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HaShem & Allah: Identical, substantially the same, or substantially different?

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
CAUTION: This is a "One-on-One" thread. Keep out unless you have a ticket for admission.

@adrian009, @Terry Sampson


In my mind (i.e. Terry's), the issue up for discussion hereafter is whether Islam's Allah and Judaism's HaShem are identical, substantially the same, or substantially different. IMO, they are substantially different.

Notes:

  • The opinions of creatures who do not subscribe to an Abrahamic religion--as interesting as they may be to their proponents--are irrelevant here.
  • Adrian proposed, elsewhere, that
    • we compare "the concept of God between Judaism, Islam, and Christianity", and
    • he thinks it would be appropriate to start with "the Trinity".
  • Adrian then asked: "Belief in a triune god", and answered as follows --
    • Judaism: No;
    • Christianity: Yes;
    • Islam: No.
  • Terry responded: "Now that we've got that out of the way, let's move on to Judaism's HaShem and Islam's Allah." [In deference to those who object to even the written Tetragrammaton, I revised my previous graphic posted elsewhere and submit the following:
  • HaShem - Allah-2.jpg
  • dybmh asked: "Is your focus on how each of these are portrayed in scripture? Or is it a literal compare and contrast which may include theology as well as the texts?"
  • Terry answered: "Whatever I need to make my point, which is that Islam's Allah and Israel's HaShem are not only NOT identical, they are substantially more different than similar."
 
Last edited:

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Adrian: Corrections, amendments, comments? If not, "stand and deliver". State your position, keeping in mind that, if you agree with me, this thread is going to be very, very short. :D
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
It is all in human reflection.

I agree. I'd also add that if one is limited to the framing of a 'book character', I'd question to whether someone is really worshiping God at all.

As for "identical or substantially different", it'd be wiser to start from a perspective that doesn't assume a closed off, canonical "Abrahamic tradition". There is no way to even begin to make coherent thoughts about God if this is the limitation of understanding God.

As for the title of the thread, "The God & The Name", kinda interesting without transliteration, isn't it?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you @Terry Sampson for the opportunity to discuss the similarities and differences between the God of Islam known as Allah and the God of Judaism, also referred to as Yahweh, Elohim or Hashem amongst other names. I feel more comfortable referring to the God of Judaism as Yahweh but that is just a preference and recognise other names are completely valid too.

How can we best understand Allah and Yahweh? I would argue the best way is to study what Allah and Yahweh has revealed of Himself through His Chosen Messengers and Prophets. However study alone is not sufficient. We must devote ourselves to the worship of Allah or Yahweh. We must recognise their Chosen Messengers and faithfully follow the commandments and ordinances revealed. Do you agree? Study alone will help but is not sufficient.

So we initially come to learn about Yahweh through the Tanakh and Allah through the Quran. It is important at this early stage to acknowledge our respective faiths and where we stand in regards our beliefs about the Hebrew Bible and the Quran, and how we see the Jewish Prophets and Muhammad.

As a Christian I would assume you see the Tanakh as at least Divinely inspired, authentic and authoritative. It includes revelation from Yahweh through a series of His Prophets whom we could easily list. As a Christian I presume you believe in Jesus as the Promised Messiah in the Tanakh whose advent had been expected by many Jews when Christ was born. I would presume you recognise the New Testament as being somewhere along the spectrum between Divinely Inspired to the literal Word of God.

Christians have a spectrum of beliefs and attitudes towards Muhammad and the Quran. For example Pope Francis, the head of the Catholic Church has stated publically that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. However many Christian conservatives reject this. It seems clear from our conversations to date you would lean heavily in favour of Christians who reject Allah being the same God as the Christian God.

Baha'is on the other hand, see a clear lineage of God's Prophets/Messengers that includes the Jewish Prophets, Christ, Muhammad and more recently the twin Prophet/Founders of the Baha'i Faith, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Included in that recognition is the acknowledgement of the Divine inspiration of the Jewish Scriptures, New Testament, the Quran as well as the Writings of our Twin Prophets.

It must be acknowledged that adherents of Judaism would generally reject the claims of Divine Revelation in regards Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Muslims OTOH believe in many of the Jewish prophets, see Jesus as being both a Messenger and Prophet (Nabi and Rasool) like Moses in that they were bearers of a Divine Revelation whose Message to some extent over rides the need to follow previous Messengers. Muslims usually see Muhammad as the final Prophet for humanity for all time and would reject the claims of the Bab the be the Promised Qa'im and Baha'u'llah to be the Return of Christ.

