Heterosexual sins, adultery, fornication, etc.

[BrightShadow]

I see from your post that you are an Atheist. So, in that case why are you even bothered for any explanation and proof? I told you numerous times - if you don't even believe in God then nothing (I say) will make any sense to you. Non-belief position of an Atheist is the weakest IMO. They are satisfied with a notion that - it is unknowable whether a God exists without a definite proof - therefore their position is - not to believe in a God. How convenient!
What if there is a valid reason why God decided to not reveal himself for the time being? Is there any possibility of that? Just because there is no direct evidence - shouldn't automatically give an Atheist a greenlight to not believe. But they choose to do so.
I have already given my two cents here. I am basically done with this particular thread. You either get it or you don't. I will try to respond to your last post.

The devil has nothing to do with psychiatric conditions.

There is cause and then there is effect! There could be multiple "causes" behind an effect! You cannot relate to one cause and then come to the conclusion that that particular "cause" is the reason for the "effect" and nothing else is.
For example - a person could be slightly drunk, take a Benadryl and drive in the rain and his brake pads could be a bit deteriorated. If he gets into an accident then you may not see the real reason the accident took place without thorough investigation. The investigation report could still be inconclusive . Maybe it happened because of the weather or because he was slightly intoxicated or maybe the meds made him drowsy or maybe it was due to his bad breaks or maybe it was the other driver's fault. A police officer on the scene might just detect one reason and finish his investigation but the officer's conclusion may not the actual reason behind the accident. Maybe two or more reasons played a part in the accident!
Similarly there could be multiple reasons behind everything. You cannot just stick to one reason and disregard all other possible reasons because you don't have any knowledge about the other reasons. You are not even considering the other reasons as a possibility!
Do psychiatric know why a shift in the balance of chemicals in the brain really happens? All they know is that - there is a shift in the balance of chemicals and they give medicine to counter that and the patients feels better and gets more functionable. The reason that they think is why the chemical changes happens may not be the actual reason. There are many reasons a shift in the balance can occur. Why an entity is not capable to cause that? A snake bite causes chemical change in the body, a spider bite can cause chemical change. Like I said - we have a long way to go - because wrong people are running the experiments. However, do a quick search in google and you will see studies regarding these matter has been incorporated in DSM4, V63.89.
We are going at a very slow pace but we will get there!

I asked you about Matthew [4:1-12] especially the first verse where it says Jesus was led by the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. Led by whom? Now I see Christianity is not your religion. I am not a Christian either! Anyhow I was just trying to make a point. But if you don't believe in any religion then it is understandable - these explanation is not for you. You cannot understand chapter 8 0r 10 before chapter 1.

Nobody has even demonstrated that devils exist in the first place.
You're just asserting things, not in evidence.

Anyhow, You have a tendency to make blanket statements without grasping what I wrote. I didn't say devil is directly behind anything. His agents are working for him. I said we have an entity (not devil) attached to us and trying to deceive us into doing the wrong things. We all have a different one. These entities have inclinations too! They can influence in different way.
You asked why there is not any proof of this... well if they show themselves to you then it will be counter productive for the entity to continue it's job. Wouldn't it? Faith will kick in and everyone of us will be able to defeat it. Even you can defeat it! So, there is good reason for them to conceal themselves. However, every now and then for whatever reason (arrogance or deranged) some of them slip up.
I believe we all have one - it attaches with us at a very early stage of our life and tags along. Babies can see them! We are so used to it that we don't know the difference how we would feel if we were not in it's presence. People with very high convictions can keep it at bay. We all are born with basic moral principles. If you stay true to that and lead a life consistent with your (soul's) true inner voice - then this entity gets weaker and weaker! If you seek God's directives via different religious doctrines and adhere to it -then it gets even weaker!
But if you don't even acknowledge the possibility that it is there - you give more power to it! IMO

Whatever stories you ever hear regarding human's interactions with supernatural beings - it is never with a human soul IMO. Human souls do not stick around after death. Human souls only come once to this world! All the stories you hear regarding possession are not about human souls. All the stories about people claiming to be reincarnated are not about human soul coming a second time. It is the memory of these entities remembering their previous hosts. Anyone who uses Ouija board - are not talking with human souls. Anyone doing any rituals regarding spiritual world - are not interacting with human souls!

