Has there ever truely been a religious war?

[Trey of Diamonds]

Yes or No?

When you look at most so called "religious wars" there are underlying alternative reasons. Take the crusades for instance, many believe them to have been started to save the Holy Land from the Muslims. But the truth is that the Pope at the time was getting worried about the Frankish kings becoming more powerful than the church and fabricated an excuse to send them to war in a distant land, leaving him ultimately in power. The Muslims in question were merely migrating Turks looking for a new place to live since they'd been kicked out of their old homes. So was this a religious war? To the people fighting it it was but for the people who started it, those in charge and making the decisions, it had nothing at all to do with religion.

What about other so called religious wars? Do they have more mundane reasons behind them? Are those fighting the wars least likely to know what they are truely fighting for?

 

[work in progress]

I don't think you will find a strictly religious war that is not grounded in more mundane issues like land and resource disputes or oppression of a minority religion by the majority. The problem is that, during stressful times, religious divisions become one more issue of group identity that separates people. And things really get bad when an authoritarian leader makes an emotional appeal to followers based on nationalism, religion and racial purity.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Yes or No?

When you look at most so called "religious wars" there are underlying alternative reasons. Take the crusades for instance, many believe them to have been started to save the Holy Land from the Muslims. But the truth is that the Pope at the time was getting worried about the Frankish kings becoming more powerful than the church and fabricated an excuse to send them to war in a distant land, leaving him ultimately in power. The Muslims in question were merely migrating Turks looking for a new place to live since they'd been kicked out of their old homes. So was this a religious war? To the people fighting it it was but for the people who started it, those in charge and making the decisions, it had nothing at all to do with religion.

What about other so called religious wars? Do they have more mundane reasons behind them? Are those fighting the wars least likely to know what they are truely fighting for?

And what was the Albigenesian Crusade if not a religious war?

 

[ChristineES]

I don't think there are any totally, truly religious wars: Wars to me, usually are a show of power, trying to bend people into what you want them to me- and that can mean religiously, too. That is what I think.

 

[gnomon]

The Thirty Years War comes to mind. Though France did side with the Protestants the underlying origins of the war were due heavily to religious conflicts among various groups.

Some have made the case that the dissolution of the Balkan States and the various conflicts were not just ethnic conflicts but divided along religious groups as well. The major religious differences in identity among the Croatians, Serbians, Bosnians and Albanians, etc. do give some support to that notion. I don't know.

I think there have been many religious conflicts but the majority of them are smaller conflicts within certain national boundaries or ethnic boundaries. The larger wars are driven more by ethnic and political motives than religious in my opinion with some players, like France (Catholic), in the 30 Years War joining the Protestants for their own political purposes.

But I've never sat down and researched every major, notable conflict and there underlying causes. As well, it appears that even when a conflict is due to religious unrest other players get involved and the politics of the situation expands beyond religious differences. Such as the conflicts recently in the Sudan.

 

[MEMNOCK]

Even if it isn't the real reason behind a war, it is often used to unite the mindless masses behind a cause. It has always been that way.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

They're all religious, in that the citizenry who are actually the ones who do the fighting, are always convinced by the aristocracy that they're fighting for a higher cause.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

And what was the Albigenesian Crusade if not a religious war?

I'm not familiar with that Crusade, tell us the particulars.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

They're all religious, in that the citizenry who are actually the ones who do the fighting, are always convinced by the aristocracy that they're fighting for a higher cause.

You're right. The concept of a Just war is a religious doctrine

 

[sandandfoam]

And what was the Albigenesian Crusade if not a religious war?

Was it about religion or the authority/power of the Pope?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I'm not familiar with that Crusade, tell us the particulars.

It was a crusade initiated by the Catholic Church to eliminate all Gnostic/Cathar Christians in Languedoc, France

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Was it about religion or the authority/power of the Pope?

Even so. If it were about the authority and power of the Pope that would still make it a religious war

 

[sandandfoam]

It was a crusade initiated by the Catholic Church to eliminate all Gnostic/Cathar Christians in Languedoc, France

It's the most fascinating story, it has it all. 'The Perfect Heresy' is my favourite account.
http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Heresy-Stephen-OShea/dp/1861973500

 

[Copernicus]

Trey, can you give us a description of what would count as a "religious war" in your opinion? Is it a war in which the "casus belli" is a dispute over religious differences? In that case, the Crusades would count as religious wars, even though the French King may have had a secular ulterior motive for starting it. The people who went off to fight certainly saw their war as a crusade against Islam, not a war in favor of keeping the Parisian king in power.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Was it about religion or the authority/power of the Pope?

It was about religion maintaining authority/power. Secular kings were becoming too powerful so they were sent to war far away.

 

[sandandfoam]

Even so. If it were about the authority and power of the Pope that would still make it a religious war

Even when they put thousands of their own Catholic faith to the sword as in Beziers?

 

[Copernicus]

Even when they put thousands of their own Catholic faith to the sword as in Beziers?

What are you talking about? The Cathars were condemned as heretics.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Even when they put thousands of their own Catholic faith to the sword as in Beziers?

Remember what the Pope said

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Trey, can you give us a description of what would count as a "religious war" in your opinion?

Actually I'm still formulating an opinion which is why exercises like this are so useful. Should a war be judged by why the people who started it did so or by what the people fighting were fighting for? For example, was the reason for the American Civil War an extension of the battle between Jeffersonian and Hamilton politics, defense against an invader or a fight to end slavery? The answer will be different depending who you ask, is only one correct or could all be possibly correct?

Now, just to show I'm not entirely dodging the question, I would define a religious war as one where the decision makers went to war for religious reasons. But I'm not sure that my definition is correct.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes or No?

When you look at most so called "religious wars" there are underlying alternative reasons. Take the crusades for instance, many believe them to have been started to save the Holy Land from the Muslims. But the truth is that the Pope at the time was getting worried about the Frankish kings becoming more powerful than the church and fabricated an excuse to send them to war in a distant land, leaving him ultimately in power. The Muslims in question were merely migrating Turks looking for a new place to live since they'd been kicked out of their old homes. So was this a religious war? To the people fighting it it was but for the people who started it, those in charge and making the decisions, it had nothing at all to do with religion.

What about other so called religious wars? Do they have more mundane reasons behind them? Are those fighting the wars least likely to know what they are truely fighting for?

It almost seems like you're asking whether there have been any wars with only one causal factor. My impression is that there's virtually always more than one cause for any given war.

But does this mean that a war that's the result of religious causes mixed with non-religious ones isn't really a "religious war"? Probably not, IMO.