In summary although we are comparing theological differences between Judaism and Islam when it comes to God, neither of us are adherents of either religions. There is a great deal of history between the Jews and Christians and history between the Muslims and Baha'is.

I write this to set the scene and to assist anyone silly enough to be following our conversation.

The obvious starting place is therefore the Tanakh which we would both regard as sacred scripture and Divinely Inspired. We need to agree what the Tanakh says about Hashem/Yahweh. The next step would be to see how that is consistent or inconsistent with the Quran. Does that seem reasonable? Any problems or comments with what I've written? I know I haven't answered the question, rather laid the ground work.

Once we are in agreement, perhaps you could provide a summary of some of the key aspects of Yahweh/Hashem as presented in the Tanakh.

Thank you again Terry.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Here are twelve principles about Yahweh in Judaism

1/ Yahweh is Unknowable

2/ Yahweh is Self-Subsisting

3/ Yahweh is Unchanging

4/ Yahweh is the Creator and Sustainer of all existence

5/ Yahweh is One

6/ Yahweh is Transcendant, Eternal, Omnipotent and Omniscient

7/ Yahweh is a God whom we can have a personal relationship

8/ Yahweh is a Giver and Generous

9/ Yahweh had made Himself known through Prophets or Messengers.

10/ Yahweh has established Covenants between Himself and His people (the Israelites)

11/ Yahweh is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

12/ Yahweh gave the Jewish people the Law of Moses at Mount Sinai


References:

https://torah.org/learning/god-in-a-nutshell-introduction/

Part 2: Is There Anything We Know About God? • Torah.org

https://torah.org/learning/god-in-a-nutshell-part3/

https://torah.org/learning/god-in-a-nutshell-part4/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/about-god-in-judaism/


Do you agree? Are there any key omissions and any that shouldn't be included?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The God of Islam is named Allah. What do we know about Allah?

1/ Allah is One

2/ Allah is the Creator of all

3/ Allah is incomparable

4/ Allah is the Sustainer of all

5/ Allah sent Messengers including Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad

6/ Allah has many attributes including Mercy, Compassionate, Bestower of peace, the Giver, the Almighty, All-Knowing, Wise and Loving

7/ Allah is Omniscient

8/ Allah wishes us to worship Him only but has endowed us with freewill

9/ Allah is Transcendent

10/ Allah is Unknowable


References

Concept of God in Islam

God in Islam - Wikipedia

Who Is Allah to Muslims?

Any key omissions and qualities that shouldn't be listed?
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Adrian,

