Here is a good reason why people are offended by your faith

[Spiderman]

Today I had someone on RF make it clear to me that if I don't convert to Islam I will go to hell ,(and produced the Quaranic verse to prove it.) This isn't just a Muslim thing. I see this all the time among Christians. It's disgusting!

DO YOU REALIZE HOW OFFENSIVE THAT IS??

People have loved ones that died outside your religion. If someone's Mother (who they loved dearly) lived a good, humble, God-fearing life, and was honest, followed the golden rule, and charitable to others, and then died outside of your religion, she goes to hell! Wouldn't you be offended if someone made such a statement that would indicate your mother is in hell forever because she didn't believe what they do.

Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds? You are telling them that those they cherish who die outside of your faith are going to be joyless, miserable, in agony FOREVER, because they don't adhere to your system of beliefs. How can you expect a decent person to not strongly resent such a belief?

Even if your faith is the truth, a person can be mistaken and reject it without realizing they are rejecting the truth. Should a person go to Hell for a crime they didn't know they were guilty of committing??

If that is the kind of faith you belong to, I'm really amazed you can't see why so many people hate it.

 

[Kirran]

Well I think everyone is reincarnated and continues learning through their experiences until they attain true realisation of God, so people who are in those kinds of forms of their faiths are learning from the experience too.

 

[Spiderman]

Well I think everyone is reincarnated and continues learning through their experiences until they attain true realisation of God, so people who are in those kinds of forms of their faiths are learning from the experience too.

That is what Allan Kardec believes. Have you ever read "The Spirit's book"...it's very good...it is the first piece of literature that got me to believe in reincarnation.

 

[Kirran]

That is what Allan Kardec believes. Have you ever read "The Spirit's book"...it's very good...it is the first piece of literature that got me to believe in reincarnation.

I'm a little wary of the guy, given the rather abusive nature of many Kardecist groups!

But I think it is a widespread understanding, it comes up in many different times and places.

 

[EmperorSwordMan]

That's one of the things I can't understand about the Abrahamic religions. In those religions, good men can burn for eternity for pointless crimes, and evil cruel men can enter a eternity of paradise if they play the right cards. No offense to any Christians or Muslims out there, but I find this to be just awful and stupid.

 

[psychoslice]

Yes its complete arrogance, their not even sure if their right or wrong, that is why they call it faith, but again the arrogant one will say he knows he is right when in fact he knows nothing. They use their scripture as a weapon, throwing it at anyone who doesn't agree with them, they are in my view very much afraid and projecting their fear onto others makes them feel superior.

 

[Spiderman]

I'm a little wary of the guy, given the rather abusive nature of many Kardecist groups!

When you say abusive nature, do you mean like Mediums performing hoaxes for money, or other types of abuses as well?

 

[Kirran]

When you say abusive nature, do you mean like Mediums performing hoaxes for money, or other types of abuses as well?

I have heard that within the communities of followers relationships are often quite unhealthy. I imagine @LuisDantas could tell you more, if he's feeling like it.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm a little wary of the guy, given the rather abusive nature of many Kardecist groups!

I can totally relate, having been raised by such a couple.

I have heard that within the communities of followers relationships are often quite unhealthy. I imagine @LuisDantas could tell you more, if he's feeling like it.

I so can!

But first, may I invite all of you to stop by this thread of mine? The OP addresses some of this.

The roles of fear and loneliness

As you probably know, @PopeADope , I happen to have arisen at the place on Earth where Kardecism has been most succesful of all.

As an illustration, we have an Association of Spiritist Magistrates operating openly. Kardecist Spiritism is easily the third if not the second better-known belief here, right after Catholicism and Protestantism. Pretty much every Brazilian knows the basic ideas of that doctrine.

At its root it is an exceedingly simple, if ambitious, doctrine.

