Have you ever found a single bug in Islam?

[Sees]

Could always try to be a voice of change within the religion instead of cooking up excuses

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, that is an unfair aspect of biology but that can be overcome with the proper use of birth control.

True. But another way to look at it might be, women have advantage over men, since they can get pregnant, while men cannot.

However, that has nothing to do with whether or not women should be able to be part of the decision making group of their religion.

I am not so sure, if it is any different, depending how we view this. In my view, same God who created men and women with different duties, who gave women the duty of bearing child, in His revelation, He has given certain duties to men, and certain duties to women. SO, He exempt women from the duty of working in UHJ. Simple as that.... But, the problem starts if we view this as a man-made religion made by someone with male-dominated beliefs and motives....which even in that view, it cannot be concluded as such, for according to Baha'i Scriptures girls are given higher priority than boys to have education, but if it was a male-dominated religion, we would not see something as important as education, the priority is given to all girls over all boys....while the members of UHJ are only 9 people worldwide, so it is not like every women or man could be serving in UHJ.

 

[Ingledsva]

LOL! It is not my "view!"


It is a fact!


They do not allow women into the body that creates or changes the laws, handles the money, or answers/settles disputes.


That is absolutely a patriarchal "MALE" holding of the actual power within Baha'i.


Women are not allowed to make, or change laws. And apparently they can't even actually dispute such laws, as MEN settle any disputes.

The problem with your view is, you are seeing everything with a suspicious mind, as if, there is a group of men sitting there, making plans in favour of men, or as if these individual members of UHJ are given some money or worldly or spiritual station higher than others. Since none of these are applicable, (or you need to show otherwise), therefore it cannot be said women or men are not treated equally as you concluded.


ING -- "YES THEY ARE BY THE VERY FACT OF EXCLUSION BY GENDER - to the POWER POSITION!"


But rather a more duty is put on the shoulder of men than women.


ING -- You can keep repeating this, - it won't make it so.


You as a male might choose to call it a "duty," to be in power, however, as a female held out of the Power position, I know exactly what it is. Patriarchy rearing its ugly head.


Moreover you have ignored that in some cases, such as education, the priority is given to girls over boys. Or you have ignored, that in Baha'i faith, the main leader was a women for several years.....and just looking at one thing to make a conclusion IMO, without looking at the whole picture, does not make your point,


ING -- LOL! I already said Baha'i is far ahead of Islam and the other religions of Abraham in this area. So - wrong again.


AND - you can harp about a few women reaching higher offices, - however - the FACT remains - that they are STOPPED from holding the actual POWER OFFICE because of their GENDER.


That is prejudice against women - by PATRIARCHAL males - that continue to think they have to be in actual power!



but I don't insist, you are free to have your opinion.

LOL! It is hilarious to see a MALE claiming that - ALL MALES AT THE TOP - making LAW, CHANGING LAWS, directing where money will go - OR NOT GO, and squelching debate/settling disputes - is somehow not a gender issue!


LOL! No women allowed, is a plan in favor of men.


And since women can not be a part - men - DO - make the laws for their own agenda.



*

 

[gnostic]

So, God created women so they can get pregnant because of their gender. But men cannot. Is that a discrimination in your opinion?

That woman can get pregnant is beyond the woman's control, because reproduction is biology.

Women making in decision in the direction of patriarchal Abrahamic religions, are restricted and suppressed, just because of their gender, is considered sexual discrimination.

Religion is not biology, so your comparison between religion and pregnancy as being like each other, is somewhat tenuous. Are you trying to misdirect your exchange with saint frankstein?

When the Qur'an say that wives can't be head of the house, and can be beaten for disobedience, simply because of her sex, that is one of the worse form of sexism and misogyny. It is not marriage of equals, but that of master-and-slave or master-and-servant.

Women are viewed as properties in the Qur'an, as can be seen in the verse, about wars, where they are considered to be as "loot" or "plunder", taken as slaves, whom they can be forced to have sex with their captors. Islam don't ban slavery.

Women may have been in worse condition, among contemporary Christians, and women may have certain rights, but they are still considered properties, even today, where girls can still be married off at young ages, sanctioned pedophilia.