  • First, a comment regarding my revised graphic. My first version of it contained the Hebrew letters, yod, he,vaw, he, i.e. the Tetragrammaton. I am a Gentile and have not settled on a consistent approach in naming God here in RF. Just yesterday, I read a Chabad.org info page which informed me that even writing the Tetragrammaton could be deemed taking the Name in vain. In deference to that opinion, I revised my graphic and have written the three letters in the "Jewish" circle: he, shin, and mem, which stand for "HaShem", i.e. "The Name". One consequence is that you won't see me using G-d or L--d.
  • Second, a comment about the placement of this thread. It is where it is and I put it where it is. Initially, I thought about making it a "Conversation" between you and me to give us more privacy. It's never too late to do that. It may even be advisable to do that, especially since I am a Christian Gentile and may say things that might give Jews heartburn and cause Muslims to have strokes or take offense.
  • You wrote: "..study alone is not sufficient. We must devote ourselves to the worship of Allah or Yahweh. We must recognise their Chosen Messengers and faithfully follow the commandments and ordinances revealed. Do you agree? Study alone will help but is not sufficient."
    • If, at any time, our conversation is not doing what either of us wants it to do, I say that the dissatisfied person should say so and get off the bus. I don't consider this conversation to be an ecumenical exercise, much less worship or even a righteous deed. [I don't worship on-line.] For me, it's an opportunity for me to think through the resources available to me and show or construct my reasoning in support of my initial claim. I am not defending HaShem. I am nobody, ... a pile of moving dust. My reasoning will, I hope, be intelligible. I'm sure that you will let me know if and when it isn't. I reserve the right to acknowledge my errors and recant them. Moreover, I am not afraid of "irreconcilable differences", if and when they show up.
  • You wrote: "As a Christian I would assume you see the Tanakh as at least Divinely inspired, authentic and authoritative. It includes revelation from Yahweh through a series of his Prophets whom we could easily list."
    • Caution: I acknowledge myself to be Christian, but am fully aware that some of my views would mark me as a heretic among many, if not most Christians. For me, HaShem's self-revelation that begins to have authority (in my mind) was in His exchange with Abraham. That does not mean that I don't believe HaShem revealed Himself before Abraham, only that that encounter, IMO, marks a substantially different phase of His self-revelation. Folks can dispute the existence of Abraham all they want, but as I see it: up until some point in history, there were no Jews, then something important happened, subsequent to which there was at least one household of Jews, followed by an increase in their numbers. Although I do not trace my genetic ancestry to that household, I do consider myself to be a beneficiary of that event and Israel's existence through Jesus of Nazareth.
  • You wrote: 'As a Christian I would presume you believe in Jesus as the Promised Messiah in the Tanakh whose advent had been expected by many Jews when Christ was born. I would presume you recognize the New Testament as being somewhere along the spectrum between Divinely inspired to the literal Word of God."
    • I'm not trying to be evasive here but I think it's relevant to point out that my claim, which initiated this thread, is that Islam's Allah and Judaism's HaShem have little in common. What I believe about Jesus and the Christian Scriptures is irrelevant. IMO, Judaism and Islam's rejection of important Christian doctrines and scriptures are things that Islam and Judaism have in common; however, a good many non-Abrahamic folks reject Christian doctrines and scriptures, too. So, I think it best to stick to my claim, ... for now, at least. The Doctrine of the Trinity is a "rabbit hole", as well as the various Christian christologies.
  • You wrote: "Pope Francis, the head of the Catholic Church has stated publicly that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. However many Christian conservatives reject this. It seems clear from our conversations to date you would lean heavily in favour of Christians who reject Allah being the same God as the Christian God."
    • In spite of my previous Roman Catholic associations and bonds, I am not a Catholic in good standing. For better or worse, I'm more a Christian heretic than "a lapsed Catholic". In other words, in the matter at hand, Pope Francis and I have an irreconcilable difference. Consequently, your suspicion that I "lean" differently than Pope Francis is correct.
Hmm, ... I see that you've posted again, ... twice, and here I am still trying to work my way through your opening post. [Part of my delay has been due to my mouse's failure to "right click" and a number of annoying changes that my computer has undergone following some unsolicited software updates. Disabled as my computer seems to be currently, it's still functioning, and so am I.]
That said, I'll leave the rest of your first post unaddressed for now and take your second and third posts in hand.
 
Last edited:

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Following the traditional Forum practice of modifying another members posts :eek:, I submit here the two lists of attributes of Judaism's HaShem and Islam's Allah which you expeditiously laid out in your last two posts.

Adrian's Lists
HaShem:
  1. Unknowable
  2. Self-Subsisting
  3. Unchanging
  4. Creator and Sustainer of all
  5. One
  6. Transcendent, Eternal, Omnipotent, and Omniscient
  7. With whom we can have a personal relationship
  8. Generous Giver
  9. Self-revealer through Prophets and Messengers
  10. Covenants with Israel
  11. God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
  12. Law-Giver at Sinai
===========================================
Allah:
  1. One
  2. Creator of all
  3. Incomparable
  4. Sustainer of all
  5. Sent Messengers including Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad
  6. Attributes: Mercy, Compassionate, Bestower of peace, the Giver, the Almighty, All-Knowing, Wise and Loving
  7. Omniscient
  8. Requires exclusive worship but has endowed us with freewill
  9. Transcendent
  10. Unknowable
================================
Before adding anything that is not already in either list, I want to tinker with each: consolidating some items, separating others, and rearranging the contents of both lists. The results of my tinkering will be in my next post.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
2nd Phase. Here are your two lists after some tinkering on my part. Look them over, ask questions, and tell me what you think.

