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Has God ever . . . .

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Since Jesus Christ obviously believed and taught that the Genesis account is true, those professing to be Christians who reject that account are not following Christ's teachings.
How do you know this? It's certainly not obvious to me.

And since Christ came to provide a ransom for the sin that Adam committed, if there was no Adam, and no sin, there would be no need for the ransom sacrifice that God provided in sending Jesus to earth. (John 3:16, Matthew 20:28) The Bible states: Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22) If Adam did not exist, the Bible is giving a false witness. Thus, the ToE is a repudiation of the entire (true) Christian faith.
A couple of thoughts here:

- Adam just means "Man", and I (as well as others) think the Genesis story makes the most sense if we interpret the creation myth as an allegory or a parable where Adam is an archetype representing all humanity, and "Adam's sin" is some collective sin of humanity as a whole, or as representative of something all of us do. Jesus did make use of parables, didn't he?

- it seems like you're saying that if Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary, then this would be a fatal blow to Christianity. However, since AFAICT, it wouldn't have been necessary even with a literal Adam, I fail to see how things are different in this regard if Adam is non-literal.


But it is not the Bible giving the false witness. As Michael Behe stated: "Molecular evolution is not based on scientific authority. There is no publication in the scientific literature...that describes how molecular evolution of any real, complex, biochemical system either did occur or even might have occurred...The assertion of Darwinian molecular evolution is merely bluster."





Oh dear... you cite MICHAEL BEHE while speaking out against false witness? The irony is palpable. :)
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Since Jesus Christ obviously believed and taught that the Genesis account is true, those professing to be Christians who reject that account are not following Christ's teachings.
But what if He didn't believe it was historically true?

Again, Literalism is only one theory of interpretation.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But what if He didn't believe it was historically true?

Again, Literalism is only one theory of interpretation.

The Bible reveals that he did believe it was historically true, as did his early disciples.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
fantôme profane;2998620 said:
If we believed everything written in the Bible was literally true we wouldn't be talking about this in the first place.
We wouldn't? Why?


:sorry1:
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
fantôme profane;2998645 said:
The question is why must anyone accept that everything recorded in the Gospels is accurate when it comes to what Jesus really said?
No, my question is why wouldn't we discuss it if it were.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
fantôme profane;2998668 said:
Because hypothetically if we agreed that everything in the Bible was literally true there would be nothing to debate. We would be in agreement.
Oh - I misunderstood. I thought you were saying "If Literalism were the only interpretation," not "if we were all believing Literalists.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
That doesn't work either. The very order of the Creation is impossible from a scientific/ historical perspective, with plants being Created before the sun. However, from a mythic perspective, it's perfect!

Excerpted from Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance -
A case in point is the supposition that the numbering of days in Genesis is to be understood in an arithmetical sense. The use of numbers in ancient religious texts was usually numerological rather than numerical; that is, their symbolic value was more important than their secular value as counters. To deal with numbers in a religious context as an actual numbering of days, or eons, is an instance of the way in which a literal reading loses the symbolic richness of the text.

While the conversion of numerology to arithmetic was essential for the rise of modern science, historiography and mathematics, in which numbers had to be neutralized and emptied of any symbolic suggestion in order to be utilized, the result is that numerological symbols are reduced to signs. The principal surviving exception is the number thirteen, which still holds a strange power over Fridays, and over the listing of floors in hotels and high rises.

Biblical literalism, in its treatment of the days of creation, substitutes a modern arithmetical reading for the original symbolic one. Not only does the completion of creation in six days correlate with and support the religious calendar and Sabbath observance (if the Hebrews had had a five-day work week, the account would have read differently), but also the seventh day of rest employs to the full the symbolic meaning of the number seven as wholeness, plenitude, completion.

The religious meaning of the number seven is derived in part from the numerological combination of the three zones of the cosmos (heaven, earth, underworld) seen vertically, and the four directions, or zones, of the cosmos seen horizontally. Thus seven (adding three and four) and twelve (multiplying them) are recurrent biblical symbols of totality and perfection. The liturgically repeated phrase "And God saw that it was good," and the final capping phrase "And behold it was very good," are paralleled and underlined by being placed in a structure climaxed by a seventh day.

