KqTdXOQmXrc[/youtube]
The Bad Samaritan Part 1 of 2 - YouTube
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
To consider certain things acceptable and unacceptable are good ways to judge character. If person A is okay with what person B is doing (at least enough to remain friends) then it speaks volumes about person A. Its not guilt by association necessarily as it does shed light on how individuals view certain subjects.

In this case the idea of abduction and rape are not appaling enough for person A to consider severing the friendship with person B. This speaks loads on person A that doesn't necessarily mean guilt by association.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Person A is friends with person B. Person B likes to abduct, rape, torture, and kill women. Person A knows this, though has no part in it, yet remains friends with B. Is it acceptable to question A's character and distance yourself from him based on his friendship?
Of course. First of all even before questioning A's morality for embracing B, you would be protecting yourself. As for A, I would consider them stupid in general and not worth associating with.
More down to earth, if you know people who simply aren't "good" people (selfish, racist, what you find to be good traits is relative) and others, who know of these same traits are friends with them, is it fair to judge their character and distance oneself simply from the association?
At the end of the day, we all need to take care of our comfort, space and interests. From my experience, it depends on the case. If the person I know really has a habit of collecting dysfunctional people and it projects negatively on the quality my relationship with them then I'd act according to my interests, and that may include disassociating myself from them. If its more negligible and only influence them then I may tolerate it. It all depends how far does it go.
Personally, although I am very loyal to my friends, most of whom are friends with me for many years, some actually from early childhood, there were times I also had to take an honest review at some of my friendships and associates and to take a conscious decision to break apart the relationship. It happened several times, and I felt that I needed to do this in order to preserve my personal space, sense of freedom, comfort, and even personal and social interests.

To me, guilt by association does not have to carry fallacies. We all have our personal, social and political interests and we owe it to ourselves to act in our best interests. We really owe no allegiance to those we feel invading our space, comfort, or safety. At the end of the day you are also judging the person for their character, if you truly find them to be men or women of quality who are important to you, then you may not disassociate yourself. However from my personal experience, if the case is really extreme then it's probably someone who at some point you thought was not fit in your circle of associates to begin with.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I think there are two different issues here:

1) The right of individuals to form and dissolve relationships with other beings as they see fit.

- and -

2) Third-party assumptions about the character of a being due to their relationships with another being or beings, especially issues of responsibility.

The thread title seems to be about the second, but the manner of the questions in the OP strikes me as the first. The first one almost isn't a valid question to me, because everyone has the ability to form and dissolve relationships as they see fit and, in my culture, it is exceptionally rare for this to be regulated by law in any way. The second one is more complicated, because there are cases where by law, you might be considered an associate to a crime by association.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Person A is friends with person B. Person B likes to abduct, rape, torture, and kill women. Person A knows this, though has no part in it, yet remains friends with B. Is it acceptable to question A's character and distance yourself from him based on his friendship?

The problem here is that A does in fact have a part in it. His/her knowledge makes them take a part in it, because they can and should intervene. Once A becomes aware by default he/she acquires a responsibility. They may or may not live up to it, and depending on whether or not they do, with very, very little possible exceptions, the almost certain outcome is that failure to meet this responsibility reflects terribly on that person. For clarity, the responsibility can be met while maintaining the friendship, for many possible reasons. Person A might have reasons to want to remain close and be helpful to person B, but they have no excuse to not try and do something about the horrific harm which is being carried out.

So, questioning is not only acceptable, it's a necessity. If one doesn't question the friendship and fails to attempt to look beyond the surface (to find out what person A has or is doing about it), they would be extremely irresponsible towards themselves and towards society. In short, it'd be crazy not to question them.

As for distancing one's self from them, generally, of course it's acceptable. Both for the mere maintenance of friendship with B and for the more specific reason i explained above. And it would not necessarily be guilt by association. Simply put, if the person concludes that A is a rapist, kidnapper, murderer and so forth too, then yes, it would be unfair. But distancing one's self from person A is not by necessity based on such conclusion.