HaShem:
  1. Unknowable
  2. One
  3. Transcendent
  4. Omnipotent
  5. Omniscient
  6. Creator of all
  7. Sustainer of all
  8. Generous Giver
  9. Self-Subsisting
  10. Unchanging
  11. Eternal
  12. With whom we can have a personal relationship
  13. Self-revealer through Prophets and Messengers
  14. Covenants with Israel
  15. God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
  16. Law-Giver at Sinai
==================
Allah:
  1. Unknowable
  2. One
  3. Transcendent
  4. Omnipotent
  5. Omniscient
  6. Creator of all
  7. Sustainer of all
  8. Generous Giver
  9. Incomparable
  10. Sent Messengers including Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad
  11. Attributes: Mercy, Compassionate, Bestower of peace, Wise and Loving
  12. Requires exclusive worship but has endowed us with freewill
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Adrian,

  • First, a comment regarding my revised graphic. My first version of it contained the Hebrew letters, yod, he,vaw, he, i.e. the Tetragrammaton. I am a Gentile and have not settled on a consistent approach in naming God here in RF. Just yesterday, I read a Chabad.org info page which informed me that even writing the Tetragrammaton could be deemed taking the Name in vain. In deference to that opinion, I revised my graphic and have written the three letters in the "Jewish" circle: he, shin, and mem, which stand for "HaShem", i.e. "The Name". One consequence is that you won't see me using G-d or L--d.

Im comfortable with the use of HaShem instead of my preferred Yahweh as its agreeable to us both. I have my reasons for using Yahweh but its off topic for the purpose of this thread.

Second, a comment about the placement of this thread. It is where it is and I put it where it is. Initially, I thought about making it a "Conversation" between you and me to give us more privacy. It's never too late to do that. It may even be advisable to do that, especially since I am a Christian Gentile and may say things that might give Jews heartburn and cause Muslims to have strokes or take offense.

Jews and Muslims are free to PM us or report us if they feel we are in breach of the RF Mission Statement. They could start a thread to address any concerns though would need our permission to directly quote us in any new OP. That being said I’ve been careful to provide information that’s consistent with what Jews and Muslims say about their own faiths.

I thought it appropriate to be clear about disclosing our faiths. Its like disclosing any potential conflicts of interest.

You wrote: "..study alone is not sufficient. We must devote ourselves to the worship of Allah or Yahweh. We must recognise their Chosen Messengers and faithfully follow the commandments and ordinances revealed. Do you agree? Study alone will help but is not sufficient."
  • If, at any time, our conversation is not doing what either of us wants it to do, I say that the dissatisfied person should say so and get off the bus. I don't consider this conversation to be an ecumenical exercise, much less worship or even a righteous deed. [I don't worship on-line.] For me, it's an opportunity for me to think through the resources available to me and show or construct my reasoning in support of my initial claim. I am not defending HaShem. I am nobody, ... a pile of moving dust. My reasoning will, I hope, be intelligible. I'm sure that you will let me know if and when it isn't. I reserve the right to acknowledge my errors and recant them. Moreover, I am not afraid of "irreconcilable differences", if and when they show up.

I’m really good about what we’re doing and the approach taken. I just wanted to acknowledge that we can’t properly understand the faith of another unless we are a practitioner of that faith.

You wrote: "As a Christian I would assume you see the Tanakh as at least Divinely inspired, authentic and authoritative. It includes revelation from Yahweh through a series of his Prophets whom we could easily list."
  • Caution: I acknowledge myself to be Christian, but am fully aware that some of my views would mark me as a heretic among many, if not most Christians. For me, HaShem's self-revelation that begins to have authority (in my mind) was in His exchange with Abraham. That does not mean that I don't believe HaShem revealed Himself before Abraham, only that that encounter, IMO, marks a substantially different phase of His self-revelation. Folks can dispute the existence of Abraham all they want, but as I see it: up until some point in history, there were no Jews, then something important happened, subsequent to which there was at least one household of Jews, followed by an increase in their numbers. Although I do not trace my genetic ancestry to that household, I do consider myself to be a beneficiary of that event and Israel's existence through Jesus of Nazareth.

I’m hardly likely to consider you a heretic and have no issues if you have a theological perspective that differs from your peers.

For the record I believe Adam was the first known Israelite Prophet but appreciate that’s not necessarily a view widely held amongst Jews. More importantly I believe a loving God would not leave us bereft of His Guidance. So I believe God has guided humans through other Great Educators who would fall outside the Abrahamic paradigm.

I think its best we are comparing Jewish and Islamic theology. Some key Christian doctrines fundamentally contradict both religions.

You wrote: "Pope Francis, the head of the Catholic Church has stated publicly that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. However many Christian conservatives reject this. It seems clear from our conversations to date you would lean heavily in favour of Christians who reject Allah being the same God as the Christian God."
  • In spite of my previous Roman Catholic associations and bonds, I am not a Catholic in good standing. For better or worse, I'm more a Christian heretic than "a lapsed Catholic". In other words, in the matter at hand, Pope Francis and I have an irreconcilable difference. Consequently, your suspicion that I "lean" differently than Pope Francis is correct.

