Having your period? Then go to the back of the class and sit by yourself

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So what is your definition of discrimination?

This definition works for me:

Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit

discrimination - definition of discrimination by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

 

[Sahar]

It doesn't require an "against". Here's what the law says:


Human Rights Code, R.S.O. 1990, c. H.19

Note that it says "equal", not "just as good". IOW, the school cannot use gender as the basis for the decision about where students should stand or sit in a room.

It doesn't say that separated rows are discrimination either. How do the separated rows represent unequal treatment?

Discrimination

The Ontario Human Rights Code (OHRC) does not provide a definition for the term discrimination. However, the intent and meaning of the Code along with interpretations of the term contained in judicial decisions suggest that, discrimination is differential treatment based on a personal characteristic which has an adverse impact on an individual or group.

Discrimination and Harassment Definitions

The Muslim prayer has an adverse impact on who?

 

[Willamena]

Really? I find that hard to believe, frankly. But IMO, it's more a matter of the board having a responsibility of not imposing gender discrimination on students. This responsibility would flow to anyone acting as an agent for the school... i.e. anyone given charge of the students during class time, such as the imam.

I hope we can agree that it's a good thing that they're not doing that, then. Yay.

"Agent for the school"? Did you just make that up? Why isn't the Imam given the authority of, say, a guest speaker?

The Toronto District School Board uses the term "policy" for many mandatory requirements for teachers and students... IOW, rules.

Then the Toronto District School Board is a little imprecise.

The school has to supervise students, even praying students.

And "supervision" doesn't entail directing them in their prayers. So what are you suggesting they do in their role of "supervising"?

So in the middle of the teaching day, the teacher and principal just abdicate their duty to ensure that the students are properly supervised? Like I said before, if this is what you're suggesting, then it's still problematic.

See above.

An important aspect of personal freedom is ensuring that common goods (e.g. public schools) meant for the benefit of all aren't improperly used for the benefit of only one group.

No, that's an important aspect of democratic socialism.

Based on the number of students involved, one classroom probably wouldn't be sufficient, and at lunch, the cafeteria (which may be the only space in the school large enough) is being used by students eating lunch.

In any case, as it stands now, the students aren't praying during lunch; they're doing their prayers during what's supposed to be regular class time.

 

[Sahar]

Discrimination refers to the treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit.
Discrimination Law & Legal Definition

Discrimination
To treat one particular group of people less favourably than others because of their race, colour, nationality, or ethnic or national origin. The law in Britain recognises two kinds of discrimination: direct and indirect.
Definition: Discrimination

I want to know the Muslim rows of prayer in a school cafeteria make a distinction in favor or against who? Or treat who less favorably?

 

[Father Heathen]

And if you accommodate the practice of one religion, you have to accommodate all of them. What this ends up with is a situation where anything that someone calls "religious" is automatically allowed.

Precisely.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It doesn't say that separated rows are discrimination either. How the separated rows represent unequal treatment?

The front of the room and the back of the room are different. This is enough to make them unequal.

Discrimination and Harassment Definitions

The Muslim prayer has an adverse impact on who?

Since you ask:

- it has an adverse impact on Muslim students generally, since they miss out on class time because of the prayers.
- it has an adverse impact on female Muslim students, since they are relegated to an inferior area during the prayer service, and since they are excluded on a regular basis when they are menstruating.
- it has an adverse impact on non-Muslim students generally, since their classes are disrupted by the absence of their classmates.
- it has an adverse impact on religious non-Muslim students, because under this arrangement, they are denied their Charter right to equal protection and benefit under the law without discrimination based on religion.

 

[waitasec]

And if you accommodate the practice of one religion, you have to accommodate all of them. What this ends up with is a situation where anything that someone calls "religious" is automatically allowed.

Precisely.

i agree...

this gets to the root of the problem, i don't understand how common sense isn't so common.

 

[Sahar]

The front of the room and the back of the room are different. This is enough to make them unequal.


Since you ask:

- it has an adverse impact on Muslim students generally, since they miss out on class time because of the prayers.

So this is discrimination?

- it has an adverse impact on non-Muslim students generally, since their classes are disrupted by the absence of their classmates.

So the Muslim prayer is discrimination against non Muslims?! :areyoucra Also, how did you reach this conclusion?

- it has an adverse impact on religious non-Muslim students, because under this arrangement, they are denied their Charter right to equal protection and benefit under the law without discrimination based on religion.

Who denied their right?

- it has an adverse impact on female Muslim students, since they are relegated to an inferior area during the prayer service, and since they are excluded on a regular basis when they are menstruating.

What is the inferior area during the prayer? When the non praying group sit behind the praying group, how does this have an adverse effect on the non participating group?

