Having your period? Then go to the back of the class and sit by yourself

[Kilgore Trout]

I got a different message from what Poisonshady said. What I got from it was something like "whatever rules the school sets for Muslim prayer on school grounds, we don't have to worry that we're imposing cultural standards on the Muslim students, because if they find the school's requirements to be in conflict with their own religious or cultural beliefs, they can just decline to participate."

Yeah, I may have misunderstood his particular comment.

My comment was more a general one regarding the concept of "voluntary" when it comes to people who aren't yet adults. It's hardly meaningful to describe their "decisions" as voluntary when it comes to things that are prescribed culturally or socially.

 

[Willamena]

I've searched to see if the school's side in this is represented on the Internet, without luck. Do you know of any links?
Edit: Ha, nevermind. Just glommed onto the right search criteria and found it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've searched to see if the school's side in this is represented on the Internet, without luck. Do you know of any links?

Here's the statement from the school board:

Director statement re Religious accommodation for Muslim prayer service at a TDSB school

Edit: Ha, nevermind. Just glommed onto the right search criteria and found it.

Edit: never mind, then!

 

[beenie]

I've already suggested one way to deal with it: change the timing of lunch.

Students are free to leave the school grounds on lunch, and there's a nearby mosque within walking distance. If the Muslim students choose to use this time for prayer, that's their own business... just like if a student chooses to use this time to go to the convenience store, that's his own business. Beyond checking to see if the timing of lunch works with the prayer time requirements, the school doesn't need to be involved at all.

Missed that, sorry. ok, so they're going back on their word. Got it.
You know I suggested the same to begin with in another thread, but they've already allowed it, right?

If the school is going to accommodate Muslim beliefs and practices but not Hindu beliefs and practices, then I think they do.

OK, fair enough.

I don't know - maybe they have a thing for equality. Some people are funny that way.

Has anyone asked the Muslims if they feel "inequality" in their prayer or do the "dumb-ol" Muslims need Hindus and the Canadian school system to define it for them?

So weight gives you an advantage in prayer?

What sort of prayers are you doing?

Nice. I never said that, you knew what I meant. You divided my quote making it seem I'm comparing weight to prayer.

It can't be made any more for prayer than it could be for class time, and public schools have largely rejected the idea of segregating classes to lessen distraction. In Ontario, if you want your child taught in an environment without the opposite sex, you would have to send your child to a private school.

This goes back to the original point. We're going in circles. Either the school relinquishes the right for Muslims to pray in congregation or they let them segregate in prayer.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Missed that, sorry. ok, so they're going back on their word. Got it.
You know I suggested the same to begin with in another thread, but they've already allowed it, right?

They don't have to continue allowing it. It's not like a school has to continue its approach forever, especially if a better approach is suggested.

Has anyone asked the Muslims if they feel "inequality" in their prayer or do the "dumb-ol" Muslims need Hindus and the Canadian school system to define it for them?

I meant equality on the basis of religion. There's a double standard here with Muslim students on one side and students of other religions (or no religion) on the other.

Nice. I never said that, you knew what I meant, and didn't quote the rest of my statement backing my point.

No, I don't know what you mean. Are you saying that the Muslim girls at that school would be at risk of physical violence if they mixed with the Muslim boys?

Since they're mixed most of the time in their classes and (apparently) this hasn't been an issue, I'm not sure why this would be a concern at prayer time.

This goes back to the original point. We're going in circles. Either the school relinquishes the right for Muslims to pray in congregation or they let them segregate in prayer.

Why are those the only options?

What's wrong with the school setting up rules for the use of the space, and the students (or parents) deciding whether or not it meets their requirements?

 

[Willamena]

Here's the statement from the school board:

Director statement re Religious accommodation for Muslim prayer service at a TDSB school


Edit: never mind, then!

Thanks.

 

[beenie]

They don't have to continue allowing it. It's not like a school has to continue its approach forever, especially if a better approach is suggested.

True, and I suppose they can retract it. I'm all for the better approach, as I'm not fond of prayer in public schools at all.

I meant equality on the basis of religion. There's a double standard here with Muslim students on one side and students of other religions (or no religion) on the other.

That problem would be solved if they switched the lunch time and Muslims went to the nearby mosque instead, as you suggested and I agreed (other thread).

No, I don't know what you mean. Are you saying that the Muslim girls at that school would be at risk of physical violence if they mixed with the Muslim boys?

Since they're mixed most of the time in their classes and (apparently) this hasn't been an issue, I'm not sure why this would be a concern at prayer time.

Not physical, I'm talking about distraction (talking, flirting, etc.) This is why I've always argued that Muslims should pray outside of the school. Of course they're all in class together and of course they communicate and flirt...but prayer is different.

Why are those the only options?