For the record I grew up Christian (Presbyterian) and later was part of a Baptist Church before I became a Baha’i nearly 30 years ago. I’m from a lineage of staunch Protestants from Northern Ireland.

Hmm, ... I see that you've posted again, ... twice, and here I am still trying to work my way through your opening post. [Part of my delay has been due to my mouse's failure to "right click" and a number of annoying changes that my computer has undergone following some unsolicited software updates. Disabled as my computer seems to be currently, it's still functioning, and so am I.]
That said, I'll leave the rest of your first post unaddressed for now and take your second and third posts in hand.

All good Terry. Take your time. I’ve been out of town doing locum work as a GP. Its my lunch break now.

2nd Phase. Here are your two lists after some tinkering on my part. Look them over, ask questions, and tell me what you think.

HaShem:
  1. Unknowable
  2. One
  3. Transcendent
  4. Omnipotent
  5. Omniscient
  6. Creator of all
  7. Sustainer of all
  8. Generous Giver
  9. Self-Subsisting
  10. Unchanging
  11. Eternal
  12. With whom we can have a personal relationship
  13. Self-revealer through Prophets and Messengers
  14. Covenants with Israel
  15. God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
  16. Law-Giver at Sinai
==================
Allah:
  1. Unknowable
  2. One
  3. Transcendent
  4. Omnipotent
  5. Omniscient
  6. Creator of all
  7. Sustainer of all
  8. Generous Giver
  9. Incomparable
  10. Sent Messengers including Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad
  11. Attributes: Mercy, Compassionate, Bestower of peace, Wise and Loving
  12. Requires exclusive worship but has endowed us with freewill

Your amended list is fine. How do the differences and similarities seem to you now? Unless I’m missing something there is not one attribute of Hashem or Allah that doesn’t apply (at least in part) to the other religion. Where do you see the differences?
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Im comfortable with the use of HaShem
Do what you're comfortable with; I am.

I’ve been careful to provide information that’s consistent with what Jews and Muslims say about their own faiths.
Which is why you won't see me saying much about what Muslims say about Islam. As for Judaism's HaShem, my belief, familiarity with the Tanakh, and my Gentile Christian background make me bolder, but I expect to be called on any egregious mis-characterization or misstatement if and when I make one.

I thought it appropriate to be clear about disclosing our faiths. Its like disclosing any potential conflicts of interest.
Ahh, you're right. It's a fact that I have biases: I would not have made my claim if I didn't. I've avoided an autobiographical account of my 71-year religious evolution because I've been known to make short stories long.

I just wanted to acknowledge that we can’t properly understand the faith of another unless we are a practitioner of that faith.
Right. Only a duck can rightfully speak for a duck; a chicken's description of a duck is not "the truth, the whole truth,and nothing but the truth." I'd rather hear a devout Orthodox Jew and a devout Sunni or Shia Muslim discuss the matter, but I don't know of any previous such discussions. Do you?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Right. Only a duck can rightfully speak for a duck; a chicken's description of a duck is not "the truth, the whole truth,and nothing but the truth." I'd rather hear a devout Orthodox Jew and a devout Sunni or Shia Muslim discuss the matter, but I don't know of any previous such discussions. Do you?

I don't believe we need to be a practitioner of a faith to have some grasp of it, but its very easy to mischaracterise or distort a faith we have limited experience with. It happens to Hindus a lot and I've experienced it as a Baha'i.

Personally, I'm comfortable across the spectrum of Abrahamic belief as I was raised a Christian and reconnected with my Christian roots in my 20s but then became a Baha'i. As the Baha'i Faith is founded on Islam as Christianity is on Judaism, Islam becomes a much easier religion. I've had discussions with devout Jews and Muslims on this site. I'm comfortable with Jews, Muslims and Christians and what they believe.

I doubt if Jews and Muslims would have too much trouble with what we've agreed are their core beliefs about HaShem and Allah but we could always ask them. :)
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Your amended list is fine.
Not really, IMO. Technically, I'm inclined to think that the two lists merit the modifications necessary to make them even more similar than they are.
Granted, Items 1 through 8 are the same in both lists. The remaining items are not consistent. Although it may seem like I'm nit-picking, I like consistency: it's less "confusing" or "distracting", IMO.