This is why the God I believe in - forbad all those rituals and practices! We have to stay away and keep him/her at bay.

I stand by my position that gay inclination is a result of the influence. Just like heteros are influenced into other forbidden things. Whatever way this companion entity can deviate you - is a job well done for him/her!
I am confident our communication is fruitless. You can continue believing in whatever floats your boat and whatever make sense to you. I just told you what I believe!
Continue waiting for your proof!

 

[BrightShadow]

Well, a late-comer has arrived! However, I am done with this thread! You pointing out things and asking questions that I already answered. Anyhow, you are not going to understand anything via selective reading.
However I will try to quickly address some of your concerns.

How do you explain that you can’t tell Jesus from Mary since they both wore something like nightgowns?

How do you know who wore what 2000 years ago? You are a post Christian - which is good that you no longer believe in Jesus as God but then it seems you have gone on the path of polytheism. So, in my opinion - it is like jumping from frying pan into fire!

The DSM goes into absurd levels of detail in describing what constitutes a particular diagnosis. It’s not just whining on a couch for an hour.

It seems like they are incorporating the studies of supernatural and religious implications. Check out DSM4, V63.89. They have started to consider connections between religious and spiritual experiences and mental disorder. That is a start! But is a slow pace.

As a person with a degree in psychology, it’s offensive you think that the people in that field are as ignorant as your sources. The history of psychology, like all fields of study, have irrational moments, but eventually science grew to accept logic and data. Religion refuses.

Ha ha, It is funny. This field is so backward that it reminds me of the ancient times when the dentist would use a hammer and chisel. They had logic and data as well. Whatever data available at the time! You too have very little data available.
like I already pointed out ...

If you are born on a deserted part of an island with no trees and your only food was fish then your data will only be about fishes.
You won't have any data regarding apples, oranges, grapes. You won't even know how any fruit tastes like.
Similarly your data is what is available to you now. Some religions offer more but it is scattered and mixed with fabrications and information was given in a need to know basis. One needs to sort through what is available and make sense out of it. But over all - religions offer more if you know where to look!

The God of the Abrahamic religions encouraged intellectual poverty. That’s why you have to go to polytheism to find Gods of learning.

Maybe for those who are blind and enable to distinguish right from wrong, true from false and what is God inspired from what is devil influenced.

Yes, people are quick to call God’s creation unclean even though there is a story about that.

God didn't create homosexuality per se. It is counterproductive to God's plan. It is an inclination, an influence coming from a source. The source attaches at very early age, hence we (the human) feel like the we are born with it. IMO
By the way, for argument sake - lets say God created it - but why are we forgetting that God also forbad it? God created many unclean things.. Do you want me to name a few? So, where is your argument taking you? Are you trying to say everything on earth is clean?

Laws are changing all the time.

That was just an example.
God's directive is not changing (as far as I know). No new doctrines out there since a very long time! However, I agree anyone can be forgiven by God! It is his prerogative!

God has nothing to do with many topics. I’m a theist. I expect math to be taught in math, science in science, etc. Scripture offers little to nothing about most topics.

Then you don't know where to look. A 100 years or so in the future - people will look at your current data and will compare it to an antient dentist's hammer and a chisel. That dentist also thought he had the best tool for his time. He thought he was modern! No one had used a hammer before! He solved all dental problem with a hammer!
Anyhow, I have no intention to hang around in this thread any further.

 

[MonkeyFire]

The secret to faith is a duality between war and piety.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

How do you know who wore what 2000 years ago?

Archeology. Science isn’t that hard.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Ha ha, It is funny. This field is so backward that it reminds me of the ancient times when the dentist would use a hammer and chisel. They had logic and data as well. Whatever data available at the time! You too have very little data available.
like I already pointed out ...

People were doing surgery while biblical people were spritzing blood on walls. I would risk going to a pagan hospital sooner than I would trust anyone from the Bible.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If you are born on a deserted part of an island with no trees and your only food was fish then your data will only be about fishes.
You won't have any data regarding apples, oranges, grapes. You won't even know how any fruit tastes like.

So as a monotheist, you only study one point of data? You don’t know what the rest tastes like.

