Heterosexual sins, adultery, fornication, etc.

[Shadow Wolf]

Western psychology methods in the past didn't help with regards to shifting people away from homosexuality or bisexuality. This is partial agreement so up to you what you wish to tell yourself with that.

There's no reason to shift then away from it so of course psychology doesn't do that anymore.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Western psychology methods in the past didn't help with regards to shifting people away from homosexuality or bisexuality. This is partial agreement so up to you what you wish to tell yourself with that.

There is no reason to "shift away from" it, unless your religion tells you its inherently wrong, which imo, is the wrong position. And the harmful position.

 

[Link]

There's no reason to shift then away from it so of course psychology doesn't do that anymore.

This is another subject. If there is good reasons or not, is different, then if we are born that way discussion I am having.

 

[Link]

There is no reason to "shift away from" it, unless your religion tells you its inherently wrong, which imo, is the wrong position. And the harmful position.

And what if the religion also provides insights and proofs as to why it's wrong and evil? What then? Ignore everything it says?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This is another subject. If there is good reasons or not, is different, then if we are born that way discussion I am having.

There are no good reasons for attempting to make gays and bis into hets.
We are born as we are.

 

[SkepticThinker]

And what if the religion also provides insights and proofs as to why it's wrong and evil? What then? Ignore everything it says?

If the religious has such insights, it would be reflected in the data. It isn't.

What "proofs" do you think religions have provided that contradicts what the science says?

 

[Link]

If the religious has such insights, it would be reflected in the data. It isn't.

What "proofs" do you think religions have provided that contradicts what the science says?

Maybe the data confirms it. How would you know? You are in your western bubble of intellectuals, you don't think beyond that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Maybe the data confirms it. How would you know? You are in your western bubble of intellectuals, you don't think beyond that.

The data confirms what I've said. If you have "information" that is contradictory to that, how on earth would that confirm it?

 

[BrightShadow]

Is this like rock n roll bands when I was a kid hiding pro Satan mesaages and telling us to kill ourselves in their music to only be discovered when you play the record backwards?

It is normal. Hating it because of an ancient book that is oblivious to how unsanitary blood is what is not normal.

Except with cigarettes we have mountain ranges of studies and evidence to show why it's bad.

I would say your priorities are out of whack. Cheating spouses is a bigger issue than homosexuality. Gun violence is a bigger issue. Homelessness and poverty are bigger issues. Inadequate access to healthcare is a bigger issue.
Just about everything is a bigger issus because homosexuality is a non-issue.

I can assure you, you've smelt the pool with 500 pees and didn't mind, and probably thought that's how they're supposed to smell.

Nope.

I don't hurt anyone driving off road, and I've seen some pretty cool things doing that. And why shouldn't I enjoy doing so? I am a very highly experienced driver, I've drove many types of vehicles over many road conditions, amd I can handle a car very well and keep emergency supplies in my car. So, off roading where there is no cell phone coverage and just desert and rough road? Why not? It's not my fault if someone under prepared and inexperienced attempts such a thing and follows me in.

Why should I do for a society that doesn't respect me? I left that one and now live where I am respected.

Your contemptuous writing style is a clear indication of many things but it also shows that you believe Homosexuals are born that way. While I agree with that to a certain degree - I also think - there are multiple factors in play why a person become hetero or gay. I agree that some gay people acquire their so-called inclination from their earliest days but others develop it through their earliest fond experience (a particular first fond memory). Many other preferences develop during puberty - including hetero tendencies. In other words - everything begins from pretty much clean slate. But God (if you believe in one) did not make anyone gay! I agree many would say - they don't have any instigating memory and they are convinced that they are just born that way. However before cheerleading for them (and maybe for yourself) - it may be a good idea to try and find correct answers to the following questions.
Do you believe in God?
Do you believe we have a soul?
If so, then when was our soul created? Was it when we were in our mother's womb or was it prior to that?
Are there more souls waiting to come to this world?
Why we are sent here and why in our physical form and not in our soul form?
What did we do wrong that God decided to send us here without his direct presence?
How many soul or entity can our body (vessel) hold?
Who is devil? Why God gave him whatever power or authority he has?
What are the limitations of devil's powers?
Does any of God's powers apply to devil such as "omniscient", "omnipotent"?
Does devil even have power to be omnipresent? Can devil be at multiple places at the same time?
Does devil have any descendants?
If devil cannot be at two places at the same time - then how does he do his work? How does he manipulate billions of human beings at the same time?
Do we have a companion entity with us in our body during our entire life to feed us devil's influence? If not then how does devil get to us? Doesn't he have to be omnipresent otherwise?
If there is a companion entity that tags along with us and works through our conscious then can he/she have some sort of inclination towards a certain sex?
Are we required to keep such an entity at bay and dormant? or should we give in to his/her wimps?
What else such an entity do? And why we don't feel it's presence?
Why we didn't deserve to get clear cut answers from prophets regarding these questions?

