Have you ever found a single bug in Islam?

[InvestigateTruth]

I think it is very dishonest that you (and FearGod) would claim, baselessly, that they were orbiting around the galaxy's centre, when it clearly make no mention of galaxy.
.

I think it is misguided to look for coded science in religion or have 'main' expectations to find scientific discoveries in them....and even though it does not say 'milky way' or 'galaxy', there is no way you can say, this was not intended. The point is Quran is not a science Book and its main purpose is certainly not to teach the details of science, therefore in my opinion, to expect that Quran must have said 'galaxy', is not the right expectation and view.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The last part of 21:33, say that "they" - as in the sun and moon - "float", like this Pickthall translation.

It is common primitive myth that the sun and moon "float" across the sky.

Some believed, like the Greeks and Romans, that the deities ride in chariots, pulled by horses, moving from one horizon to the other horizon, from east to west.

While others, like the Egyptians for example, believe that sun float across the sky, on a solar boat, captained by the sun god Ra, while Thoth steered the lunar boat.

The Sahih International and Yusuf Ali translations, used the words, suggest the sun and moon "swimming" or "swim", respectively. Neither words are accurate, astronomically, and give us faulty images about movements of celestial bodies.

That doesn't prove Quran is wrong. We need to consider, a revelation comes in the measure of the intelligence of the people of that time, therefore if the word used in those days was 'float', this was their measure of understanding. The point of Quran is to remind mankind that there is One God, who is the creator and He is the one who has done all those wonderful things that appears in the sight of mankind such as 'the Sun floats"...

a Muslim Hadith states:

"We (the Prophets) speak to people in the measure of their intelligences"
Science and Religion in Islam: The Link.: August 2010

 

[FearGod]

I see that a Baha'i is not above twisting words of verse on any scripture. You may say your name or alias to be InvestigateTruth, but you are more interested in the "truth" than FearGod, who posted "galactic centre" in post 798:


What does the 1st part of the verse 21:33 say?



While it is true that our entire solar system, including our Earth and our Sun, orbiting around the centre of our galaxy, it is a matter of understanding the verse as it stand. The entire verse should be in context with each other.

This can only mean that the verse is talking about night-and-day on Earth, not night-and-day of the Milky Way. There is no night-and-day in the galaxy.

The middle part also talk of only the Sun and Moon:



Why do you think it is talking about "the sun and the moon"? What give sunlight during the day-time? Why do the other side of the earth have night or darkness?

You know it...FearGod knows it...and I know it, that the sun is what give us sunlight, but due to the Earth rotating on its axis.

This is what connect the sun (as well as the moon) to the Earth. And the middle part of the verse (ie. sun and moon) is what connect to the first part of the verse (night-and-day).

The last part of the verse talk of "they" as in "the sun and the moon" orbiting something, and that something is the Earth:



I think it is very dishonest that you (and FearGod) would claim, baselessly, that they were orbiting around the galaxy's centre, when it clearly make no mention of galaxy.

The middle part of the verse, make no mention of Allah creating the galaxy or the Milky Way. In fact, this verse make no mention of god creating the stars (other than the sun). If the verse wanted to say "galaxy", it would have and should have mentioned cluster of stars, but it doesn't.

And because it mention god creating "the night and day", then it mentioning sun and moon, then it would be safe to say that the Qur'an is talking about these 2 heavenly bodies orbiting the Earth, not the galactic centre.

Hence, the Qur'an is claiming geocentric planetary motion.

You are simply twisting the verse so that it is saying this faulty scripture meet with modern astronomy, but in doing so you have taken the verse out-of-context. Speaking of galactic centre in this verse, only demonstrate that you are less than honest. Why do you do that?

The verse should be read with all contexts of it 3 parts, together. If one part, relate to the Earth (like night-and-day), then the other parts are related to the Earth.

No need for me to be dishonest and there is no reason for me to be dishonest, we are debating and if you bring to me a good and a logical proof then i'll be glad to stand with you and to refute the quran more than you could do but when you give answers that aren't based on knowledge then i have to reply according to my knowledge, but that isn't dishonesty but a logical discussion based on knowledge.

Now the problem that you understand the verse according to the English translation whereas the Arabic is much deeper and each word gives a wonderful meaning,The verse in Arabic
وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ

The word which i marked كُلٌّ is used to point for more than 2 things as in the Arabic language we say كليهما if they are 2 things and the amazing thing in the word that it also indicate that each one is independent by its own.