 

[Left Coast]

This thread has gone far afield from "heterosexual sins."

 

[SkepticThinker]

You don't believe in God. Here is a good argument that proves he exists: Objective Value and seeing argument! | Religious Forums

Start somewhere, and maybe I can show you in time how to detect demons, burn them, and defeat them.

I don't see how that argument proves the existence of God(s).

Do you have some actual evidence? Or just arguments?

 

[Link]

I don't see how that argument proves the existence of God(s).

Do you have some actual evidence? Or just arguments?

The evidence and proof is there. My words just point how to reflect over your self to see that you can't exist except in God's vision. So it's a proof, but I don't create reality through it, just remind.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I see from your post that you are an Atheist. So, in that case why are you even bothered for any explanation and proof? I told you numerous times - if you don't even believe in God then nothing (I say) will make any sense to you. Non-belief position of an Atheist is the weakest IMO. They are satisfied with a notion that - it is unknowable whether a God exists without a definite proof - therefore their position is - not to believe in a God. How convenient!
What if there is a valid reason why God decided to not reveal himself for the time being? Is there any possibility of that? Just because there is no direct evidence - shouldn't automatically give an Atheist a greenlight to not believe. But they choose to do so.
I have already given my two cents here. I am basically done with this particular thread. You either get it or you don't. I will try to respond to your last post.

I don't believe things which aren't in evidence. You may think that's nuts, but it's simply the logical position to take. And I'd argue that you take the same position on pretty much everything else, save for your religious beliefs. Do you believe in Bigfoot? Aliens? Why or why not?

And the better question is, why would anyone believe something without sufficient evidence?

If God doesn't want to reveal himself to me, then there isn't much I can do about it, right? He either doesn't want me to know he exists, or he doesn't care.

There is cause and then there is effect! There could be multiple "causes" behind an effect! You cannot relate to one cause and then come to the conclusion that that particular "cause" is the reason for the "effect" and nothing else is.
For example - a person could be slightly drunk, take a Benadryl and drive in the rain and his brake pads could be a bit deteriorated. If he gets into an accident then you may not see the real reason the accident took place without thorough investigation. The investigation report could still be inconclusive . Maybe it happened because of the weather or because he was slightly intoxicated or maybe the meds made him drowsy or maybe it was due to his bad breaks or maybe it was the other driver's fault. A police officer on the scene might just detect one reason and finish his investigation but the officer's conclusion may not the actual reason behind the accident. Maybe two or more reasons played a part in the accident!
Similarly there could be multiple reasons behind everything. You cannot just stick to one reason and disregard all other possible reasons because you don't have any knowledge about the other reasons. You are not even considering the other reasons as a possibility!

I'm gonna stick with reasons for which there is evidence backing them up. I've yet to see any evidence for the existence of any god(s), so I can't attribute anything to god(s).

Do psychiatric know why a shift in the balance of chemicals in the brain really happens?

It depends on what we're talking about.

All they know is that - there is a shift in the balance of chemicals and they give medicine to counter that and the patients feels better and gets more functionable. The reason that they think is why the chemical changes happens may not be the actual reason. There are many reasons a shift in the balance can occur. Why an entity is not capable to cause that? A snake bite causes chemical change in the body, a spider bite can cause chemical change. Like I said - we have a long way to go - because wrong people are running the experiments. However, do a quick search in google and you will see studies regarding these matter has been incorporated in DSM4, V63.89.
We are going at a very slow pace but we will get there!

If you want to say an "entity" is responsible for these changes in brain chemistry you'd have to first demonstrate that such an entity exists in the first place, and is capable of doing such things.
You don't just get to cram entities into the equation just because you want to. You have to demonstrate that they are necessary.

"Wrong people are running the experiments" ... ?? What does that mean?

I went to university to study psychology. I know where to look for proper studies. And I know that proper studies don't include entities that can't be demonstrated to exist.

By the way, we're up to the DSM-5-TR now.

I asked you about Matthew [4:1-12] especially the first verse where it says Jesus was led by the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. Led by whom? Now I see Christianity is not your religion. I am not a Christian either! Anyhow I was just trying to make a point. But if you don't believe in any religion then it is understandable - these explanation is not for you. You cannot understand chapter 8 0r 10 before chapter 1.