Recently a man was arrested for marrying a 12-year-old girl, and having intercourse with her. I think her father was just as guilty for arranging the marriage, as well as the Pakistani skeikh who performed the wedding. As it can be seen, like wives, daughters are considered properties in some Muslim families too.

 

[Ingledsva]

So, God created women so they can get pregnant because of their gender. But men cannot. Is that a discrimination in your opinion?

LOL! Why would it be?


Do you not believe men are half of the equation for creating babies?


Nature decided for propagating the species, that one would carry the baby.


It would be rather stupid for each to pop out half a baby and then try to glue it together.


And I might add this is a Red Herring.


It has nothing to do with discrimination of women within Baha'i at the highest levels purely based on gender.




*

 

[InvestigateTruth]

LOL! It is hilarious to see a MALE claiming that - ALL MALES AT THE TOP - making LAW, CHANGING LAWS, directing where money will go - OR NOT GO, and squelching debate/settling disputes - is somehow not a gender issue!


LOL! No women allowed, is a plan in favor of men.


And since women can not be a part - men - DO - make the laws for their own agenda.



*

I am sorry, but to me you are going round and round, it is like you are saying, since they are men, they would certainly have an agenda! again this is a pre-judging position. You assume that if a group of men, make decisions, then sure they would be making decisions in favour of men.

 

[Ingledsva]

True. But another way to look at it might be, women have advantage over men, since they can get pregnant, while men cannot.


I am not so sure, if it is any different, depending how we view this. In my view, same God who created men and women with different duties, who gave women the duty of bearing child, in His revelation, He has given certain duties to men, and certain duties to women. SO, He exempt women from the duty of working in UHJ. Simple as that.... But, the problem starts if we view this as a man-made religion made by someone with male-dominated beliefs and motives....which even in that view, it cannot be concluded as such, for according to Baha'i Scriptures girls are given higher priority than boys to have education, but if it was a male-dominated religion, we would not see something as important as education, the priority is given to all girls over all boys....while the members of UHJ are only 9 people worldwide, so it is not like every women or man could be serving in UHJ


ING -- LOL! NO WOMEN CAN BE IN THAT POWER POSITION!.

That is simply Patriarchal Religious Gender Prejudice!


As to that "education" of girls - this was stated to be because "women raise and teach children." This in itself is gender discrimination. I know quite a few men raising children on their own, or where the woman is the breadwinner.


*

 

[InvestigateTruth]

LOL! Why would it be?


Do you not believe men are half of the equation for creating babies?


Nature decided for propagating the species, that one would carry the baby.


It would be rather stupid for each to pop out half a baby and then try to glue it together.


And I might add this is a Red Herring.


It has nothing to do with discrimination of women within Baha'i at the highest levels purely based on gender.


*

But you in the first place, say, this nature is not created by God. Therefore we don't have this belief in common to go any farther.
Again, you ignored, if Baha'i Faith central Figures were male-dominated men, then why He gave priority to girls over boys with regards to education?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That is simply Patriarchal Religious Gender Prejudice!


As to that "education" of girls - this was stated to be because "women raise and teach children." This in itself is gender discrimination. I know quite a few men raising children on their own, or where the woman is the breadwinner.


*

Oh, so you are saying in some cases the Central Figures of Baha'i Faith discriminated against men, and in some cases against women? If that's the case there is a contradiction in your argument and judgement. Either Baha'i Faith is a male-dominated religion or female-dominated. You cannot say it is both. Try to be fair in your judgement!

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I look at the story of the ants the same way I look at the story of Balaam's (edited to "donkey").

If one has a problem, so does the other.

Highly doubt anyone ever believed donkeys or ants could talk. Anyone that can write, at least...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

True. But another way to look at it might be, women have advantage over men, since they can get pregnant, while men cannot.

Well, transgender people throw a kink in that, of course. I'm a man who can get pregnant, but I suppose that's neither here nor there...