If i try to explain it to you in English,God didn't say both,but that little word says (all and each),that word of 2 letters is indeed amazing,it means more than 2 and at the same time it says (each one)

 

[FearGod]

The last part of 21:33, say that "they" - as in the sun and moon - "float", like this Pickthall translation.

It is common primitive myth that the sun and moon "float" across the sky.

Some believed, like the Greeks and Romans, that the deities ride in chariots, pulled by horses, moving from one horizon to the other horizon, from east to west.

While others, like the Egyptians for example, believe that sun float across the sky, on a solar boat, captained by the sun god Ra, while Thoth steered the lunar boat.

The Sahih International and Yusuf Ali translations, used the words, suggest the sun and moon "swimming" or "swim", respectively. Neither words are accurate, astronomically, and give us faulty images about movements of celestial bodies.

Whats the problem with floating,should walking be used instead.

The word "floating" is still used till our days
NASA has found a free particle accelerator floating in space

 

[gnostic]

To FearGod and InvestigateTruth:

I rather reply to you both at the same time, rather than separately about the same issue.

A verse should be relevant to what happen here on Earth, and not anywhere else outside of this solar system, and message to and for the people on Earth, and not any animal here and not to extraterrestrial life outside.

It doesn't make sense to write this whole chapter that relate to the people, on EARTH ( I must stress continuously on "Earth", because you both can't seem to grasp the concept of the languages in the verse), from the very 1st verse of Qur'an 21 to the very last verse (21:112), to have a tiniest part of the verse in the whole chapter to speak of "galaxy" or the Milky Way's galactic centre.

It beggars belief that you would both make claim galaxy's centre for this verse alone, when there are no implied meaning to the galaxy being use elsewhere, other than your (false) claims to 21:33.

Did you bother to read the close surrounding verses, that anything has to do with something outside of this Earth, like the entire galaxy?

To clarify what I mean by "close surrounding verses", I mean just a few verses before and after verse 21:33, say beginning with 21:30 to 21:37?

I would like to go through these verses with you, one at the time (with the exception to 21:33), to see if anything hint about the "galaxy".

• 21:30: it (this verse) speak of separating the sky from the earth (very similar to Genesis 1:6-8), and make all living things from water. Does any part of this verse (21:30) speak of, or hint of the galaxy?
  It is not speaking of making living creature outside of Earth, or life anywhere in the Milky Way.
• 21:31: here, it speak of creating mountains, being set firmly so Earth, so there wouldn't quake. Again, does any part of this verse, speak or imply "galaxy"?
  (This verse clearly is in error. If you ever study of seismology, you would know that earthquake can be caused by movement of mountains, but this is not the point, and would get us sidetracked from this reply.)
• 21:32: this verse speak of creating the sky or the Earth's atmosphere. The question is the same as the last 2 points. Any mention of "galaxy"?
• 21:34: this verse speak of barring immortal life on humans. Does it speak of other humans, not on Earth?
• 21:35: it speak of every humans will experience death, but before they die, they would be tested. Is it speaking of souls other than those living on Earth?
• 21:36: it speak of people who would disbelieve Muhammad. Does this verse speak of Muhammad being prophet for the entire galaxy? Yes? No?
• 21:37: it speak of man being "hasty" by nature. Does it mean humans from other part of the galaxy, or those on Earth?

None of these verses speak of, or even hint at - the "galaxy". All of it relate to life, mountains and sky on Earth, so why should 21:33 be any different?

I am not denying the sun is orbiting the galaxy centre. Just that this verse has nothing to do with galactic centre. :no: you are both trying so hard to twist the verse around so that say this.

You are debating about the verse, but you are both making false and dishonest claims on what you think the verse should say, not what the verse is actually saying.

I have no doubts whatsoever that this verse is speaking that the sun and moon is orbiting the earth, hence the author believe in geocentric planetary motion, not the heliocentric model.

This is why I distrust religious people when they tried to mix their religions with science. I have no doubt that you are both good people at heart, devout in your religions, but it also make you dishonest with your interpretations.

 

[gnostic]

Whats the problem with floating,should walking be used instead.

The word "floating" is still used till our days

Floating is still inaccurate.

Floating meaning buoyancy on the surface of liquid, or floating in air.

A) there are "surface" in space for the sun, earth, or any other celestial body to float on.
And, B) there are no air in space for any celestial bodies to "float" in.
​

Using word "float" in astronomy, is at best, metaphorical, so I wouldn't use it literally.