There are more questions but if you cannot figure out correct answers to these questions - whatever conclusion you are going to arrive will be different than mine.
Without knowing the answers to the questions I provided - it is quite expected why you would believe Homosexuals are born that way and are not required to curtail their inclination.
As I already posted earlier - I believe homosexual inclination does come from somewhere for the gay population. I believe it primarily come from the possession. I am not talking about demonic possession that you see in movies! I am talking about a companion entity that is assigned to each one of us by the devil and we are so used to this entity that we don't even know the difference of living without it. It is the voice in our head. It needs to be tamed. Devil is not omnipresent. This is how he delivers. He cannot influence everyone separately and at the same time.
Of course if you don't even believe in a God then continue with your conclusion regarding this matter and continue cheerleading!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Your contemptuous writing style is a clear indication of many things but it also shows that you believe Homosexuals are born that way.

I'm curious what you think it indicates.
And I'd hope you would pick up on me holding the position homosexuals are born that way.

Who is devil? Why God gave him whatever power or authority he has?
What are the limitations of devil's powers?
Does any of God's powers apply to devil such as "omniscient", "omnipotent"?
Does devil even have power to be omnipresent? Can devil be at multiple places at the same time?
Does devil have any descendants?
If devil cannot be at two places at the same time - then how does he do his work? How does he manipulate billions of human beings at the same time?
Do we have a companion entity with us in our body during our entire life to feed us devil's influence? If not then how does devil get to us? Doesn't he have to be omnipresent otherwise?
If there is a companion entity that tags along with us and works through our conscious then can he/she have some sort of inclination towards a certain sex?

Why must there be a devil when many simply do not have a comparable concept?
I utterly reject such moral simplicity and that this dichotomy is found anywhere in nature, amd I do certainly believe gods are more capable than devolving into such a simple "good versus bad." It's much more complicated and nuanced than that.

What else such an entity do? And why we don't feel it's presence?
Why we didn't deserve to get clear cut answers from prophets regarding these questions?

This is not a problem for me as I do not ascribe to your religious beliefs. I left them behind many years ago.

There are more questions but if you cannot figure out correct answers to these questions

No one honestly knows the answer to them.

Of course if you don't even believe in a God then continue with your conclusion regarding this matter and continue cheerleading!

No, you just don't own a monopoly on who and what a god is or isn't.

While I agree with that to a certain degree - I also think - there are multiple factors in play why a person become hetero or gay. I agree that some gay people acquire their so-called inclination from their earliest days but others develop it through their earliest fond experience (a particular first fond memory). Many other preferences develop during puberty - including hetero tendencies. In other words - everything begins from pretty much clean slate. But God (if you believe in one) did not make anyone gay! I agree many would say - they don't have any instigating memory and they are convinced that they are just born that way.

Yes, there are many factors, and possibly some fluidity. But that's still how we're born.

Do you believe in God?
Do you believe we have a soul?

I don't believe in the god you do.
Our views on the soul are likely not congruent either.

If so, then when was our soul created? Was it when we were in our mother's womb or was it prior to that?
Are there more souls waiting to come to this world?
Why we are sent here and why in our physical form and not in our soul form?
What did we do wrong that God decided to send us here without his direct presence?
How many soul or entity can our body (vessel) hold?

No one can honestly say they know these answers.

Do we have a companion entity with us in our body during our entire life to feed us devil's influence? If not then how does devil get to us? Doesn't he have to be omnipresent otherwise?

No.

I am not talking about demonic possession that you see in movies! I am talking about a companion entity that is assigned to each one of us by the devil and we are so used to this entity that we don't even know the difference of living without it.

I don't accept that as having any truth to it either.

It is the voice in our head.