Secondly, who said that the girls are excluded? Why did you assume so? What if the girls don't want to take part in the prayers? What are the adverse effects on the girls who are not participating in the prayers?

 

[waitasec]

So this is discrimination?
So the Muslim prayer is discrimination against non Muslims?! :areyoucra

yup..it's disruptive....:yes:

 

[Willamena]

The front of the room and the back of the room are different. This is enough to make them unequal.

So are the left and the right of the room. So who is discriminated against, the conservatives or the liberals?

 

[beenie]

What really bothers me in this discussion is the assumption that Muslim women or girls don't have a will, can't speak for themselves and somehow need a non Muslim saver. And this is the real degrading attitude.

Let's be clear, Muslim women have the absolute freedom to attend the congregational prayer at the mosque or not, Islamically speaking. Most Muslim women don't bother and pray where they are whether their homes or a room in their workplace, etc. If any woman goes to the mosque to attend the congregational prayer, it's because she desires it and is willing to exert more effort to pray.

If any women feel inferior at the mosque, she doesn't have to participate. It's that simple. This applies to the Muslim girls of that Canadian school.

In fact, no one can force anyone to pray at all.

Secondly, anyone who won't participate in the prayer, s/he shouldn't disturb its order and so s/he must take any side.
If you saw women who were taking sides without participating in the prayer, it's none of your business if they were on their menses or not.

This is very true. Clearly Muslim girls don't feel discriminated against, or they would speak up about it and resolve it themselves. Perhaps the girls will choose to pray in an entirely different room...who knows? Once the allowance has been made, it's not really the school's deal as to where and how the Muslim students pray, so long as they're not trying to enforce gender segregation on the rest of the student body (and they pray only in the provided area).

I'd be inclined to believe the idea that they don't know any different if we were discussing girls in a tribal village in Afghanistan, but I can almost guarantee you that the majority of these girls were predominantly raised in Canada. They know they are separated from the men and as far as I can tell, they don't seem to care.

As far as the school indirectly condoning this "discriminatory" practice, I don't see it as any different than having a girls' sports team and a boys' sports team...never shall the two genders compete.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

If I was menstruating, I don't think I would want to bend over however many times they do in prayer. But I will never have that issue, so I can't really say anything. And if you do, I would think it would be a good idea to be by the restrooms, or near the exit so you can make a quick exit if needed. That's just me.

 

[Songbird]

So are the left and the right of the room. So who is discriminated against, the conservatives or the liberals?

The middle!! We have no camp! Except:

Rally to Restore Sanity

It's old news, but funny. Check out the "photos" tab to see signs people made for the rally. People came up with some great slogans.

In other news, this thread has branched out into multiple issues, and I think I've lost steam.

 

[Draka]

So are the left and the right of the room. So who is discriminated against, the conservatives or the liberals?

:clap Just want to say how much I love this.

 

[ChristineES]

And if you accommodate the practice of one religion, you have to accommodate all of them. What this ends up with is a situation where anything that someone calls "religious" is automatically allowed.

Under this mindset, the only practical position is to not have any religious accommodation at all.

Personally, I disagree with this approach. I think it's perfectly legitimate to allow reasonable accommodation. This includes the ability of whatever body is granting the accommodation to decide what "reasonable" is and to refuse to go beyond this limit.

I didn't like them giving special treatment in the first place, accommodating one religion over all others. But since they did give accommodation, they have to deal with it the way the do it- and they have to continue to deal with it until they stop accommodating them. If it were up to me, no religion would have this accommodation at all- they would pray at home before school or go home for lunch and pray then. School is for learning.

 

[darkendless]

I didn't like them giving special treatment in the first place, accommodating one religion over all others. But since they did give accommodation, they have to deal with it the way the do it- and they have to continue to deal with it until they stop accommodating them. If it were up to me, no religion would have this accommodation at all- they would pray at home before school or go home for lunch and pray then. School is for learning.

Spot on here. Look everyone has a right to religion and all that but no one should have a right to interupt their learning or cause any form of disturbance to anyone because of it.

Clearly there is an isue with the segregation of women and more particularly women on their period so it seems that its not worth the hassle it has caused.

 

[croak]

Groups protest Muslim prayers at Toronto public school - CityNews

Seems they've been doing it for three years, and nobody really cared for the most part.

Opposing prayer in Toronto public schools, with dignity - Canada, Opinion - Macleans.ca
The leader of the Canadian Hindu Advocacy seems like a rather unsavoury character as well.

 

[Willamena]

Groups protest Muslim prayers at Toronto public school - CityNews

Seems they've been doing it for three years, and nobody really cared for the most part.

Which, to me, says that the program is working for those involved.