A parallelism of two sets of three days is also being employed, with the second set of days populating the first: light and darkness (day one) are populated by the greater and lesser lights (four); firmament and waters (two) by birds and fish (five); earth and vegetation (three) by land animals and humans (six). Two sets of three days, each with two types of created phenomena, equaling twelve, thus permitted the additional association with the corresponding numerological symbol of wholeness and fulfillment. The totality of nature is created by God, and is to be affirmed in a hymn of celebration and praise for its "very goodness."

While it is true that the biblical view of creation sanctifies time and nature as created by God and therefore good it does not follow that the creation accounts as such are to be understood chronologically or as natural history. And while it is true that history is seen as the context and vehicle of divine activity, it does not follow that the creation accounts are to be interpreted as history, or even prehistory. One of the symbolic functions of the creation accounts themselves is to give positive value to time and to provide the staging for history. They are no more historical than the set and scenery of a play are part of the narrative of the drama, or than the order in which an artist fills in the pigment and detail of a painting is part of the significance of the painting.
~ Conrad Hyers, Ph.D

A Literalist reading of Genesis is scientifically indefensible, and no amount of mental gymnastics can change that. Further, it's not even an honest debate between religion and science. As said elsewhere in the article, "The biblical understanding of creation is not being pitted against evolutionary theories, as is supposed; rather, evolutionary theories are being juxtaposed with literalist theories of biblical interpretation. Doing this is not even like comparing oranges and apples; it is more like trying to compare oranges and orangutans."

Now, whether the authors of Genesis were writing myth deliberately, or ignorant guesses at science and history is a worthier debate. I happen to side with the former proposition, but at least there's a question to argue!
No takers?
 

camanintx

Well-Known Member
Your claim that Bible's don't agree with each other is specious. Interesting is this quote from w09 11/1 p. 14: "Professor Julio Trebolle Barrera, a member of the team of experts charged with studying and publishing the ancient manuscripts known as the Dead Sea Scrolls, says: “The transmission of the text of the Hebrew Bible is of extraordinary exactitude, without parallel in Greek and Latin classical literature.” Respected Bible scholar F. F. Bruce says: “The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical authors, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning.” He continues: “If the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt.”
The Epic of Gilgamesh is more established than the Bible, but that doesn't mean Gilgamesh is two-thirds god.


I don't know on what you base your assertion that " we know for a fact that animals existed before seeded plants and fruits."
Maybe the fact that animals appear in the fossil record over 500 million years ago while seeds and fruit don't appear until about 350 million years ago.

I wonder what they ate?
Maybe plants that didn't produce seeds. :facepalm:
 

RedJamaX

Active Member
The Bible reveals that he did believe it was historically true, as did his early disciples.

Another case in which the Bible is used in evidence of the stories within the Bible to proove that the stories are true.

wait, what?
**************************************************************************************************
In the beginning, after the earth was created and the dinosaurs died, so just a little after the beginning really, Zebodom from the Crenthiufig star system, alone, genetically modified homo-erectus in the species known today as homo-sapien...
And to a Homo-Sapien woman he bore his son, Freghtuis...
And the words of the Creators son he spoke, "I am Freghtuis! I hereby declare that Crenthiufig is indeed my father and your creator and God."
**************************************************************************************************
A Self justifiying creation story that could easily be just as "True" as the Bible if millions of people around the world beleived in the teachings of Freghtuis.
 

otokage007

Well-Known Member
This is mostly for Christians/Muslims/etc (especially bible literalist) who reject evolution in favor of "Creationism." Has God ever, ever, ever told you that "creationism" is true and Evolution is not? I mean, really - with all the talking that you do to God through prayers, has he ever told you that creationism is true? Or did you get this just by reading the bible/Quran/whatever?

I would really like to know.

The only things that God supposedly tell, are written in the Bible and the other sacred books. And, those books were written thousand years ago, and, as u may already know, Darwin didn't exist by that time, nor did his theories. So no, God has never said "evolution isn't true", because when he ordered the bible, evolution didn't exist at all.

Now that I think of it, it's quite a good moment for God to write the Bible 2.0. He could even have a movie bout it!
 
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