• People are in truth meat envelopes for their immortal, reincarnating souls.
• Our circunstances are dictated mainly by the degree of spiritual evolution of those souls, right down to which planet we are born into.
• While there is a roughly Abrahamic God, most any other supernatural claim is ultimately a manifestation of spirits in one form or another.
• Spiritism perceives itself as Christian, even Catholic, but it reinterprets Jesus as a particularly elevated spirit.
• All people are essentially destined to ever raise in spiritual evolution through repeated reincarnations, albeit at various rates of evolution, subject to virtual stagnations, and often at the expense of a lot of suffering.
• Mediunity is real and mostly consists of communication with the spirits of people between incarnations.

In practice, it is simpler still:

• All of human suffering is a result of a lack of sufficient spiritual evolution.
• Unfortunate circunstances are therefore automatically deserved, because the people affected need the opportunity to learn and evolve more.
• On the other hand, so are fortunate circunstances, because the people involved have earned it through their previous history.
• However, it is possible and frequent for evolved spirits to choose to manifest in unfortunate circunstances, both to further their own evolution and to lend a hand to those less fortunate in learning their own steps.

All too often it devolves into an even simpler permutation:

• I am free to like or dislke people arbitrarily and decide that I am justified either way, because it is always possible to decide after the fact that the respective degrees of spiritual evolution make it fair and even necessary for those relations to happen.
• I am the reincarnation of someone truly meaningful and awesome. Never mind that there is no evidence of such awesomeness in me; that is doubtlessly the result of some combination of my utterly impressive modesty manifesting into love for the opportunity to teach and extend my fraternity among the riffraff or just plain sabotage from the bad energies of those poor, misguided people who insist on disturbing my deserved awesomeness.
• Of course many people do not understand how protagonistic I am. I will just take refuge in my disdain and pride and tell them that it is in truth an expression of my "charity". I may easily convince myself that I mean it, too.
• So, in essence, everyone, even destiny itself, owes me. In my infinite generosity, I forgive them for not always realizing that.
• Hipocrisy is something that other people have. Never me. I am far too evolved for that. But all those less evolved people around me sure are a burden.

I guess it is fair to say that I don't think much of Spiritism. I have been known to mention it when people think I am being too tough on Christianity.

It does not help that it is so eager to appropriate and misrepresent other, far more healthy beliefs that it makes the Bahai look careful and considerate in that regard by comparison.

The damage that they have caused on the ability of Brazilians to learn and understand Hinduism alone...

 

[Spiderman]

I can totally relate, having been raised by such a couple.

Spiritists?

 

[LuisDantas]

Spiritists?

Yes. Kardecists. Even the people from the centers they frequented were impressed by their insistence on pushing me towards those centers.

My female progenitor actually convinced herself (or pretended passionately to) that I had at some point manifested an interest in Kardecism. To say that it is a lie does not begin to tell the history, but then again facts were never enough to demove her certainty.

Ironically enough, her insistence was so fierce and so oblivious to reality that she ended up directing me towards an occultist group that actually opposed Spiritism somewhat less than I do. Out of sheer refusal to realize what she was doing.

To this day I am not sure whether she believed her own lies. We all lost so much due to her stubborness. Yet there is little reason to suspect that she had any choice. She was, quite frankly, of very weak character. One of the weakest I ever met.

It was scary to be raised by those two. I am glad I no longer have to meet them at all. I hope they are glad as well, because they earned no better.

 

[Spiderman]

I can totally relate, having been raised by such a couple.



I so can!

But first, may I invite all of you to stop by this thread of mine? The OP addresses some of this.

The roles of fear and loneliness

As you probably know, @PopeADope , I happen to have arisen at the place on Earth where Kardecism has been most succesful of all.

As an illustration, we have an Association of Spiritist Magistrates operating openly. Kardecist Spiritism is easily the third if not the second better-known belief here, right after Catholicism and Protestantism. Pretty much every Brazilian knows the basic ideas of that doctrine.

At its root it is an exceedingly simple, if ambitious, doctrine.