 

[gnostic]

No need for me to be dishonest and there is no reason for me to be dishonest, we are debating and if you bring to me a good and a logical proof then i'll be glad to stand with you and to refute the quran more than you could do but when you give answers that aren't based on knowledge then i have to reply according to my knowledge, but that isn't dishonesty but a logical discussion based on knowledge.

Now the problem that you understand the verse according to the English translation whereas the Arabic is much deeper and each word gives a wonderful meaning,The verse in Arabic
وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ

The word which i marked كُلٌّ is used to point for more than 2 things as in the Arabic language we say كليهما if they are 2 things and the amazing thing in the word that it also indicate that each one is independent by its own.

If i try to explain it to you in English,God didn't say both,but that little word says (all and each),that word of 2 letters is indeed amazing,it means more than 2 and at the same time it says (each one)

It doesn't matter what languages you are reading the verse.

Nothing in 21:33 mention "galaxy", nor imply "galaxy". It doesn't even mention group of stars, let alone galaxy, in this verse or part of the whole chapter.

You are making false claim in what the verse is saying.

It may be logical to look at modern astronomy, but the fact is that you have to look at the context of the verse, not rip it out and replace it with something else.

It is not honest at all, when I look and read your replies. You have twisted the verse out of context, for the sake of making the Quran meet with modern astronomy. I know enough of reading ancient literature and modern astronomy to understand both, and I'm not fool by your claims or interpretations.

It is modern Muslims like you that give us non-Muslims an impression or image of Islam not being a honest religion.

 

[FearGod]

Floating is still inaccurate.

Floating meaning buoyancy on the surface of liquid, or floating in air.

A) there are "surface" in space for the sun, earth, or any other celestial body to float on.
And, B) there are no air in space for any celestial bodies to "float" in.
​

Using word "float" in astronomy, is at best, metaphorical, so I wouldn't use it literally.

What about the invisible energy in the space,what is holding the universe and what keep all planets to keep floating in space,the air

Do you think if there is no air,then there is nothingness at all ?

 

[Swordfall]

hello guys! I have joined such type of religious community for the first time, and I'm curious about knowing answer for the question "have you ever found any bug in Islam?" if yes, please tell me. I was sort of polytheist before, but now i'm just a Muslim after knowing strong arguments of Muslim scholars.

Edited later: i mean is there any Islamic teaching against humanity? against science? against moral values? any mistake you ever found in Quran?

The entire surviving literature involving the testimony of Jesus of Nazareth, for starts.

The Quran is a complete revision of preexisting scripture and dogma, supposing that the apostles were, well, all liars as far as I can tell with it.

 

[FearGod]

It doesn't matter what languages you are reading the verse.

Nothing in 21:33 mention "galaxy", nor imply "galaxy". It doesn't even mention group of stars, let alone galaxy, in this verse or part of the whole chapter.

You are making false claim in what the verse is saying.

It may be logical to look at modern astronomy, but the fact is that you have to look at the context of the verse, not rip it out and replace it with something else.

It is not honest at all, when I look and read your replies. You have twisted the verse out of context, for the sake of making the Quran meet with modern astronomy. I know enough of reading ancient literature and modern astronomy to understand both, and I'm not fool by your claims or interpretations.

It is modern Muslims like you that give us non-Muslims an impression or image of Islam not being a honest religion.

The quran doesn't explain in details as it is a guidance book and not a science book.

It is we who understand what the verses meant to say,for example when mentioning that each planet is moving in its own orbit and there is day and night then we are the one who understand what that means.

For example,there is an electric switch which have ON and OFF positions,then i say to you i made this switch to make the light ON and OFF,then your question
You didn't mention the wires connected to the lamp and the switch.
Did you see how smart is your logic ?

 

[gnostic]

What about the invisible energy in the space,what is holding the universe and what keep all planets to keep floating in space,the air

Do you think if there is no air,then there is nothingness at all ?

Air is what we breath, FearGod. Air meaning "Oxygen".

The air is contained in our Earth's atmosphere.

Out in space, there are little to no oxygen in space. Certainly not enough air to keep the Sun or the Earth "afloat".

But seriously what make you think that the Earth or the Sun or Moon is "floating"?

As to invisible energy.

Which energies are you talking about?

Because there are many forms of energies. So can be more specific?

And where do you think energies come from? They don't just appear out of no where?

All energies are invisible, except perhaps electrical energy, because they electricity can sometimes be seen, like in lightning. But invisible or not, most energies can be detected and measured.

Please be more specific?

