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Have people forgotten about 9/11?

tomspug

Absorbant
Now that we're clearly winning in Iraq, it seems that the news and Congress have shut up about it. Maybe we can go back to remembering why people believe that a "war on terror" exists.

Thing is, it seems that a lot of people think that the "war on terror" is some kind of joke. Some people even think that 9/11 was staged.

In the last six years, America has been so concentrated on hating Bush that it has lost its grip on reality. While Americans argued about whether or not Saddam had WMDs, Madrid was bombed by al-Qaeda, killing hundreds of people. While people argued about troop withdrawal, al-Qaeda bombed London. While America was trying to vote for a Congress that would "get us out", Hezbollah and Palestine SIMULTANEOUSLY moved against Israel.

The evidence that there is a "war" going on is real. Every politician knows that. A Democratic president will fight it just as much as a Republican one. People forget that al-Qaeda staged an attack on the World Trade Center under the Clinton Administration as well, and it could have succeeded.

Global terrorism is real. I'm all for America minding its own business, but right now it IS minding its own business.

Remember Kuwait? We sent troops to Saudi Arabia to keep Saddam Hussein from controlling the majority of the world's oil supply. Was that wrong? Saddam Hussein had one of the largest armies in the world and access to chemical weapons (which he was planning to use against Israel). When he invaded Kuwait, he did so with the backing of almost ALL of the Arab nations.

So, did Bush intentionally lie? I don't know. But people don't realize the brilliance of the Iraq War. We created a stage for al-Qaeda to fight in a REAL war, not a terrorist war. I guarantee you that one of the purposes for the decision to go into Iraq was to create an American military presence straight in the heart of the problem. And guess what? It worked. It probably could have taken less time than it has. The Bush Administration underestimated the amount of hatred the differing factions had for each other post-Saddam. But the effect of having a democratic nation in the heart of the Arab nations is clear: it shows other Arab nations that had once believed in free markets and democracy that it CAN work.

Maybe it didn't need to take force to show them that, but how long would it have taken? How many more Arab's would needlessly kill each other and rely on the effectiveness of religious fanaticism to achieve power? The world of Islam has been stuck in history for almost 1500 years, maybe it can finally move into the 20th century.

This is about history. This is about 9/11. America was united then in believing that there are things worth fighting for, but it has become evident that in our relaxed armchairs of consumerism and wealth that the only thing we are interested in doing is defending ourselves and letting the rest of the world rot. Isn't that what politicians are saying when they say that we shouldn't be "meddling" in other countries? Did we forget about WHY we went into Korea? The result was an economically successful South Korea.

If you want history, here are some actual BAD examples of war. Jimmy Carter made the decision to assist the fight against Russia by providing fueding Afghan fanatics (as well as the ideological beginnings of al-Qaeda) with weapons. Who were we helping there but ourselves? THAT was bloodshed. No one wanted to impeach Carter. He was being a good American for fighting the Ruskies. How about when Clinton bombed Serbia? Who were we helping there? No one seemed to mind that we were killing civilians then. We were actually too busy thinking about Monica Lewinsky to care!

We need to examine who we choose to believe and what we choose to fight for. Is it our job to protect ourselves, or to protect ourselves AND our allies AND the oppressed?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
According to google, the phrase "But people don't realize the brilliance of the Iraq War" only appears on the internet here.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11. Iraq also had no weapons of mass destruction and was no more a threat to the U.S. than any of the many other dictatorships our leaders have sponsored and supported over the years.

And what are we "winning" in Iraq? I think you do not understand what is occurring there. AL-Queda has only been a small part of the fighting in Iraq. Most of the violence against the U.S. is by Sunni insurgents, backed by our good friends in Saudi Arabia.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
If this were REALLY about going after those supporting instability in Iraq, the next logical target would be Saudi Arabia rather than Iran. But it's not about that. It's about oil companies taking over the U.S. government and this administration cozying up to the economic powers in Saudi Arabia and UAE, by involving the US in the regional Muslim conflict between factions. That means "Sunni extremists" (that's right, Al Queda) are actually the allies of the Bush Administration. Annals of National Security: The Redirection: Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker

To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has coöperated with Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda.
About 80% of U.S. casualties are due to Sunni "insurgents". The Blotter: Sunni Insurgents Still Causing Most U.S. Military Deaths in Iraq

Their money comes from Saudi Arabia: Saudis reportedly funding Iraqi Sunni insurgents - USATODAY.com

So when are we bombing or invading Saudi Arabia to go after "those who give comfort and support to our enemy"?

Anybody know when . . . ?
 

tomspug

Absorbant
Wow. You are so blinded, it's ridiculous.

LOOK at the articles you post. You know that Osama bin Laden IS a Saudi, right? Maybe you didn't know that. Most of HIS money comes from Saudi Arabia because his family practically BUILT the country.

The money did NOT come from the Saudi government, which seems to be what you are implying. ALSO, that article about Sunni deaths was posted TWO years ago. Nice research there. It makes sense when the peak of discord among Iraqis was in that year. Care to give us ACTUAL data from this year?

All of your arguments are flawed. Get back to me when you're living in 2008 and not 2006, when everyone believed this crap.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
You do know that there are politicians on BOTH sides of the aisle that support the Iraq War, right?