I am not so sure, if it is any different, depending how we view this. In my view, same God who created men and women with different duties, who gave women the duty of bearing child, in His revelation, He has given certain duties to men, and certain duties to women. SO, He exempt women from the duty of working in UHJ. Simple as that.... But, the problem starts if we view this as a man-made religion made by someone with male-dominated beliefs and motives....which even in that view, it cannot be concluded as such, for according to Baha'i Scriptures girls are given higher priority than boys to have education, but if it was a male-dominated religion, we would not see something as important as education, the priority is given to all girls over all boys....while the members of UHJ are only 9 people worldwide, so it is not like every women or man could be serving in UHJ.

That is just sexist nonsense. Women are not baby factories. They work and have careers. Some of them are presidents and prime ministers of nations. There is no reason why a woman can't be a part of your religion's upper government. We have 9 Supreme Court justices in the US but we managed to have multiple women on it at the same time!

 

[FearGod]

Why do some Muslims lived in self-denial?

The reality is that Christian missionaries taught and preached to many people, who couldn't read or write.

Muhammad didn't live in complete isolation, not knowing the biblical stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Solomon, Jesus, etc. He was exposed to these religions and religious icons before he became prophet.

He traveled with his uncle as an apprentice trader. Doesn't Islamic tradition state that Muhammad went to Syria with his uncle? And doesn't it say that he met a monk in this or these travels? And in Syria, missionaries frequently preach before people, not teach them to read.

He married a wealthy widow Khadijah, who inherited her late husband's trade, which also gave him opportunities to meet people. And some of his disciples were Jewish, weren't they?

You don't need to able to read, to learn.

That he learned biblical stories from other people, is far more plausible than Muhammad meeting the archangel Gabriel in a cave, who taught him everything.

Cross-culture happened, especially for people who are in the business of trading caravans, regardless of whether ones can read or not. If you seriously don't think Muhammad could not have encounter other cultures before he became a prophet, then I will leave you to your bliss in ignorance.

You didn't answer my simple question.

Again, you read,listen and use the net to gain information,then the question is

Are you greater than Shakespeare in English writing,yes or no

 

[Ingledsva]

I am sorry, but to me you are going round and round, it is like you are saying, since they are men, they would certainly have an agenda! again this is a pre-judging position. You assume that if a group of men, make decisions, then sure they would be making decisions in favour of men.

Not so.


The mere FACT that by the Laws, only men can be in this law making position, - speaks for itself, - and is gender discrimination no matter how you look at it.


That does not change - no matter how the men make decisions.



*

 

[Ingledsva]

But you in the first place, say, this nature is not created by God. Therefore we don't have this belief in common to go any farther.


ING -- Another Red-Herring!


God, or no God, has nothing to do with the Baha'i making laws to prevent women from being able to be in High Power, and make laws, and law changes, that they will be under.


This is a Patriarchal idea to keep women out of power, and it is gender discrimination.


Again, you ignored, if Baha'i Faith central Figures were male-dominated men, then why He gave priority to girls over boys with regards to education?

I already answered that question. Here it is again.


"As to that "education" of girls - this was stated to be because "women raise and teach children." This in itself is gender discrimination. I know quite a few men raising children on their own, or where the woman is the breadwinner."


*

 

[gnostic]

You didn't answer my simple question.

Again, you read,listen and use the net to gain information,then the question is

Are you greater than Shakespeare in English writing,yes or no

And I can't give you a simple answer.

A) in high school, I have only read one work of Shakespeare, so I cannot possibly compare his writing against mine.

B) what on earth does Shakespeare have to do with people learning any biblical stories without reading about them?

And C) I don't care for Shakespeare, so asking me to compare myself to him, is a matter of pointless exercise, not to mention, irrelevant to the points I was making earlier.

You have heard of Oral Tradition, haven't you? It is a common technique in the past, where people remember stories or songs, by listening and remembering.

It is more than possible for Muhammad to learn by listening than reading. Cannot Muhammad learned from Christians or Jews, without the texts.

A large part of societies back then were illiterate, but they followed whatever religions they believe in, not because they could read the scriptures, and Muhammad is example of one.

 

[FearGod]

And I can't give you a simple answer.

A) in high school, I have only read one work of Shakespeare, so I cannot possibly compare his writing against mine.

,try to compare it by now then.