I like to see what you are talking about, and I would like to see if you know if you understand what you are talking about. It should be entertaining to speak "science". opcorn:

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have no doubts whatsoever that this verse is speaking that the sun and moon is orbiting the earth, hence the author believe in geocentric planetary motion, not the heliocentric model.

There are evidence that the Author of Quran did not describe "geocentric planetary motion". But you need to be familiar with Arabic. Now I mention two verses, by which we can tell, Quran does not describe "geocentric planetary motion":

Quran 36:38

"...وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَا...." which must be translated as: "The Sun moves in a Fixed Place"

and

Quran 36:40

"....وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ...." Which must be translated as: " All float in an orbit"

Now I like to get your attention in to two points:

In verse 36:38 That part of verse shows 'Fixity' of the Sun. While 36:40 shows ALL move in orbits.

But in "geocentric planetary motion", they did not believe The Sun moves in a Fix place, and ALL move in their orbits, did they?

 

[FearGod]

Air is what we breath, FearGod. Air meaning "Oxygen".

The air is contained in our Earth's atmosphere.

Out in space, there are little to no oxygen in space. Certainly not enough air to keep the Sun or the Earth "afloat".

But seriously what make you think that the Earth or the Sun or Moon is "floating"?

As to invisible energy.

Which energies are you talking about?

Because there are many forms of energies. So can be more specific?

And where do you think energies come from? They don't just appear out of no where?

All energies are invisible, except perhaps electrical energy, because they electricity can sometimes be seen, like in lightning. But invisible or not, most energies can be detected and measured.

Please be more specific?

I like to see what you are talking about, and I would like to see if you know if you understand what you are talking about. It should be entertaining to speak "science". opcorn:

Read here please

 

[gnostic]

Read here please

I am not at all impressed by the article, because I already know what most of what the article saying (while disagreeing with others). It is nothing new, and certain nothing impressive.

But what I really wanted to know what you know or understand of astrophysics, astronomy or cosmology, not some article that at best, is generic knowledge.

I see doesn't it mention what type of energy, but calling it the invisible energy is not very "instructive", because all energies are invisible.

Did you understand the article? Do you know what this invisible energy is talking about?

Or do you think this energy is Allah? Or in this article - brahman?

 

[gnostic]

There are evidence that the Author of Quran did not describe "geocentric planetary motion". But you need to be familiar with Arabic. Now I mention two verses, by which we can tell, Quran does not describe "geocentric planetary motion":

Quran 36:38

"...وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَا...." which must be translated as: "The Sun moves in a Fixed Place"

and

This is simply, like you as the observer, looking up at the Sun traversing the sky ("runs [on course]" or "runneth on unto", from east to west, until it the Sun set. That's what I think it mean about "stopping point" or "resting place":

And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

This verse does in any way present heliocentric system; it is still presenting the Sun moving as if in geocentric model, and then stopping (at sunset).

Again, I am not any way impress by this scientific miracle, which is grossly inaccurate.

And this verse - 36:40 prove even more that the Qur'an follow the geocentric model:

It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

C'mon, InvestigateTruth.

Look at it. Just look at it?
The sun cannot overtake the moon, does imply that both orbit around the Earth, one body is chasing the other. That's a classic view of geocentric system.

And "but each, in an orbit, swimming" or "they float each in an orbit", clearly presenting the sun and moon orbiting the Earth, ie. the geocentric model.

Triumphant Loser presenting one verse of geocentric model, and you presenting two more verses, confirming that the Qur'an followed the geocentric system, which has nothing to do with galactic centre. None of these 3 verse presented the Earth's movement, like rotating on its axis.

And you do know that sometimes, night do overtake day (36:40), namely the solar eclipse. Again, the Qur'an doesn't know what it is talking about, astronomically or scientifically.

Thank you, InvestigateTruth, you've just refuted yourself.

 

[gnostic]

That doesn't prove Quran is wrong. We need to consider, a revelation comes in the measure of the intelligence of the people of that time, therefore if the word used in those days was 'float', this was their measure of understanding. The point of Quran is to remind mankind that there is One God, who is the creator and He is the one who has done all those wonderful things that appears in the sight of mankind such as 'the Sun floats"...

If this is true, then the Qur'an is outdated, archaic, because it is in no way accurate, scientifically.

2nd, the Qur'an is often written in verses and in metaphoric way, than literal.

Science require clear and precise language, and to be literal.

The problem is not only just today's Muslims trying to mix religion with science, but when they read symbolic verses, but interpreting them as they were literally.