Yes, I watched both sides house of the applaud the vote to go to "war" with Iraq. Technically, it never was a war if I recall correctly. Congress merely gave the President power to keep troops in Iraq without declaring war (note: Iraq Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia note also that Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress) not a declaration of war cf. Declaration of war by the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

However, since then, both sides of the house admit that they gave Bush the power to send troops to Iraq based on lies, and to the great embarassment of our country, everyone who said that this "war" is illegal and unjust is correct.


Or are you really that naive?

:eek:
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Wow. You are so blinded, it's ridiculous.

Which part is incorrect? Has most violence against U.S. troops not been by Sunnis? Have they not been financed and supported by people in Saudi Arabia?

You haven't rebutted anything. So I'll just take that as a sign that you can't.

LOOK at the articles you post. You know that Osama bin Laden IS a Saudi, right? Maybe you didn't know that. Most of HIS money comes from Saudi Arabia because his family practically BUILT the country.

And so we invaded and occupied Iraq . . . why . . . ? Al Queda recruits in Iraq are mostly Iraqis. So even if you mistakenly believe most of the violence and fighting has been with "Al Queda" (which it isn't, it's been with other sectarian groups, including Muktada Al Sadr and his Madhi Army), most of that emerged within Iraq after the invasion and occupation. Al Queda recruiting Iraqis to fight the U.S. occupation doesn't distract them from anything else they are doing. The whole "we fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" line is empty rhetoric to confuse the ignorant.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Exactly.

And the result has been total chaos in Afghanistan and Pakistan where Al Queda actually operates, because our troops, money and equipment have been focused on Iraq for nothing. Ironically, THEY fight us in Iraq so they don't have to fight us where THEY live - Afghanistan and Pakistan - and with amazing success as the Taliban has continued to march back from the edge of oblivion and Al Queda and its leadership continues to be largely un-harassed in the no-man's land between the two countries.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
doppelgänger;1081588 said:
Exactly.

And the result has been total chaos in Afghanistan and Pakistan where Al Queda actually operates, because our troops, money and equipment have been focused on Iraq for nothing. Ironically, THEY fight us in Iraq so they don't have to fight us where THEY live - Afghanistan and Pakistan - and with amazing success as the Taliban has continued to march back from the edge of oblivion and Al Queda and its leadership continues to be largely un-harassed in the no-man's land between the two countries.

Behold the brilliance of the Iraq war.:slap:
 

tomspug

Absorbant
doppelgänger;1081585 said:
Which part is incorrect? Has most violence against U.S. troops not been by Sunnis? Have they not been financed and supported by people in Saudi Arabia?

You haven't rebutted anything. So I'll just take that as a sign that you can't.



And so we invaded and occupied Iraq . . . why . . . ? Al Queda recruits in Iraq are mostly Iraqis. So even if you mistakenly believe most of the violence and fighting has been with "Al Queda" (which it isn't, it's been with other sectarian groups, including Muktada Al Sadr and his Madhi Army), most of that emerged within Iraq after the invasion and occupation. Al Queda recruiting Iraqis to fight the U.S. occupation doesn't distract them from anything else they are doing. The whole "we fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" line is empty rhetoric to confuse the ignorant.
Fact: the majority of the Sunni insurgency was led by Abu Masub al-Zarqawi, who later named himself as the member of a group called Al-Qaeda in Iraq.

You keep forgetting that SUNNI is a RELIGION! There are Sunni's everywhere! What exactly are you trying to argue, that there are no Sunnis in al-Qaeda or that because Sunni's are attacking the US they are NOT al-Qaeda?

Al-Qaeda in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

tomspug

Absorbant
doppelgänger;1081588 said:
Exactly.

And the result has been total chaos in Afghanistan and Pakistan where Al Queda actually operates, because our troops, money and equipment have been focused on Iraq for nothing. Ironically, THEY fight us in Iraq so they don't have to fight us where THEY live - Afghanistan and Pakistan - and with amazing success as the Taliban has continued to march back from the edge of oblivion and Al Queda and its leadership continues to be largely un-harassed in the no-man's land between the two countries.
Explain to me how the chaos in Pakistan has anything to do with al-Qaeda. It's a political situation that has nothing to do with it. Pakistan is currently where Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding, possibly near Peshawar.

Define "edge of oblivion" please. I really don't understand your argument.
 

Ringer

Jar of Clay
I remember in my Freshman year at College (2001), I had a U.S. History professor who couldn't have been younger than 75 years old. I specifically remember her telling the class something similar to, "Mark my words - Iran isn't what we are going to be worry about in the near future. Saddam Hussein and Iraq is where it's all about."

In retrospect, I wonder why she thought so because I find it ironic that shortly thereafter we had 9/11 and the decision to invade Iraq to find WMDs. I guess I just brushed it off as the ramblings of an old, confused woman. Don't know where I was going with this but maybe someone would like to respond. Since it's coming up on 7 years ago, it's becoming difficult to remember if there were events going on behind the scene that most people wouldn't have recognized that would point to a conflict with Iraq.
 

blackout

Violet.
Have people forgotten about 9/11?

I for one have not forgotten
pristine crash sites with no wreckage
Demolition in plain view
witness testimonies swept under the rug
admissions ignored and explained away
and impossible stories ad nauseum.

But people just don't want to see/hear,
so I rarely speak of the subject anymore.

But no, surely I have not forgotten,
and I never ever will.
 

Somkid

Well-Known Member
We attacked the wrong people not that Iraq was a good country or anything but it would have been more relevant to attack the Saudis. This "war" (circus) has gone on long enough it is time to make Bush bring his toys home and go to bed.
 
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