What's wrong with the school setting up rules for the use of the space, and the students (or parents) deciding whether or not it meets their requirements?

It won't meet the requirements if they are forced to pray mixed. This is why bringing religion into the public schools is almost always a disaster. The rules are based on secular beliefs (as they should be) and religions cannot acclimate to those standards. I say have them go the mosque and this won't be an issue.

 

[Willamena]

Beyond checking to see if the timing of lunch works with the prayer time requirements, the school doesn't need to be involved at all.

Actually, the school board does need to be involved, which also explains why they are involved. It's explained in that letter you linked me to. Like the Alberta school boards, the TDSB has mandated an obligation to work with the community in the exercise of their operations. Primary on their list of policies is "serving our students and community." I quote,

"Where religious accommodation is concerned, the law is quite clear: freedom of religion in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms supersedes the Education Act. As a public school board, we have a responsibility and an obligation to accommodate faith needs." And it adds, "Providing this religious accommodation does not violate any Board policies since the service is not a Board or school activity." (Which is what I was saying earlier.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That problem would be solved if they switched the lunch time and Muslims went to the nearby mosque instead, as you suggested and I agreed (other thread).

Okay - cool.

Not physical, I'm talking about distraction (talking, flirting, etc.) This is why I've always argued that Muslims should pray outside of the school. Of course they're all in class together and of course they communicate and flirt...but prayer is different.

I'm not sure how prayer is different, and I don't see why boys and girls would be more prone to talk to each other during prayer than a group of friends all of the same gender would be prone to talk amongst themselves.

It won't meet the requirements if they are forced to pray mixed. This is why bringing religion into the public schools is almost always a disaster. The rules are based on secular beliefs (as they should be) and religions cannot acclimate to those standards.

That's entirely possible. I recognize that some religious beliefs can't be accommodated by the system I propose. For instance, hopefully we both agree that it would be inappropriate for a Rastafarian high school student to smoke marijuana in school, even though the Rastafarian religion considers this a sacrament.

For me, the question is where the line should be between what's accommodated and what's not. And for me, when we're talking about a middle school, things like segregated prayer and weapons (not a Muslim requirement, I know, but they were the focus of another big accommodation debate in Toronto a few years back) cross that line.

I say have them go the mosque and this won't be an issue.

I agree.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Actually, the school board does need to be involved, which also explains why they are involved. It's explained in that letter you linked me to. Like the Alberta school boards, the TDSB has mandated an obligation to work with the community in the exercise of their operations. Primary on their list of policies is "serving our students and community." I quote,

"Where religious accommodation is concerned, the law is quite clear: freedom of religion in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms supersedes the Education Act. As a public school board, we have a responsibility and an obligation to accommodate faith needs." And it adds, "Providing this religious accommodation does not violate any Board policies since the service is not a Board or school activity." (Which is what I was saying earlier.)

As I said earlier, it's very problematic for a school to wash its hands of responsibility for its students while they're on school grounds during school hours.

Even if the prayer itself isn't a "Board or school activity", the act of the principal, a paid employee of the Board acting as an official representative of the school, granting permission for the prayer to occur most certainly is a Board or school activity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Where religious accommodation is concerned, the law is quite clear: freedom of religion in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms supersedes the Education Act. As a public school board, we have a responsibility and an obligation to accommodate faith needs." And it adds, "Providing this religious accommodation does not violate any Board policies since the service is not a Board or school activity." (Which is what I was saying earlier.)

BTW - speaking of the Education Act, when I was doing some reading about this issue, I found this gem:

Duties
Duties of teacher
264. (1) It is the duty of a teacher and a temporary teacher,

[...]

religion and morals
(c) to inculcate by precept and example respect for religion and the principles of Judaeo-Christian morality and the highest regard for truth, justice, loyalty, love of country, humanity, benevolence, sobriety, industry, frugality, purity, temperance and all other virtues;

Education Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. E.2

So... apparently, Christianity and Judaism (but not Islam) are entitled to special status under the law in our supposedly secular public schools.

Some of our laws are kinda messed up.

 

[Willamena]

BTW - speaking of the Education Act, when I was doing some reading about this issue, I found this gem:


Education Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. E.2

So... apparently, Christianity and Judaism (but not Islam) are entitled to special status under the law in our supposedly secular public schools.

Some of our laws are kinda messed up.

Yeah. Even the term "Judaeo-Christian" is inappropriate.

 

[Willamena]

As I said earlier, it's very problematic for a school to wash its hands of responsibility for its students while they're on school grounds during school hours.

Even if the prayer itself isn't a "Board or school activity", the act of the principal, a paid employee of the Board acting as an official representative of the school, granting permission for the prayer to occur most certainly is a Board or school activity.