You should know this better than I do that there are pitfalls in mixing literals with metaphors.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is simply, like you as the observer, looking up at the Sun traversing the sky ("runs [on course]" or "runneth on unto", from east to west, until it the Sun set. That's what I think it mean about "stopping point" or "resting place":




This verse does in any way present heliocentric system; it is still presenting the Sun moving as if in geocentric model, and then stopping (at sunset).

Again, I am not any way impress by this scientific miracle, which is grossly inaccurate.

And this verse - 36:40 prove even more that the Qur'an follow the geocentric model:

I don't think so. You are not looking at a correct translation.

Once again:

وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَا

I show each part translation:

وَالشَّمْسُ = and the Sun
تَجْرِي = Flows
لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَا = in a fixed place for it.


There is nothing there as "resting place". This is a false translation, based on a similar interpretation as you have!

And let's just look exactly what it says. The Sun Flows in a fixed place for it.

In another words. the sun has its own fixed place, and in this fixed place it is flowing. We know for a fact that the Sun surface is flowing. And It is amazing to me how the Author uses the term flow in this case, as the surface of the Sun is Gases and Fluid, and not solid.

C'mon, InvestigateTruth.

Look at it. Just look at it?
The sun cannot overtake the moon, does imply that both orbit around the Earth, one body is chasing the other. That's a classic view of geocentric system.

And "but each, in an orbit, swimming" or "they float each in an orbit", clearly presenting the sun and moon orbiting the Earth, ie. the geocentric model.

Triumphant Loser presenting one verse of geocentric model, and you presenting two more verses, confirming that the Qur'an followed the geocentric system, which has nothing to do with galactic centre. None of these 3 verse presented the Earth's movement, like rotating on its axis.

And you do know that sometimes, night do overtake day (36:40), namely the solar eclipse. Again, the Qur'an doesn't know what it is talking about, astronomically or scientifically.

Thank you, InvestigateTruth, you've just refuted yourself

Again, no! Consider the previous verse as I explained above with a correct translation phrase by phrase. The Sun has a 'Fixed place'.

 

[gnostic]

I think it is misguided to look for coded science in religion

I don't, investigatetruth.

But apparently some Muslims do, and they all do so ineptly. As do some Christian creationists and ID advocates. Even the Hindus do it with their scriptures, trying to use vague-wording verses.

I am simply using their own scriptures to refute their claims of these so-called "scientific miracles".

I wouldn't even argue with Christians, Muslims, and now even Bahai like yourself, if they kept their books as books of faith and theology,. But for some silly reasons these theists are not satisfied with keeping their books of theology; they must present their scriptures as science books too.

If they are going to make unsubstantiated claims with specific verses of their holy scriptures, then they should be prepared to have their religion examined, analysed, scrutinised, debated, and refuted.

The problem is that each believer believes that his or her beloved scripture, is the work of god or gods, the book is infallible and inerrant, and they have become arrogant, cloud by their faith. And that my friend, are their Achilles' heels.

They only presented ammunition for us to shoot down their so-called "scientific claims", or funny still, they shoot themselves in their own foots.

 

[gnostic]

I don't think so. You are not looking at a correct translation.

Once again:

وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَا

I show each part translation:

وَالشَّمْسُ = and the Sun
تَجْرِي = Flows
لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَا = in a fixed place for it.


There is nothing there as "resting place". This is a false translation, based on a similar interpretation as you have!

And let's just look exactly what it says. The Sun Flows in a fixed place for it.

Again, no! Consider the previous verse as I explained above with a correct translation phrase by phrase. The Sun has a 'Fixed place'.

You're contradicting yourself.

If the sun is on orbit, then it is not in "fixed" place or position. Orbiting suggest movement on course or path. You can't have it both ways.

And they say it (sun) runneth it course, suggest movement in orbit. None of it talking about the sun's surface.

But either way, it still not talking about the sun orbiting the galactic centre, like you originally assume.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You're contradicting yourself.

If the sun is on orbit, then it is not in "fixed" place or position. You can't have it both ways.

Both are True. The Sun has a 'flowing movement' in its 'fixed place', while it is orbiting. Each represents a different type of movement. One is representing the fixity of sun relative to the moon and earth (fixed place), and the other one is representing ALL (the moon, sun, and earth..) are moving in an orbit.

Also it is noteworthy, the Quran does not describe the Moon or earth as having a 'fixed place'! and 'flowing' at the same time!!. In another words, it is clear the Author describes the movement of the Sun in a different way than other planets.