How do the differences and similarities seem to you now?
Personally, I'm prepared to concede that Allah's attribute of "incomparability" also applies to HaShem, and from your subsequent statement, I'll assume that you believe that HaShem's attributes of "eternality", "unchangeability", and "self-subsistence" also apply to Allah, in which case I see a comparative list like this one applicable to both.
  1. Unknowable
  2. One
  3. Transcendant
  4. Omnipotent
  5. Omniscient
  6. Creator of all
  7. Sustainer of all
  8. Generous Giver
  9. Eternal
  10. Unchanging
  11. Self-subsisting
  12. Incomparable
Assuming that that list escapes a beating by either Jews or Muslims or both, it certainly looks like both have a lot in common, doesn't it?

The interesting thing to me about that is that the attributes and features in the list are ideal aspects of, not just "A god", but of "a supreme/superior god." In other words, when it comes to "concepts of god", a god with all those attributes/features is preferable to one lacking one or more of them. So, .. that Allah and HaShem are said to have those things in their resumé comes as no surprise to me. But the fact, if indeed it is a fact, that both Allah and HaShem have those things in common is grounds for saying that Allah and HaShem are similar, but it's insufficient grounds, IMO, for saying that Allah and HaShem are the SAME God. Thus far, I concede that Judaism and Islam share a "God-idea" or concept of God, but not the same God..
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Not really, IMO. Technically, I'm inclined to think that the two lists merit the modifications necessary to make them even more similar than they are.
Granted, Items 1 through 8 are the same in both lists. The remaining items are not consistent. Although it may seem like I'm nit-picking, I like consistency: it's less "confusing" or "distracting", IMO.

I would like to take the next step and ask the Jews and Muslims independently about the list that applies to their religion and to suggest amendments. In doing so I hope to create a more authentic list that we are both satisfied represents HaShem and Allah. I’m happy to create a couple of threads through the Q & A forum, one for the Jews and the other Muslims. I’d ask them about the list that applies to them only.

As you probably know all Muslims believe they worship the same God as the Jews. Like Christians, there is a spectrum of beliefs amongst the Jews about whether or not Allah is the same as HaShem.

Personally, I'm prepared to concede that Allah's attribute of "incomparability" also applies to HaShem, and from your subsequent statement, I'll assume that you believe that HaShem's attributes of "eternality", "unchangeability", and "self-subsistence" also apply to Allah, in which case I see a comparative list like this one applicable to both.
  1. Unknowable
  2. One
  3. Transcendant
  4. Omnipotent
  5. Omniscient
  6. Creator of all
  7. Sustainer of all
  8. Generous Giver
  9. Eternal
  10. Unchanging
  11. Self-subsisting
  12. Incomparable
Assuming that that list escapes a beating by either Jews or Muslims or both, it certainly looks like both have a lot in common, doesn't it?

The interesting thing to me about that is that the attributes and features in the list are ideal aspects of, not just "A god", but of "a supreme/superior god." In other words, when it comes to "concepts of god", a god with all those attributes/features is preferable to one lacking one or more of them. So, .. that Allah and HaShem are said to have those things in their resumé comes as no surprise to me. But the fact, if indeed it is a fact, that both Allah and HaShem have those things in common is grounds for saying that Allah and HaShem are similar, but it's insufficient grounds, IMO, for saying that Allah and HaShem are the SAME God. Thus far, I concede that Judaism and Islam share a "God-idea" or concept of God, but not the same God..

It seems that you have changed your perspective somewhat which I view positively.

Let’s discuss this further once we’ve received feedback from the Jews and Christians. Perhaps it brings greater clarity for us both. I think the best we can do is independently establish the facts. Once the facts are established its easier to make sound conclusions, even if that conclusion is we can’t know for certain.

