Hate speech in the Quran and Bible. Should it be tolerated/accepted?

[KWED]

You speaking about how people understand the message in the different religious books because if you take 10 people, you will get 10 different answers to how they interpret the text they have read.
But because how a few people have misused the teaching and made it "extreme version" of the religious teaching it seems like people think everyone from that religion is evil, or that the religion in it self is evil.

If we remove the passage that instructs a husband to beat a wife if he fears ill-conduct from her, then no one can "misinterpret" that as an instruction to beat a wife if he fears ill-conduct from her.
Simples!

 

[Spirit of Light]

If we remove the passage that instructs a husband to beat a wife if he fears ill-conduct from her, then no one can "misinterpret" that as an instruction to beat a wife if he fears ill-conduct from her.
Simples!

You keep twisting and turning it to fit your agenda I see. If that is your way, feel free to continue

 

[KWED]

It is true that some parts of the Quran do contain some very graphic explanations, I do not hide that.
And even many Muslims ask me how I can see so much love and compassion in Islam and in Quran, For me, the teaching and Sufism changed my way of thinking, and it changed my life from dreadful and worrying to happiness and compassion (unconditional love).
But if I see the news, and Taliban have killed or destroyed somewhere, to me that is not Islam I know. Because the only enemy I found is my own Ego, that is where I have jihad.
Of course, other Muslims may understand the teaching totally different than me, so they have to answer for their own understanding, that is not something I can do for them.

Verse 60:4 clearly advises Muslims to show "hate and enmity" towards non-Muslims, until they submit to Islam.
I know that you disagree with that sentiment, but it's what Allah wants from you.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Verse 60:4 clearly advises Muslims to show "hate and enmity" towards non-Muslims, until they submit to Islam.
I know that you disagree with that sentiment, but it's what Allah wants from you.

The quran also says in Sura 5:32

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.


The thing is that you can find what you looking for both to be with Allah, but also to discredit if you want to. Quran contain both sides, so those who are against religion will use always what can be seen as negativity. (I getting used to some people doing this in discussion)

 

[KWED]

You keep twisting and turning it to fit your agenda I see. If that is your way, feel free to continue

"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, first admonish them, then refuse to share their beds, lastly beat them." (4:34)

Now, please explain how I am "twisting and turning it to fit your agenda"?
Those are the clear and unequivocal words of Allah.
The word for "beat" in that verse is the same form used in 8:12 to describe striking an enemy in battle.
There are hadith that describe the beating as "not severe" and to "avoid the face".
Ibn Kathir explains " if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating."

By what possible interpretation are you claiming that 4:34 does not give a husband the permission to beat a wife under carton conditions?

 

[Spirit of Light]

"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, first admonish them, then refuse to share their beds, lastly beat them." (4:34)

Now, please explain how I am "twisting and turning it to fit your agenda"?
Those are the clear and unequivocal words of Allah.
The word for "beat" in that verse is the same form used in 8:12 to describe striking an enemy in battle.
There are hadith that describe the beating as "not severe" and to "avoid the face".
Ibn Kathir explains " if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating."

By what possible interpretation are you claiming that 4:34 does not give a husband the permission to beat a wife under carton conditions?

AGAIN: I do not speak for other than my own being, if other people think it is ok to beat his wife, that is on them.
If I had a wife I would never lay hand on her, same is for any other person in my life or who comes into my life, I do not lay hand on them.

 

[KWED]

The quran also says in Sura 5:32

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

You forgot to include 5:33, which goes into more detail about who can be killed and how.
It essentially states that a person guilty of "mischief" (fasad) should be tortured to death. (Ibm Kathir describes "fasad" as including "disbelief and acts of disobedience")
Yet you keep insisting that there is no violence in Islam and it is only about personal, spiritual growth!

The thing is that you can find what you looking for both to be with Allah, but also to discredit if you want to. Quran contain both sides, so those who are against religion will use always what can be seen as negativity. (I getting used to some people doing this in discussion)

So you admit that he Quran does contain passages that deserve criticism.
Also, the argument that we should ignore the bad bits because there are some good bits would allow all sorts of terrible behaviour in society.

 

[KWED]

AGAIN: I do not speak for other than my own being, if other people think it is ok to beat his wife, that is on them.
If I had a wife I would never lay hand on her, same is for any other person in my life or who comes into my life, I do not lay hand on them.

It is completely irrelevant. whether you would personally beat your wife or not.
The point is that in the Quran, Allah recommends Muslim men to beat a wife for ill-conduct under certain conditions.
We have established that you disagree with Allah on many things. However, that is not relevant here as most Muslims do not disagree with him on anything. They take his word as perfect and final. That is the problem.

 

[KWED]

What moved Christians to support the civil war in order to free slaves?

Just as many Christians fought to retain slavery.

What moved Christians to make the underground railroad to free slaves?

