Heaven and Hell... Illogical?

[Araceli Cianna]

So here's the thing. When you look at the natural world, sure there are prisons for 'bad' people, but they are still in this world. The idea that the afterlife is split into these two distinct good and bad realms to me doesn't make sense. Wouldn't it make more sense that an afterlife mirrors nature and is just one 'realm', where people are all over the moral spectrum? We get on fine just enough here with our societal structures for punishing wrong doing. Why can an afterlife not be a mirror image of the same but just more advanced? In my opinion I feel that so called 'bad' behaviour is actually incorrect programming of nature, some kind of defect that needs correcting. I feel that criminals don't need punishing more than they need biochemical rehabilitating. Surely if an all loving God/Deity exists that rules everything and judges everything realises that 'bad' people are not inherently bad, that they are just a result of their nature and nurture? Psychopaths for example have different brain structure to everyone else. That's not their fault, they were born that way. Why should they be punished for the way they were born? Wouldn't it be better and more loving to 'cure' the psychopathy as a complex mental illness and rehabilitate them to fit into society? Shouldn't this be what happens in a so called afterlife? Not punishment, because punishment is primitive. But rehabilitation?

Because life is not all black and white too but a multitude of colours. And shouldn't an afterlife be more like an enhanced version of that multitude? Rather than a reverse to a more simplified approach to reality?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Because life is not all black and white too but a multitude of colours. And shouldn't an afterlife be more like an enhanced version of that multitude? Rather than a reverse to a more simplified approach to reality?

Why assume that there is an afterlife? Do we not turn to stinky horrible filth when we die? Just because it is horrible doesn't mean its not real.

 

[Quintessence]

Why assume that there is an afterlife? Do we not turn to stinky horrible filth when we die? Just because it is horrible doesn't mean its not real.

Indeed - some would suggest that the idea of afterlives is illogical from the gate, regardless of variety.

I'm not sure I'd be such a person to suggest such things. "Illogical" is too strong of a word. I would say that the idea of afterlives is weird to me. It's like people don't recognize that everything is always changing and transforming, or exchanging matter/energy. They then think there's some "end." That's weird to me. What's after life? More life! It doesn't stop. It keeps going, and going, and going...

 

[bobhikes]

So here's the thing. When you look at the natural world, sure there are prisons for 'bad' people, but they are still in this world. The idea that the afterlife is split into these two distinct good and bad realms to me doesn't make sense. Wouldn't it make more sense that an afterlife mirrors nature and is just one 'realm', where people are all over the moral spectrum? We get on fine just enough here with our societal structures for punishing wrong doing. Why can an afterlife not be a mirror image of the same but just more advanced? In my opinion I feel that so called 'bad' behaviour is actually incorrect programming of nature, some kind of defect that needs correcting. I feel that criminals don't need punishing more than they need biochemical rehabilitating. Surely if an all loving God/Deity exists that rules everything and judges everything realises that 'bad' people are not inherently bad, that they are just a result of their nature and nurture? Psychopaths for example have different brain structure to everyone else. That's not their fault, they were born that way. Why should they be punished for the way they were born? Wouldn't it be better and more loving to 'cure' the psychopathy as a complex mental illness and rehabilitate them to fit into society? Shouldn't this be what happens in a so called afterlife? Not punishment, because punishment is primitive. But rehabilitation?

Because life is not all black and white too but a multitude of colours. And shouldn't an afterlife be more like an enhanced version of that multitude? Rather than a reverse to a more simplified approach to reality?

I look at it this way and scripture seems to point to the fact, that heaven and hell are of your own making. When you move on you will know what this life was about and know how you lived your life. You will punish or reward yourself. Things that I feel I have done wrong in this life haunt me when ever I get depressed, if in the next life I know what I did was wrong, how would I feel, what would I do to cleanse myself, when would it be enough? I don't believe a loving God would punish us but looking at how we live, I feel we would provide our worse punishment.

 

[Araceli Cianna]

Why assume that there is an afterlife? Do we not turn to stinky horrible filth when we die? Just because it is horrible doesn't mean its not real.

Well, I'm saying IF there's an afterlife. I'm agnostic so I haven't a clue. Just hypothetically speaking.

 

[Araceli Cianna]

Indeed - some would suggest that the idea of afterlives is illogical from the gate, regardless of variety.

I'm not sure I'd be such a person to suggest such things. "Illogical" is too strong of a word. I would say that the idea of afterlives is weird to me. It's like people don't recognize that everything is always changing and transforming, or exchanging matter/energy. They then think there's some "end." That's weird to me. What's after life? More life! It doesn't stop. It keeps going, and going, and going...

Maybe illogical is too strong a word I just don't understand the black vs white thing, because nothing in reality is actually like that. Why would it apply to an afterlife?

But in regards to if there's an afterlife, I guess it's 'illogical' too to say there is one. But what do I know! Maybe if an afterlife exists and that's illogical, maybe the afterlife is equally just the illogical black and white

 

[Brickjectivity]

Well, I'm saying IF there's an afterlife. I'm agnostic so I haven't a clue. Just hypothetically speaking.