Edit: You’re may like to ask the Jews and/or Muslims on our behalf. If not I’m happy to ask either group.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Adrian,

I would like to take the next step

Be my guest. :) I readily see the value of "a reality check", although I think it may be too soon, because the list of 12 items doesn't include the 8 remaining items below, and if you include them I think you're going to run into a problem or two. Here are the 8 items:

  • HaShem
    • With whom we can have a personal relationship
    • Self-revealer through Prophets and Messengers
    • Covenants with Israel
    • God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
    • Law-Giver at Sinai
  • Allah
    • Sent Messengers including Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad
    • Attributes: Mercy, Compassionate, Bestower of peace, Wise and Loving
    • Requires exclusive worship but has endowed us with freewill
Examples of the problems that I imagine:
  • Asking Jews if HaShem has revealed Himself through Messengers;
    • "Messengers" may need translation. In English, I think the term would be angels; in Greek it would be hoi angelloi; and in Hebrew, I think it would be הַמַּלְאָכִ֖י
      ham-mal-’ā-ḵîm). Of course, if by "messengers" the Qur'an means "prophets" and not angels, then I think someone may have to explain the different between "a prophet who is a prophet" and "a prophet who is not a prophet". But that's just my uneducated opinion.
  • Asking Muslims if they or any one among all Muslims who have existed has ever entered into a covenant with Allah.
There are other questions I'd be interested in seeing an answer to. These are just a few that come to me:
  • Has anyone in Islam or Judaism ever heard Allah's/HaShem's Bat Ḳol (
    V02p588002.jpg
    ) and what kind of sound was it?
  • When HaShem/Allah led Israel out of Egypt and through the desert for 40 years before entering Canaan, did He travel in front of them or behind them?
  • Is HaShem/Allah a Father and does He have children? Is He ever a King? a Shepherd? a Savior, Deliverer, and Redeemer; and if so, from what?,
  • Has HaShem/Allah ever appeared in a temple or mosque, or sat on a throne?
  • What can happen to a human in the presence of HaShem/Allah?
  • Is the concept of "the Faces of God" an intelligible one in Islam?
  • What's the likelihood of a newly born infant speaking clear sentences in a cradle or of a clay bird flying away?
  • When HaShem/Allah created the world, did He create it out of nothing?
  • What is the Holy Spirit and how does It inspire a person?
There are undoubtedly better questions to ask, but these are the ones that come to mind right now. I'm working on other questions.

Regarding your invitation to initiate threads seeking opinions, ... I'm going to decline. I'd rather deal with the Hindus and, IMO, you've had more experience (in RF) navigating whitewater rapids. If and when you do so, you'll stick to asking Jews and Muslims, right? The Christians and the Heathen are an opinion seeker's Scylla and Charybdis.
 
Last edited:

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Be my guest. :) I readily see the value of "a reality check", although I think it may be too soon, because the list of 12 items doesn't include the 8 remaining items below, and if you include them I think you're going to run into a problem or two.

I’m quite flexible about the timing and am in no hurry. Its good for us to discuss some areas that are not so straightforward.

I was also thinking about how we think about the question too. Let’s say I meet this guy Joe from a church and he tells me about the Bible but his knowledge isn’t so good, his attention to detail weak and he’s got his facts muddled. So he rattles off a few well known biblical stories but they are considerably different from the ones written down in the Bible. Does that mean Joe believes in a different God than the one in the Bible? I personally don’t think it does, rather he has his own idiosyncratic take on it.

How about someone whose behaviour is morally questionable. King Solomon in the Tanakh has sexual relationships with hundreds of women. Does that mean he never believed in HaShem? I don’t think it does. There are no doubt a few people whom HaShem chose for a purpose despite their human flaws.

Then there was this guy Simon bar Kokhba who the Jews regarded as their Messiah but he led them to defeat against the Romans in the second century AD.

Simon bar Kokhba - Wikipedia

Did Simon believe in a different HaShem? I suspect he believed in the same HaShem as his fellow Jews but his ego got the better of him. He thought he was someone special but he wasn’t at all.

You probably see where I’m going with this. Perhaps the issue with Muhammad isn’t whether or not He believed in the same HaShem as the Jews. Perhaps He does but the concern maybe:
1/ His portrayal of HaShem was inaccurate and distorted., even disturbing or heretical. But could He have believed in the same HaShem anyhow?

2/ His morals appear questionable given his multiple wives, alleged marriage to a child and allegedly violent conduct during wartime and beyond. Does that mean He believed in a different God?

3/ Perhaps He was wasn’t a Prophet at all and exaggerated or misunderstood His Station? Would that means He believed in a different God?

I ask this because if these are the real issues at stake, there are better questions to be asking than whether or not Muhammad believed in the same God as HaShem. I would assume He does believe in HaShem but ask instead:
1/ Did Muhammad represent HaShem accurately and fairly?
2/ Was Muhammad a man of sound morals that we would expect from His Messenger of HaShem status and Founder of a religion followed by a quarter of the world’s population?
3/ Was Muhammad really a Prophet of HaShem?