• People are in truth meat envelopes for their immortal, reincarnating souls.
• Our circunstances are dictated mainly by the degree of spiritual evolution of those souls, right down to which planet we are born into.
• While there is a roughly Abrahamic God, most any other supernatural claim is ultimately a manifestation of spirits in one form or another.
• Spiritism perceives itself as Christian, even Catholic, but it reinterprets Jesus as a particularly elevated spirit.
• All people are essentially destined to ever raise in spiritual evolution through repeated reincarnations, albeit at various rates of evolution, subject to virtual stagnations, and often at the expense of a lot of suffering.
• Mediunity is real and mostly consists of communication with the spirits of people between incarnations.

In practice, it is simpler still:

• All of human suffering is a result of a lack of sufficient spiritual evolution.
• Unfortunate circunstances are therefore automatically deserved, because the people affected need the opportunity to learn and evolve more.
• On the other hand, so are fortunate circunstances, because the people involved have earned it through their previous history.
• However, it is possible and frequent for evolved spirits to choose to manifest in unfortunate circunstances, both to further their own evolution and to lend a hand to those less fortunate in learning their own steps.

All too often it devolves into an even simpler permutation:

• I am free to like or dislke people arbitrarily and decide that I am justified either way, because it is always possible to decide after the fact that the respective degrees of spiritual evolution make it fair and even necessary for those relations to happen.
• I am the reincarnation of someone truly meaningful and awesome. Never mind that there is no evidence of such awesomeness in me; that is doubtlessly the result of some combination of my utterly impressive modesty manifesting into love for the opportunity to teach and extend my fraternity among the riffraff or just plain sabotage from the bad energies of those poor, misguided people who insist on disturbing my deserved awesomeness.
• Of course many people do not understand how protagonistic I am. I will just take refuge in my disdain and pride and tell them that it is in truth an expression of my "charity". I may easily convince myself that I mean it, too.
• So, in essence, everyone, even destiny itself, owes me. In my infinite generosity, I forgive them for not always realizing that.
• Hipocrisy is something that other people have. Never me. I am far too evolved for that. But all those less evolved people around me sure are a burden.

I guess it is fair to say that I don't think much of Spiritism. I have been known to mention it when people think I am being too tough on Christianity.

It does not help that it is so eager to appropriate and misrepresent other, far more healthy beliefs that it makes the Bahai look careful and considerate in that regard by comparison.

The damage that they have caused on the ability of Brazilians to learn and understand Hinduism alone...

I missed most of that post first time I read it. Very good information. I don't think less of kardec or his book, but it sounds like his philosophies are being abused. In his book it says charity is the greatest virtue and selfishness is the greatest sign of imperfection. It doesn't sound like his followers are putting that into practice well.

 

[FearGod]

Today I had someone on RF make it clear to me that if I don't convert to Islam I will go to hell ,(and produced the Quaranic verse to prove it.) This isn't just a Muslim thing. I see this all the time among Christians. It's disgusting!

DO YOU REALIZE HOW OFFENSIVE THAT IS??

People have loved ones that died outside your religion. If someone's Mother (who they loved dearly) lived a good, humble, God-fearing life, and was honest, followed the golden rule, and charitable to others, and then died outside of your religion, she goes to hell! Wouldn't you be offended if someone made such a statement that would indicate your mother is in hell forever because she didn't believe what they do.

Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds? You are telling them that those they cherish who die outside of your faith are going to be joyless, miserable, in agony FOREVER, because they don't adhere to your system of beliefs. How can you expect a decent person to not strongly resent such a belief?

Even if your faith is the truth, a person can be mistaken and reject it without realizing they are rejecting the truth. Should a person go to Hell for a crime they didn't know they were guilty of committing??

If that is the kind of faith you belong to, I'm really amazed you can't see why so many people hate it.

May ask what is the quranic verse that he produced to you?

 

[LuisDantas]

I missed most of that post first time I read it. Very good information. I don't think less of kardec or his book, but it sounds like his philosophies are being abused. In his book it says charity is the greatest virtue and selfishness is the greatest sign of imperfection. It doesn't sound like his followers are putting that into practice well.