Those not involved are not affected.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Discrimination refers to the treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit.
Discrimination Law & Legal Definition

Discrimination
To treat one particular group of people less favourably than others because of their race, colour, nationality, or ethnic or national origin. The law in Britain recognises two kinds of discrimination: direct and indirect.
Definition: Discrimination

I want to know the Muslim rows of prayer in a school cafeteria make a distinction in favor or against who? Or treat who less favorably?

Okay... I'll concede: forcing one group to stand or sit behind another group isn't discriminatory to the group that's put in the back.

This means that if a teacher at the school decided that, for his regular classes, the Muslim students should sit in the back and the non-Muslim students should sit in the front, we shouldn't consider it discriminatory... right?



You know, I've never encountered a group of people who argue that segregation isn't discriminatory until this thread.

So this is discrimination?

It's an adverse impact, which is what you asked for.

So the Muslim prayer is discrimination against non Muslims?! :areyoucra Also, how did you reach this conclusion?

Yes, it's discrimination. Muslim students can choose to participate or not. OTOH, it would be difficult for the remaining non-Muslim students (or Muslim students who chooses not to participate in the prayer service) to do group work while half their group is missing from the class.

Also, the mere act of having a large number of students moving around would disrupt the class when they enter and leave.

On top of this, the students attending prayer are missing instructional time. The teacher has two choices for how to deal with this:

- force the Muslim students to learn what was covered by themselves, which would have a detrimental effect on their education.
- stop the class to go over the material that the Muslim students missed, which would be detrimental to the non-Muslim students, since it would deny them instructional time when they could be learning something else.

Who denied their right?

In this case, it was apparently the principal and the school board.

What is the inferior area during the prayer? When the non praying group sit behind the praying group, how does this have an adverse effect on the non participating group?

Well, as I said before, you've convinced me: forcing people to the back isn't inferior. And in that spirit, I hope you will join me in supporting a movement to have public schools make the back of the class the Muslim seating section. After all, this wouldn't be objectionable at all, right?

Secondly, who said that the girls are excluded? Why did you assume so? What if the girls don't want to take part in the prayers? What are the adverse effects on the girls who are not participating in the prayers?

What would be the adverse effect of posting the names of all the girls in class who are menstruating on the class bulletin board? Physically separating the menstruating girls from everyone else has the same effect.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Note: I've shuffled around quotes from two people to group them by topic...

This is very true. Clearly Muslim girls don't feel discriminated against, or they would speak up about it and resolve it themselves. Perhaps the girls will choose to pray in an entirely different room...who knows? Once the allowance has been made, it's not really the school's deal as to where and how the Muslim students pray, so long as they're not trying to enforce gender segregation on the rest of the student body (and they pray only in the provided area).

I didn't like them giving special treatment in the first place, accommodating one religion over all others. But since they did give accommodation, they have to deal with it the way the do it- and they have to continue to deal with it until they stop accommodating them.

So... the consensus is that limits on religious accommodation are untenable, and that once religion is accommodated at all, this necessarily implies accommodation to whatever extent the accommodated group deems is necessary? IOW, that reasonable accommodation is a pipe dream?

I'd be inclined to believe the idea that they don't know any different if we were discussing girls in a tribal village in Afghanistan, but I can almost guarantee you that the majority of these girls were predominantly raised in Canada. They know they are separated from the men and as far as I can tell, they don't seem to care.

The school's in an area with a high proportion of immigrants in a city with a high proportion of immigrants, so it's doubtful that they were mostly raised in Canada. Still, this is probably irrelevant to the point you're raising about them knowing the difference or not.

As far as the school indirectly condoning this "discriminatory" practice, I don't see it as any different than having a girls' sports team and a boys' sports team...never shall the two genders compete.

You may have a point, and personally I'd prefer for the teams to be divided on straight size or ability and not gender, but there have been a few traditional reasons given for the division:

- Ontario law allows gender discrimination where the objective is the improvement of conditions for a protected group that would otherwise be disadvantaged. If the girls wouldn't have a fair chance on a sports team with the boys, then providing the girls with their own team allows them to participate more fully, thereby preventing this disadvantage. I'm not sure how much I agree with this justification (especially at a middle school, where the kids are going to be a wide range of sizes and abilities within one age group anyhow, regardless of gender), but it's commonly given and (IIRC) accepted by the courts.

- Ontario law also allows gender discrimination for "public decency", which is the provision that allows separate washrooms and change rooms. If mixed teams would allow the players opportunities to engage in unwelcome groping or other inappropriate contact on members of the opposite sex, then separate sports teams might be protected under this provision.

If it were up to me, no religion would have this accommodation at all- they would pray at home before school or go home for lunch and pray then. School is for learning.

In general I agree, but I'm not adverse to some measure of reasonable accommodation for religion in schools. However, my stance changes if the administration has no way to stop things from getting out of hand.