B) what on earth does Shakespeare have to do with people learning any biblical stories without reading about them?

Gaining knowledge by listening or reading or both won't make everyone to become Shakespeare.

And C) I don't care for Shakespeare, so asking me to compare myself to him, is a matter of pointless exercise, not to mention, irrelevant to the points I was making earlier.

It is very relevant,but you just pretend it as not to be.

You have heard of Oral Tradition, haven't you? It is a common technique in the past, where people remember stories or songs, by listening and remembering.

If you believe that prophet Mohammed has succeeded because of such technique then could you please tell me some other famous people on earth that became such famous just because they gained that marvelous technique.

It is more than possible for Muhammad to learn by listening than reading. Cannot Muhammad learned from Christians or Jews, without the texts.

No,it isn't even possible,guessing can't be valued as facts.

A large part of societies back then were illiterate, but they followed whatever religions they believe in, not because they could read the scriptures, and Muhammad is example of one.

Yes they very easily believed him and they used to believe anything because they were illiterate,i advice you to read the story of Mohammed before making such silly points.

 

[YmirGF]

May i ask you one question and to reply me with honesty ?
My question simply is

Are You much better than William Shakespeare in writing ?
if not can you be a better than him in one day night ?

If you reply with honesty then you may understand why the quran is regarded as miraculous.

No, I am not much better than Billy Shakespeare at writing, though I did stay in a Holiday Inn once.

In my view, the challenge fails, from the get go, because the very people who would need to judge the content have a conflict of interest. There is no possibility that Muslims would EVER admit that any other work was better than the Qur'an and so any prospective project would be doomed from the start - even if the quality and content was superior to that of the Qur'an.

In all fairness, I'd be more inclined to compare Mohammad to Stephen King. King is not a particularly brilliant writer, but is still immensely popular.

 

[gnostic]

Gaining knowledge by listening or reading or both won't make everyone to become Shakespeare.

excuse me! but I don't want to write like Shakespeare. nor do I want anything I write to be compared to him.

like I said I read one work at high school, and I didn't enjoy the experience, so why would I want to be compared to him?
please read below so I can clearly understand what I am saying:

I DON'T BL@@DY LIKE SHAKESPEARE! I DON'T BL@@DY CARE FOR HIS PLAYS!
​

everyone's writing styles are different, and we no longer speak like that today, except when someone are doing Shakespearean rehearsal or performance. Shakespeare was never my inspiration.

if you really want me to answer your questions, then I would suggest you use another example, because this is not getting us anywhere.

 

[gnostic]

No, I am not much better than Billy Shakespeare at writing, though I did stay in a Holiday Inn once.

In my view, the challenge fails, from the get go, because the very people who would need to judge the content have a conflict of interest. There is no possibility that Muslims would EVER admit that any other work was better than the Qur'an and so any prospective project would be doomed from the start - even if the quality and content was superior to that of the Qur'an.

In all fairness, I'd be more inclined to compare Mohammad to Stephen King. King is not a particularly brilliant writer, but is still immensely popular.

Knowing you, I think you would prefer Rumi's over Shakespeare or the Qur'an.

 

[askersha]

When saying 2 for one thing and then 4 for the same thing then it is 4 and not 2 + 4

For example if we say we constructed a building in 2 months and then we say it was completely ready in 4 months,so the 2 months of construction is already included for the same building but in details you may say constructed in 2 months and additional work of 2 months,so that the building was completely ready in 4 months.

That is very old silly argument about the creation of the universe and i don't think that the prophet if was fabricating things to have difficulty in detailing number 6 as to be 2+2+2

[youtube]1spAMbTr4Uk[/youtube]
‫

It's a creation of your mind. I'm sure you haven't been through the link I have posted or you wouldn't have answered it this way. On your part, in fact, it is the old Zakir Naik's "cup of tea trick" where he attempts to turn a contradiction to a contradistinction. It worked there, but not here! First read the whole think in the link I posted, and then try to refute the argument. It is clear hear: CREATION = 2 DAYS, PROVISIONS/DECORATIONS = 4 DAYS, HEAVENS ETC. = 2 DAYS. Eight in all... 8...