We will have to agree to disagree. I have read a lot of his codification.

 

[12jtartar]

Today I had someone on RF make it clear to me that if I don't convert to Islam I will go to hell ,(and produced the Quaranic verse to prove it.) This isn't just a Muslim thing. I see this all the time among Christians. It's disgusting!

DO YOU REALIZE HOW OFFENSIVE THAT IS??

People have loved ones that died outside your religion. If someone's Mother (who they loved dearly) lived a good, humble, God-fearing life, and was honest, followed the golden rule, and charitable to others, and then died outside of your religion, she goes to hell! Wouldn't you be offended if someone made such a statement that would indicate your mother is in hell forever because she didn't believe what they do.

Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds? You are telling them that those they cherish who die outside of your faith are going to be joyless, miserable, in agony FOREVER, because they don't adhere to your system of beliefs. How can you expect a decent person to not strongly resent such a belief?

Even if your faith is the truth, a person can be mistaken and reject it without realizing they are rejecting the truth. Should a person go to Hell for a crime they didn't know they were guilty of committing??

If that is the kind of faith you belong to, I'm really amazed you can't see why so many people hate it.

PopADope,
You are looking at the opportunity to live as something that should be kept a secret. The whole reason for Christianity is to learn God's word and then pass this knowledge on to others, 2 Timothy 2:2-5.
You have a completely wrong about people who have died. By far most people who died before Jesus comes again, will be resurrected back to earth, which will be turned into a paradise, with all living having the opportunity to live forever, as long as they obey the new instructions we will receive, as the other scroll, mentioned at Revelation 20:12. No one brought back from death will be punished for what they did before their resurrection, because Jesus died for those sins. When a person dies he pays the ultimate price for his sins, so he has been absolved from sin, Romans 6:23, 7,2Corinthians 5:14,15, Hebrews 2:9.
Also you have a wrong idea of what death is. At death there is no feeling, no knowledge, or awareness of anything, because a dead person returns to the dust, Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 3:18-20, 9:5,6,10.
The term Hell, which is translated from the Greek word Hades, means a place of the dead, and was never thought of as a place of punishment by the Jews. If it was a place of punishment, Jesus would NOT have gone there for parts of three days, Jesus never sinned!!!
Many people who lived in the past never knew about the true God, or about Jesus Christ. When these people are resurrected, they will learn about them and have the opportunity to live forever. Everyone will get one chance to learn and live, before Jesus comes again. The problem is; all people who are live will be judged by what they are doing when Jesus comes, 2Thessalonians 1:6-10, Matthew 25:31-46. All of us are now living in the period just before Jesus returns. The conditions on earth today make up a composite sign, that was the sign of the last days of this system, and the return of Jesus, for judgement, Acts 17:30,31. We all have very little time to find the ONE true Faith spoken of in the Bible, Ephesians 4:3-6. Agape!!!

 

[Spiderman]

May ask what is the quranic verse that he produced to you?

آل عمران
وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الْإِسْلَامِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ
And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. (85)

 

[Spiderman]

We will have to agree to disagree. I have read a lot of his codification.

I respect your opinion because you clearly know more about spiritism than I do as a result of your upbringing.

 

[FearGod]

آل عمران
وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الْإِسْلَامِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ
And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. (85)

Dose loser means hell fire? and may I ask you if you believe that God exists or not?

 

[Spiderman]

Dose loser means hell fire? and may I ask you if you believe that God exists or not?

Yes I believe in God. Loser doesn't mean hellfire but the person was letting me know that I wouldn't get to heaven if I didn't convert to Islam.

 

[FearGod]

Yes I believe in God. Loser doesn't mean hellfire but the person was letting me know that I wouldn't get to heaven if I didn't convert to Islam.

No one have the right to judge who goes to heaven and who won't.

That being said, do you think we have much choices in this earthly life, for example
do I have a choice to be the son of a king, or do I have a choice not to be killed
by an accident, a disease ...etc