What moved Christians to hunt escaped slaves with dogs?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Historians believe ideas set forth during the religious movement known as the Second Great Awakening inspired abolitionists to rise up against slavery. This Protestant revival encouraged the concept of adopting renewed morals, which centered around the idea that all men are created equal in the eyes of God
Abolitionist Movement

I merely tried to point out that other Protestants, likewise Christians, argued for the other side. Therefore, I do not believe that it was Christian faith that is responsible, but other sensibilities of those involved. If the Christian religion could be used to support both sides, then some other human faculty than religion must be the deciding factor.

 

[Link]

You are welcome to try to put out God's light with your mouth, God will only perfect it more though you maybe averse.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Job is a rare exception as far as God's apparent caprice is concerned, but, that ends with an account of God's overwhelming generosity. Suffering strengthens us, and woe to those who never go through hardship. Again, Job is a rare example, that does not even really qualify as gratuitous cruelty on God's part - but rather a profound lesson to all mankind - God's ways are beyond man's fathoming, but always righteous and for our best.

Excuse me, but didn't God permit the killing of all of Job's children? I believe there were 10 of them, yes?

Fine, Job had more children later -- but that does not make up for the cruelty of killing the first 10. What father says, "oh well, 10 kids gone, but i've got more so who cares? Forget about them."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I merely tried to point out that other Protestants, likewise Christians, argued for the other side. Therefore, I do not believe that it was Christian faith that is responsible, but other sensibilities of those involved. If the Christian religion could be used to support both sides, then some other human faculty than religion must be the deciding factor.

I'm not saying Christians didn't use the bible to justify slavery. I'm merely pointing out that the abolitionist movement was a religious movement, meaning Christian. Give credit where credit is due.

 

[Spiderman]

Maybe, the problem is not that some Biblical text is hateful. Maybe the problem is the way in which some readers misinterpret Biblical text, or maybe some readers of our Holy Scriptures take some Bible verses out of context. Have you considered that possibility?

Read my post #43

Amputations of limbs, crucifixion, pouring boiling water on heads, and burning people for all eternity is pure psychopathic cruelty no matter how you interpret.

Would you mind giving me an interpretation of those verses that is not painting God up to be a cruel, sadistic , hateful bigot?

 

[Link]

Read my post #43

Amputations of limbs, crucifixion, pouring boiling water on heads, and burning people for all eternity is pure psychopathic cruelty no matter how you interpret.

Would you mind giving me an interpretation of those verses that is not painting God up to be a cruel, sadistic , hateful bigot?

If you disobey God and follow arrogance and path of Iblis in rejecting his representatives and means to him - you deserve the best and compassionate being to be cruel to you and put you in hell forever. If you couldn't see the paths of God for who they are and falsely thought that it's acceptable to turn away from them and it is not something to take lightly that hell is not incumbent upon these people, you really are not thinking logically out of envy towards God's chosen, same problem Iblis had when he couldn't accept Adam.

This is because his representatives guide to the light and turning away from his doors leads to the darkness and darkness is to be hated and not tolerated. In this world, we do our best, to call people back to God but everyone is responsible for their own soul.

If almost of humanity disbelieves when the final Messenger comes (the Mahdi), then not only will they go to hell, but all their cities will be destroyed, while believers will be saved from them.

 

[firedragon]

If we remove the passage that instructs a husband to beat a wife if he fears ill-conduct from her, then no one can "misinterpret" that as an instruction to beat a wife if he fears ill-conduct from her.
Simples!

If you really want to practice male dominance in a family society, you will invent something on your own or misinterpret something somewhere. Trying to make it that simple is not simple, its too simplistic.

 

[BrightShadow]

Christianity , like Islam, are very bigoted Religions that display/portray the epitome of hatred for infidels/heretics/pagans/unbelievers etc. (At least , total hatred for them if they die in that state without converting). You don't torture people forever and ever, unless you severely hate them.

It's why I left Christianity. I saw the bigotry and hate constantly. Just go to a Christian website and tell them you pray to the "Queens of Heaven", and see what some of the responses are, about the Kami I cherish being Demons.

Look at all the Biblical verses where God justifies complete genocide against people based on ethnicity or different Religious beliefs.

It's just wrong and goes against my conscience!

Threatening to torture people for ever, most of the world even, is worse than any form of hate speech, and it is very intrinsic to the nature and essence of Christianity.

To what extent should good people who don't like hatred and bigotry, take a stand against the hate-speech and bigotry in the Bible and Quran?

A lot of people are unaware of it, until it is brought to their attention. Some of the gruesome tortures amputations of limbs, crucifixion, and mutilations in the Quran and burning of infidels are so bad, it fills me with darkness to read them.

If you want the quotes and verses, I can provide them, or you can Google it.

I consider Muhammad and his daughter Fatima , peace be upon them, to be my close friends, but I can't object more to some of what is attributed to the Prophet, and his violent aggressive lifestyle, where he personally decapitated people and destroyed everything sacred to Polytheists, repeatedly condemning them to eternal torture in Quranic verses, destroying their shrines that are sacred to them, robbing people of basic liberties, and beyond.