Unless you're having psychotic symptoms it's just our inner self talk. It's normal. Everyone does it. It even serves a lot of good, such as self motivation.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Your contemptuous writing style is a clear indication of many things but it also shows that you believe Homosexuals are born that way. While I agree with that to a certain degree - I also think - there are multiple factors in play why a person become hetero or gay. I agree that some gay people acquire their so-called inclination from their earliest days but others develop it through their earliest fond experience (a particular first fond memory). Many other preferences develop during puberty - including hetero tendencies. In other words - everything begins from pretty much clean slate. But God (if you believe in one) did not make anyone gay! I agree many would say - they don't have any instigating memory and they are convinced that they are just born that way. However before cheerleading for them (and maybe for yourself) - it may be a good idea to try and find correct answers to the following questions.
Do you believe in God?
Do you believe we have a soul?
If so, then when was our soul created? Was it when we were in our mother's womb or was it prior to that?
Are there more souls waiting to come to this world?
Why we are sent here and why in our physical form and not in our soul form?
What did we do wrong that God decided to send us here without his direct presence?
How many soul or entity can our body (vessel) hold?
Who is devil? Why God gave him whatever power or authority he has?
What are the limitations of devil's powers?
Does any of God's powers apply to devil such as "omniscient", "omnipotent"?
Does devil even have power to be omnipresent? Can devil be at multiple places at the same time?
Does devil have any descendants?
If devil cannot be at two places at the same time - then how does he do his work? How does he manipulate billions of human beings at the same time?
Do we have a companion entity with us in our body during our entire life to feed us devil's influence? If not then how does devil get to us? Doesn't he have to be omnipresent otherwise?
If there is a companion entity that tags along with us and works through our conscious then can he/she have some sort of inclination towards a certain sex?
Are we required to keep such an entity at bay and dormant? or should we give in to his/her wimps?
What else such an entity do? And why we don't feel it's presence?
Why we didn't deserve to get clear cut answers from prophets regarding these questions?

There are more questions but if you cannot figure out correct answers to these questions - whatever conclusion you are going to arrive will be different than mine.
Without knowing the answers to the questions I provided - it is quite expected why you would believe Homosexuals are born that way and are not required to curtail their inclination.
As I already posted earlier - I believe homosexual inclination does come from somewhere for the gay population. I believe it primarily come from the possession. I am not talking about demonic possession that you see in movies! I am talking about a companion entity that is assigned to each one of us by the devil and we are so used to this entity that we don't even know the difference of living without it. It is the voice in our head. It needs to be tamed. Devil is not omnipresent. This is how he delivers. He cannot influence everyone separately and at the same time.
Of course if you don't even believe in a God then continue with your conclusion regarding this matter and continue cheerleading!

Ah, I see the problem now. I'm using data, and you're claiming that souls and devils are responsible for human sexual orientation.
Well, all I can say is, my claims have an abundance of evidence backing them up, while yours are just claims from an old book that have never been demonstrated to be true.
I'm gonna have to go with the demonstrable science on this one.

 

[BrightShadow]

Ah, I see the problem now. I'm using data, and you're claiming that souls and devils are responsible for human sexual orientation.
Well, all I can say is, my claims have an abundance of evidence backing them up, while yours are just claims from an old book that have never been demonstrated to be true.
I'm gonna have to go with the demonstrable science on this one.

If you are born on a deserted island with no trees and your only food was fish then your data will only be about fishes.
You won't have any data regarding apples!
If fish makes sense to you then continue eating fish!
But on judgment day - many people will be running around trying to blame someone for their lack of data.
Maybe God will say - data was there in another part of the island - you didn't seek enough!

 

[SkepticThinker]

If you are born on a deserted island with no trees and your only food was fish then your data will only be about fishes.
You won't have any data regarding apples!
If fish makes sense to you then continue eating fish!
But on judgment day - many people will be running around trying to blame someone for their lack of data.
Maybe God will say - data was there in another part of the island - you didn't seek enough!

You have claims, but no data.
I'm going with the actual data that we have.

Most of this is just preaching, and more claims, not in evidence.

 

[BrightShadow]

You have claims, but no data.
I'm going with the actual data that we have.

Most of this is just preaching, and more claims, not in evidence.

The data you have is based on biased study.
No Psychiatrist have the courage to stand up against organized groups that support this cause.
No study can come out these days that would remotely go against the position of these groups.
If you can find an 35 years or so old text book on Phycology - then check where this and other topic like BDSM, fetishism etc. are. I am pretty sure it would be under the chapter "abnormal phycology". Systematically they have been taken out and into regular chapters because of backlash they received.
When it comes to certain organized groups - it is easy to be a cheerleader for them than an opposition!
Anyhow - no one is stopping you from following your data.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The data you have is based on biased study.