What makes you think they are "washing their hands of responsibility" though? That's the interpretation that's baffling. They are doing what the school board is supposed to do, what government is supposed to do, and what they were elected to do.

The school board is the level of government that is supposed to work directly with communities in regards to the students of those communities.

Edit: I'm off early. Have a good weekend.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What makes you think they are "washing their hands of responsibility" though? That's the interpretation that's baffling. They are doing what the school board is supposed to do, what government is supposed to do, and what they were elected to do.

Parents hand their kids off to the school in the morning. They get them back in the afternoon. Between those times, the school - the teachers and principal - have responsibility for what happens to the students.

If the prayer time has nothing to do with the school, then the school is not supervising and caring for the students, as is their responsibility during class hours.

It's the duty of the school, principal and teachers to adequately supervise and protect the students under their care between certain appointed times. If the school, principals, and teachers have nothing to do with the prayer service, then there is a "hole" in the care and supervision they have a duty to provide.

Consider a hypothetical situation: two of the students get into a fight during the prayer service in the cafeteria. What would happen?

If the director's statement is correct and the prayer service really isn't a school activity, then nothing would happen. The fact that the students got into a fight would be no concern of the school. In their eyes, it would be no different than if the fight had happened at home on the weekend.

However, I suspect that if this actually happened, the school would become involved and the students who fought would be punished by the school... indicating that the school is actually involved on some level with what goes on during the prayer service.


Edit:

The school board is the level of government that is supposed to work directly with communities in regards to the students of those communities.

The school board is also the level of government that's supposed to supervise schoolchildren during school hours. The director's statement implies that they're not doing that during prayer time, despite the fact that it involves schoolchildren and it occurs during school hours.

 

[blackout]

*Thinks about (female) cheerleaders on the sidelines
cheering on the (males) out on the field*

*Wonders, in a practical sense, what the school's real role in "gender equality" is anyway".

eh

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

*Thinks about (female) cheerleaders on the sidelines
cheering on the (males) out on the field*

*Wonders, in a practical sense, what the school's real role in "gender equality" is anyway".

eh

It's a middle school. I doubt they have cheerleaders.

AFAIK, high school cheerleading teams around here are open to guys and girls... though the majority of cheerleaders tend to be girls. We can provide equal opportunity, but we can't force people to take that opportunity.

And at my high school, I don't think the cheerleaders even cheered at the football games. IIRC, they would cheer mainly at pep rallies (which would cover all the school's sports teams, not just the boys' football team) and at assemblies.

Sports don't tend to be as big a deal at schools in Canada as they are in the US. Edit: except maybe hockey.

... That being said, the school in question here is apparently raising money to build a cricket pitch, which I think is pretty cool. My high school had a cricket team, but I think they just played on the football field.

 

[blackout]

Well football is certainly designed around male strength and physique.

I suppose they would let an unusually large/brawny/strong female
go out for the team?
What if they would only let her be a full back?

 

[blackout]

AFAIK, high school cheerleading teams around here are open to guys and girls... though the majority of cheerleaders tend to be girls. We can provide equal opportunity, but we can't force people to take that opportunity.

And maybe some of the guys might decide they want to go and pray in the back of the room with the girls. ?

 

[Peace]

I couldn't go through the whole thread but I would like to say to the author of the OP and to some other posters here go and educate yourself about Islam before writing such ignorance. Signing the petition means signing and admitting your ignorance.
Menstruating girls/women do not perform the five daily prayers in the first place. Sitting in the back rows has nothing to do with discrimination. Those girls with their menses are not supposed to be there but I assume they were there because they were interested to listen to the Friday Sermon.
If you are going to tell me how they coudn't pray?, I would say Muslim prayer is different from the prayer you know. Go and google or watch a Muslim prayer in youtube that would give you an idea of what prayer is in islam. What you call prayer we call "Du`a" which means supplication. We can make du'a whenever we want and at anytime but prayer, the five daily prayers, menstruating women are excused and don't perform it. That's a teaching of my religion Islam and I wonder how some peole just want to poke their nose in others' business.
Did any Muslim female complain to you??:sarcastic

 

[Skwim]

I couldn't go through the whole thread but I would like to say to the author of the OP and to some other posters here go and educate yourself about Islam before writing such ignorance. Signing the petition means signing and admitting your ignorance.

I'm the author of the OP, and I presented two things

1. a quote from an on-line article
2. a remark about the need to submit a petition to correct what is seen as discrimination.
​

The girls were described as being "ostracized," "unclean," "third class citizens," and "shamed." And believe it or not, I and most other people are not about to delve into any subject, Islam or otherwise, to check the veracity of a news story.
Is this what you do when you come across news stories: take the time to educate yourself about everything that's presented? Yeah, sure. Your little snit here really rings hollow.