I was hinting about that. If afterlife, I do not see why it would be comfortable. In this life we have tools and ways of fending off suffering sometimes. Without them life is horrible. What tools do we have to help us in an afterlife? If none, then there's no reason to expect it will be pleasant.

 

[Quintessence]

Maybe illogical is too strong a word I just don't understand the black vs white thing, because nothing in reality is actually like that. Why would it apply to an afterlife?

But in regards to if there's an afterlife, I guess it's 'illogical' too to say there is one. But what do I know! Maybe if an afterlife exists and that's illogical, maybe the afterlife is equally just the illogical black and white

I feel like following the train back a little bit and say it's illogical for humans to fixate on being logical. We're not wired that way, and aspiring to be logical all the time robs life of its inspiration and joy (emotion is not, after all, logical). When it comes to stories about afterlives, whether or not it is logical is irrelevant next to whether or not it is inspiring, IMO.

Some find black-and-white narratives inspiring. They must find them inspiring, as they are very abundant in my culture. I don't like them, but I also don't like football - somehow football has a veritable cult following and is something of a pseudoreligion. Each to their own aesthetics, I suppose.

 

[Mindmaster]

Maybe illogical is too strong a word I just don't understand the black vs white thing, because nothing in reality is actually like that. Why would it apply to an afterlife?

But in regards to if there's an afterlife, I guess it's 'illogical' too to say there is one. But what do I know! Maybe if an afterlife exists and that's illogical, maybe the afterlife is equally just the illogical black and white

Unfortunately, or fortunately logic has nothing to do with it. It's there or it isn't, what we think about it is irrelevant. I find it strange that you mention these things because pagans generally have very finite "afterlife" beliefs, though you seem to be in debate. As cheesy as it sounds my suggestion will always be to pray on these matters and ask directly from the source... I have no doubt you will be shown exactly what you need to see.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

So here's the thing. When you look at the natural world, sure there are prisons for 'bad' people, but they are still in this world. The idea that the afterlife is split into these two distinct good and bad realms to me doesn't make sense. Wouldn't it make more sense that an afterlife mirrors nature and is just one 'realm', where people are all over the moral spectrum? We get on fine just enough here with our societal structures for punishing wrong doing. Why can an afterlife not be a mirror image of the same but just more advanced? In my opinion I feel that so called 'bad' behaviour is actually incorrect programming of nature, some kind of defect that needs correcting. I feel that criminals don't need punishing more than they need biochemical rehabilitating. Surely if an all loving God/Deity exists that rules everything and judges everything realises that 'bad' people are not inherently bad, that they are just a result of their nature and nurture? Psychopaths for example have different brain structure to everyone else. That's not their fault, they were born that way. Why should they be punished for the way they were born? Wouldn't it be better and more loving to 'cure' the psychopathy as a complex mental illness and rehabilitate them to fit into society? Shouldn't this be what happens in a so called afterlife? Not punishment, because punishment is primitive. But rehabilitation?

Because life is not all black and white too but a multitude of colours. And shouldn't an afterlife be more like an enhanced version of that multitude? Rather than a reverse to a more simplified approach to reality?

There can be no such thing as good and evil without choice, and so there can be no such thing as a place of pure good, unless populated by people who have freely chosen good over evil. God wanted there to be a place of pure good, our free choice is the only way to acheive that goal

 

[Grandliseur]

The idea that the afterlife is split into these two distinct good and bad realms to me doesn't make sense.

By the Bible it is possible to demonstrate that death of the righteous, the unrighteous, and the wicked - all return to non-existence. The two realms you speak of only occur in church dogma, or in pagan religions. The Vikings had hell and Valhalla, and what not. Even Buddhism seems to have a hell, or several levels of it.

The Bible contains promises for the righteous about being resurrected into Paradise, a Paradise that is promised to be established on earth, all earth.

 

[dfnj]

There can be no such thing as good and evil without choice, and so there can be no such thing as a place of pure good, unless populated by people who have freely chosen good over evil. God wanted there to be a place of pure good, our free choice is the only way to acheive that goal

If you believe in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics then there exists an infinite number of alternate space-time dimensions where each choice you can make is played out to its completion. So over the entire multi-verse you have free choice. But within a single space-time dimension you have hard determinism.

From God's perspective, over the entire multi-verse, every possible version of who you are is manifested from saint to demon. So in this larger sense, since every possible choice you can make is realized, then maybe no one is entirely good or evil for all eternity.

Who really knows what God wants. I suspected what makes each of us enthusiastic is a heuristic of choice given to us by God. But people who don't live by the golden rule, who are essentially psychotic, have no empathy for other people live their lives with no concern over the consequences of their behaviors. The problem of good and evil is not straight forward. All objective judgments of what is absolute truth with regards to good and evil are made by people making subjective judgments that are based on relative morality. All objectivity is decided by subjectivity. What is "good" science and what is "junk" science is not determined by objective measures. Same is true with morality. It's never easy to live with morals.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Imo, heaven and hell are just states of being. Heaven is being at peace with God and accepting His love and mercy, as well as seeing all others as your equals in compassion (but maybe at different levels of awareness but striving to help them out of empathy). Hell is the opposite of that. It's short-sightedness, self-loathing and being caught up in the traps that hold you down. That's a summery of how I see it, anyway.