I personally believe Muhammad represents HaShem fairly and accurately, he was a man of high moral standards and He was a Prophet of God. However are these the more relevant questions?

More to follow.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Here are the 8 items:
  • HaShem
    • With whom we can have a personal relationship
    • Self-revealer through Prophets and Messengers
    • Covenants with Israel
    • God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
    • Law-Giver at Sinai
  • Allah
    • Sent Messengers including Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad
    • Attributes: Mercy, Compassionate, Bestower of peace, Wise and Loving
    • Requires exclusive worship but has endowed us with freewill

I'd be interested to know the problems with these.

Examples of the problems that I imagine:
  • Asking Jews if HaShem has revealed Himself through Messengers;
    • "Messengers" may need translation. In English, I think the term would be angels; in Greek it would be hoi angelloi; and in Hebrew, I think it would be הַמַּלְאָכִ֖י
      ham-mal-’ā-ḵîm). Of course, if by "messengers" the Qur'an means "prophets" and not angels, then I think someone may have to explain the different between "a prophet who is a prophet" and "a prophet who is not a prophet". But that's just my uneducated opinion

There is no question about the relevance of the word Prophet in Judaism. I agree the word Messengers may not be used in Judaism other than for angels and almost certainly not like the Muslims use Messenger whose station appears higher than a Prophet.

Asking Muslims if they or any one among all Muslims who have existed has ever entered into a covenant with Allah.

The Quran mentions 22 Prophets who are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.

Prophets and messengers in Islam - Wikipedia

All major characters through whom HaShem establishes Covenants in the Hebrew Bible are mentioned in the Quran.

Prophets and messengers in Islam - Wikipedia

They include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Aaron and David.

We need to remember Muhammad's audience were pagans who worshipped many gods whom He taught to be like the Jews and Christians and worhsip just One God. They were uneducated and had little or no knowledge of the Hebrew Bible to begin with.

Muhammad mentions the Torah or Tawrat 136 times in the Quran.

Torah in Islam - Wikipedia

He also teaches its not enough to believe in Him but all the Prophets who have gone before:

We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).
Quran 3:84
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Muslims view of Hebrew scripture ranges from seeing it as corrupted and superceded by the Quran to largely authentic.

The original covenant made between God and mankind marked the beginning of creation according to Islamic theology. It is believed that before the creation of the heavens and the earth, God assembled all of creation (that would ever exist) in a timeless, placeless region and informed them of the truth of his existence. This moment is referred to in the verse 7:172 of the Quran as follows:


When thy Lord drew forth their descendants from the children of Adam, He made them testify concerning themselves [saying]: 'Am I not your Lord?' They replied, 'Yes, we do so testify'.


Covenant (religion) - Wikipedia


There are other questions I'd be interested in seeing an answer to. These are just a few that come to me:

Has anyone in Islam or Judaism ever heard Allah's/HaShem's Bat Ḳol (
V02p588002.jpg
) and what kind of sound was it?

When HaShem/Allah led Israel out of Egypt and through the desert for 40 years before entering Canaan, did He travel in front of them or behind them?

Is HaShem/Allah a Father and does He have children? Is He ever a King? a Shepherd? a Savior, Deliverer, and Redeemer; and if so, from what?,

Has HaShem/Allah ever appeared in a temple or mosque, or sat on a throne?

What can happen to a human in the presence of HaShem/Allah?

Is the concept of "the Faces of God" an intelligible one in Islam?

What's the likelihood of a newly born infant speaking clear sentences in a cradle or of a clay bird flying away?

When HaShem/Allah created the world, did He create it out of nothing?

What is the Holy Spirit and how does It inspire a person? There are undoubtedly better questions to ask, but these are the ones that come to mind right now. I'm working on other questions.

They all seem like interesting questions to understand worldviews very different from our own.

Regarding your invitation to initiate threads seeking opinions, ... I'm going to decline. I'd rather deal with the Hindus and, IMO, you've had more experience (in RF) navigating whitewater rapids. If and when you do so, you'll stick to asking Jews and Muslims, right? The Christians and the Heathen are an opinion seeker's Scylla and Charybdis.

I'd probably put in the Religious Q & A section that allows for discussion only, no debate but does enable those with expertise in the area to make constructive comments.

About the Religions Q&A Subforum
 
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