Generally, we have many reasons and inclinations in regards to who we decide to be close with, who to associate with, and who to not. Depending on our goals, preferences and position in life. A simple example, if i have kids, i might be much more careful about what possibilities i allow in my circle, unlike now. By highlighting possibilities, i'm specifically indicating that it would not necessarily be based on absolute judgments on certain people. Rather, just what may simply come from allowing them in, and i wouldn't be wrong in doing so.

More down to earth, if you know people who simply aren't "good" people (selfish, racist, what you find to be good traits is relative) and others, who know of these same traits are friends with them, is it fair to judge their character and distance oneself simply from the association?

The logic goes similarly to the above, with a few more things to put in mind. The first example is drastic; it's clear cut. This is more difficult. By my standards, i'm not necessarily a good person in the first place. But, to avoid over complication, i'll get to the gist. I have one friend who i think is clearly a 'bad' person. As in, more bad than good. He has done things i find intolerable, and his thinking generally is extremely disturbing to me. I find a lot of what he might do and have done to be very unethical.

I've considered cutting my relationship with him many times, and have attempted to do so more than once but changed my mind when he tried to fix things using promises, because i wanted to give him a chance. To be clear, those things are mostly unrelated to me personally, but they are things i find unacceptable. I'm trying to be what i perceive as a positive influence on him. And throughout, my feelings remain a bit uncomfortable. Sometimes i decide it's a hopeless case, sometimes i think there's hope and see a minor change, and sometimes i want to beat him up. Similarly to the above, i also have a responsibility here, because some of his views and actions can and do result in harm to others. I try to live up to it.

If someone was to realize some of this person's negative aspects, and questioned me because of that, i wouldn't consider them to have done anything wrong. They must question me. If they decide to distance themselves from me, again, i wouldn't necessarily think they've did anything unfair to me.

It would depend on why. Have they concluded that by necessity, since i'm friends with him, i'm just like him? If so, then yes, they've misjudged, thought about the matter in an incorrect manner and have made an unfair judgement as a result.

However, if they decide to distance themselves from me simply as a way of distancing themselves from him, for example, then i see no problem with that. Allowing him to be close to me is my choice, and others are free to make their own, depending on their goals, preferences and position in life.
 
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Kerr

Well-Known Member
Person A is friends with person B. Person B likes to abduct, rape, torture, and kill women. Person A knows this, though has no part in it, yet remains friends with B. Is it acceptable to question A's character and distance yourself from him based on his friendship?

More down to earth, if you know people who simply aren't "good" people (selfish, racist, what you find to be good traits is relative) and others, who know of these same traits are friends with them, is it fair to judge their character and distance oneself simply from the association?

Please answer both.
In your first example, it is acceptable to question A's character. However, I am reluctant to say guilty by association is a good thing. Its not. The example just featured a rather extreme case. I dont think its fair to judge in such a way, in general.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
In your first example, it is acceptable to question A's character. However, I am reluctant to say guilty by association is a good thing. Its not. The example just featured a rather extreme case. I dont think its fair to judge in such a way, in general.

If you know two friends are bad people, and yet you choose to remain friends with them, how is that different from example one?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The Doors of Perception said:
Guilt by association
This isn't a matter of guilt by association. Guilt by association is assigning the same guilt to a second party, which isn't the case here. The case here is the character of someone who overlooks the heinous nature of someone else and even befriends them. Not the same thing. Now, one could claim that the "yourself" in the scenario has a responsibility to intervene in what could be seen as A's perpetuation of Bs actions---a matter of "sin of omission"---but this is another issue.

As for your question
". . .if you know people who simply aren't "good" people (selfish, racist, what you find to be good traits is relative) and others, who know of these same traits are friends with them, is it fair to judge their character and distance oneself simply from the association?"
Yes it is fair to judge them. It's for no small reason that the saying, "we are judged by the company we keep," is a truism. Whom we associate with is just as telling of our character as what we do and say.
 
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