Nope. The data I have is based on scientific study, which is designed to remove human bias and error.

No Psychiatrist have the courage to stand up against organized groups that support this cause.

If they have data, they need to share it with the rest of the scientific community. Otherwise, they're just talking out of their backside.

What organized groups? The APA agrees with what I'm saying, because that's what the data indicates.

No study can come out these days that would remotely go against the position of these groups.

You don't appear to know how science works.

If you can find an 35 years or so old text book on Phycology - then check where this and other topic like BDSM, fetishism etc. are. I am pretty sure it would be under the chapter "abnormal phycology". Systematically they have been taken out and into regular chapters because of backlash they received.

Guess why it was changed? In fact, can you guess why the DSM is routinely re-examined every few years and revised, if necessary? Why the DSM has been revised at least 5 times over the last two centuries? Can you guess?
THE DATA. New information. New studies. New analysis. New understandings. New knowledge. Or would you prefer our ideas remain stagnant and unchanging in light of new evidence? I certainly wouldn't.

Thanks for highlighting the importance of current science, though. That is very important.

I have no idea what you mean by "regular chapters."

When it comes to certain organized groups - it is easy to be a cheerleader for them than an opposition!
Anyhow - no one is stopping you from following your data.

Who are these nefarious groups you keep alluding to?

I guess you wrote all of this to deflect away from the obvious fact that you don't seem to have any evidence backing up your claims about devils and souls being responsible for human sexual orientation? Are these devils also responsible for the homosexuality we see in the rest of the animal kingdom? I mean, if as you say, God didn't invent homosexuality, those animals had to get it from somewhere, I guess? Is that your explanation for it?

 

[BrightShadow]

Nope. The data I have is based on scientific study, which is designed to remove human bias and error.


If they have data, they need to share it with the rest of the scientific community. Otherwise, they're just talking out of their backside.

What organized groups? The APA agrees with what I'm saying, because that's what the data indicates.


You don't appear to know how science works.


Guess why it was changed? In fact, can you guess why the DSM is routinely re-examined every few years and revised, if necessary? Why the DSM has been revised at least 5 times over the last two centuries? Can you guess?
THE DATA. New information. New studies. New analysis. New understandings. New knowledge. Or would you prefer our ideas remain stagnant and unchanging in light of new evidence? I certainly wouldn't.

Thanks for highlighting the importance of current science, though. That is very important.

I have no idea what you mean by "regular chapters."


Who are these nefarious groups you keep alluding to?

I guess you wrote all of this to deflect away from the obvious fact that you don't seem to have any evidence backing up your claims about devils and souls being responsible for human sexual orientation? Are these devils also responsible for the homosexuality we see in the rest of the animal kingdom? I mean, if as you say, God didn't invent homosexuality, those animals had to get it from somewhere, I guess? Is that your explanation for it?

If someone asks you to provide data to show that you are a healthy person. You will run to your doctor and the doctor will do some basic tests and observation and give you a report.
Now ask someone to prove you are not a healthy person. What data can he provide to show you are emotionally influenced? Especially if you insist you are okay?
Information regarding possible cause of "inclination" is out there scattered among religions. I just indicated you about it. You can do your own research. You won't consider religious teaching as data anyway! So, why bother?
The religious people who do come across situations where they can see proof regarding what I said - do not keep data to be analyzed by skeptics.
No scientist has yet able to analyze DNA and show we are born with certain inclination. All they can do is - come to a conclusion that makes sense to them. They cannot bring religion into their equation and come to a different conclusion because it would be controversial.
Even for a condition like "bipolar" - Psychiatrists only have data regarding chemical changes in the body. They give you medicine to counter that. They don't have data to show exact cause or how to heal it for good. They can only help you suppress it. If you must suppress your condition to be functionable - why no research for people who struggles and want to be hetero. There are people who don't want to be gay. Why tell them it is natural. Live with it. Have fun!
Tell that to a person with bipolar disorder. Live with it - it is natural! You are born with it!
If enough people participate in a test then you will have your data. Wait for it!

 

[SkepticThinker]

If someone asks you to provide data to show that you are a healthy person. You will run to your doctor and the doctor will do some basic tests and observation and give you a report.
Now ask someone to prove you are not a healthy person. What data can he provide to show you are emotionally influenced? Especially if you insist you are okay?