Saudi Arabia, the Capitol of Islam, is run by an extremely bigoted regime where you won't find a single synagogue, Church, or Polytheist temple. It's forbidden and outlawed.

Jewish (as well as Christian and other non-Muslim) religious services are prohibited from being held in Saudi Arabia. That is total tyranny and bigotry!

I believe the Prophet was an orphan with a tough life who had nobody, and did indeed love God, and I love him, I just disagree with some of his behaviors.

I have met many orphans growing up and as an adult in jails, institutions, and ghettos, and they can be very violent angry people compared to those who had parents who nurtured, cared for, and gave them a healthy environment , with good role models.

But should we really be tolerant of pure hatred, bigotry, and hate-speech in the Bible and Quranic text??

The only thing necessary for hatred and bigotry to triumph in our world is for good people to remain silent, passive , and do nothing. Is that right or wrong?

In the poll, please choose the answer that you lean most towards.

There are many good teachings in Bible and Quran. Why not consider those?
A non believer of any particular doctrine should consider the context of any verse in that doctrine before posting and arguing about it. They should not cherry pick and take verses out of context. Sometimes context may not be clear even if you read multiple lines before or after a particular verse because it is also important to understand when that particular verse was applicable.
I don't think these doctrines are just books of rules. I think they are also historical documents. Some verses are simply descriptions of incidents and commandments during that particular incident only. Those verse may not apply to all future situations.
Also any descriptions regarding Heaven or Hell are also simply allegorical/ metaphorical. So, if any torture is described then it is described in a way what a person from thousand/s of years ago can relate to. Who were the first readers of these books? If they were told they will have a microwave in heaven - would they understand? A magic box that heats up food! So, instead they were told something like - they will have river of wine and trees with various fruits! It is not that they were deceived - it is just that they were told what they can comprehend. Similarly any description of Hell - does not mean Hell will be a burning place IMO. It is just what those people could relate to!

So, someone from 21st century should spend time analyzing the good teachings of these books rather than concentrating on some verses that were incident specific and time specific. President George W Bush gave a speech after 9/11 back in 2001. If someone 1000 years from now listens to that speech out of context when Bush said "You cannot hide in the caves - we will smoke you out and we will find you and blow you up" - it may seem like he talking talking about going to war with all Muslims. But he wasn't! He was addressing only those responsible for 9/11 and not all Muslims. Similarly some verses let's say -tells believers to go and get their revenge and kill those who raped their wives and killed their kids - are meant against a certain group of non-believers who did just that and that verse is not for future Muslims against all future non-believers! It was incident specific for the non-believers who harmed Muslims first!

One who is reading these books in today's world needs to comprehend the setting in which those verses were written. If it is not feasible to understand the settings then why not simply concentrate on the good teachings and just go and help thy neighbor?

 

[firedragon]

Those are the clear and unequivocal words of Allah.

Can you tell me what these "Allahs words mean"?

Idhrab almaal.

Simple arabic very similar to the verse you are referring to and making claims about "unequivocal words of Allah". TO make such a claim you must be an expert.

 

[firedragon]

Verse 60:4 clearly advises Muslims to show "hate and enmity" towards non-Muslims, until they submit to Islam.
I know that you disagree with that sentiment, but it's what Allah wants from you.

KWED. Can you show me the word "non-muslim" in that verse? Lets see if where ever you took this verse from explains anything to you and you have mastered it.

Please go ahead.

 

[Spiderman]

If you disobey God and follow arrogance and path of Iblis in rejecting his representatives and means to him - you deserve the best and compassionate being to be cruel to you and put you in hell forever. If you couldn't see the paths of God for who they are and falsely thought that it's acceptable to turn away from them and it is not something to take lightly that hell is not incumbent upon these people, you really are not thinking logically out of envy towards God's chosen, same problem Iblis had when he couldn't accept Adam.

This is because his representatives guide to the light and turning away from his doors leads to the darkness and darkness is to be hated and not tolerated. In this world, we do our best, to call people back to God but everyone is responsible for their own soul.

If almost of humanity disbelieves when the final Messenger comes (the Mahdi), then not only will they go to hell, but all their cities will be destroyed, while believers will be saved from them.

You don't know that the Koran is without error!

You have judged and condemned my soul to eternal torture in hell more than once in the past week. I see the fruit the Koran is bearing in your mind and heart.

It is a complete turn off and will not win compassionate people to your Religion.

If I go to hell for opposing sadistic psychopathic cruelty, I suppose I will go to hell with other compassionate humane people with charity, mercy, and human decency.

I will be joining some very noble people in Hell. Do I really want to be in Heaven worshipping a sadistic, cruel, hateful bigot with people who bend the knee to him?

@stvdv , I think I know where we might meet each other some day.