To demonstrate I am not a healthy person, I could show some test results. I could show that I am overweight. I could show that I don't eat a healthy diet. I could show a lot of things.
To demonstrate I am not a psychologically healthy person? I could show you what happens to me when I have a panic attack. You could observe me having a major depressive episode or a manic episode. There are many ways to demonstrate such things.

You seem to be assuming that gay people aren't physically or emotionally healthy, just by virtue of being gay? Is that it?

Information regarding possible cause of "inclination" is out there scattered among religions. I just indicated you about it. You can do your own research. You won't consider religious teaching as data anyway! So, why bother?

Isn't this just a fancy way of saying you don't have any evidence?

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

The religious people who do come across situations where they can see proof regarding what I said - do not keep data to be analyzed by skeptics.

Proof of what? That gay people are physically or psychologically unhealthy, just because they're gay?

No scientist has yet able to analyze DNA and show we are born with certain inclination. All they can do is - come to a conclusion that makes sense to them. They cannot bring religion into their equation and come to a different conclusion because it would be controversial.
Even for a condition like "bipolar" - Psychiatrists only have data regarding chemical changes in the body. They give you medicine to counter that. They don't have data to show exact cause or how to heal it for good. They can only help you suppress it. If you must suppress your condition to be functionable - why no research for people who struggles and want to be hetero. There are people who don't want to be gay. Why tell them it is natural. Live with it. Have fun!

Actually, when diagnosing mental disorders, there are chemical changes in the brain as well as behaviours that indicate the person is having a manic episode, or a depressive episode, for instance.

Why tell them it's natural to be gay? Because it is. Why lie about it? The unnatural thing would be to pretend that you're something you're not.

Tell that to a person with bipolar disorder. Live with it - it is natural! You are born with it!
If enough people participate in a test then you will have your data. Wait for it!

I don't want to have panic disorder, but I do. Instead of pretending that I don't, I have to deal with it as best I can.

 

[Viker]

The data you have is based on biased study.
No Psychiatrist have the courage to stand up against organized groups that support this cause.
No study can come out these days that would remotely go against the position of these groups.
If you can find an 35 years or so old text book on Phycology - then check where this and other topic like BDSM, fetishism etc. are. I am pretty sure it would be under the chapter "abnormal phycology". Systematically they have been taken out and into regular chapters because of backlash they received.
When it comes to certain organized groups - it is easy to be a cheerleader for them than an opposition!
Anyhow - no one is stopping you from following your data.

Clearly, you would never accept data contradicting your view anyway. Even when it be provided already, over and over.

 

[BrightShadow]

Clearly, you would never accept data contradicting your view anyway. Even when it be provided already, over and over.

Like I said earlier...
It is easier to show with data that nothing is wrong with you. But to show something is wrong - you need a lot more information regarding the root cause and lot of cooperation from you. It is a lot harder to do that with limited knowledge that the Psychiatrists have at their disposal. Scientists know very little about brain, DNA. They also know very little about religion because information is scattered. It is not in one religion. So, the data they are providing you - is not reliable IMHO. LGBT rights activists will never let a Psychiatrist sleep in peace if he ever does any research against their cause. They will be ruined via social media.
So, where are you expecting data to come from?

If you are born on a deserted part of an island with no trees and your only food was fish then your data will only be about fishes.
You won't have any data regarding apples, oranges, grapes. You won't even know how any fruit tastes like.
If fish makes sense to you then continue eating fish!
I sincerely believe - on judgment day - many people will be running around trying to blame someone for their lack of data.
Maybe God will say - data was there in another part of the island - you didn't seek enough!
Ignorance of the law is not a defense! You cannot tell a cop who pulled you over for speeding that you didn't know it was wrong to speed! You cannot say "data" shows in Europe you could drive faster.
Ignorance regarding information available via different religious doctrine - is not a defense.
By the way have you ever heard Cherokee story of the battle of two wolves inside of us? It is an interesting proverb!

 

[Viker]

By the way have you ever heard Cherokee story of the battle of two wolves inside of us? It is an interesting proverb!

I've also heard of the "two spirit" concept of many North American indigenous peoples.

Another religion's laws, codes, precepts and tenets are irrelevant to me unless I choose so otherwise.

It's an irony. I'm allegedly supposed to be still subject to or under another god's or religion's laws and yet they claim they're not subject to my own. Interesting dilemma, no?

Nonsense. Follow the laws of Cornijer or else!