I can understand it just fine. I just don't believe it.

Anyhow, You have a tendency to make blanket statements without grasping what I wrote. I didn't say devil is directly behind anything. His agents are working for him.

You have a tendency to make claims without backing them up with any sort of evidence.

Now the devil has agents? Where can I find one of these agents to check for myself to know that they exist? Where and how can I verify the existence of the devil?

I said we have an entity (not devil) attached to us and trying to deceive us into doing the wrong things. We all have a different one. These entities have inclinations too! They can influence in different way.

Oh, okay. So where can I find this entity so I can examine it and verify its existence? I mean, this is just another claim.

You asked why there is not any proof of this... well if they show themselves to you then it will be counter productive for the entity to continue it's job. Wouldn't it? Faith will kick in and everyone of us will be able to defeat it. Even you can defeat it! So, there is good reason for them to conceal themselves. However, every now and then for whatever reason (arrogance or deranged) some of them slip up.

This is just a bizarre attempt to shirk your burden of proof. "Oh well, these entities are hiding and don't want to show themselves!"
Well, guess what? That's the same thing to me as them not existing because there is no way to verify anything about them.

So if some of them "slip up" then there is some way to verify their existence, right? I mean, how do you know they even exist?

I believe we all have one - it attaches with us at a very early stage of our life and tags along. Babies can see them! We are so used to it that we don't know the difference how we would feel if we were not in it's presence. People with very high convictions can keep it at bay. We all are born with basic moral principles. If you stay true to that and lead a life consistent with your (soul's) true inner voice - then this entity gets weaker and weaker! If you seek God's directives via different religious doctrines and adhere to it -then it gets even weaker!
But if you don't even acknowledge the possibility that it is there - you give more power to it! IMO

Just keep adding more unverifiable claims to the pile, I guess.

How and why do you know babies can see these entities? What basic moral principles are we born with and how do you know this? What is a soul and how do you know they exist? How do you know entities exist and can become weaker?

Whatever stories you ever hear regarding human's interactions with supernatural beings - it is never with a human soul IMO. Human souls do not stick around after death. Human souls only come once to this world! All the stories you hear regarding possession are not about human souls. All the stories about people claiming to be reincarnated are not about human soul coming a second time. It is the memory of these entities remembering their previous hosts. Anyone who uses Ouija board - are not talking with human souls. Anyone doing any rituals regarding spiritual world - are not interacting with human souls!
This is why the God I believe in - forbad all those rituals and practices! We have to stay away and keep him/her at bay.

More claims, no evidence.

I stand by my position that gay inclination is a result of the influence. Just like heteros are influenced into other forbidden things. Whatever way this companion entity can deviate you - is a job well done for him/her!

The influence of entities you can't demonstrate the existence of?

How about we stick with explanations that can be verified in reality?

I am confident our communication is fruitless. You can continue believing in whatever floats your boat and whatever make sense to you. I just told you what I believe!
Continue waiting for your proof!

Yes it is. Because you just keep making broad sweeping claims that you can't demonstrate the veracity of. I can make stuff up too. But I won't, because I want to believe in as many true things as possible and not believe in as many false things as possible. I don't want to just believe what makes me feel good.[/QUOTE]

 

[SkepticThinker]

The evidence and proof is there. My words just point how to reflect over your self to see that you can't exist except in God's vision. So it's a proof, but I don't create reality through it, just remind.

That's neither a proof nor a demonstration.

 

[Link]

That's neither a proof nor a demonstration.

But the thread I linked you is a reminder/proof on how to know God exists.

 

[BrightShadow]

And the better question is, why would anyone believe something without sufficient evidence?

If God doesn't want to reveal himself to me, then there isn't much I can do about it, right? He either doesn't want me to know he exists, or he doesn't care.

No proof of existence is not proof of non existence! Of course proof makes it easier to believe but what if we are in a dilemma where proof is not provided by our creator for a specific reason?
Even in our tangible world there are scenarios where you need to have faith in something or someone even when evidence is not clearly present. For example - you have to have faith in your significant other that he or she - is not cheating on you. The only time you seek proof when you see some definite sign of infidelity. You don't ask your significant other everyday if they are cheating on you. You learn to have faith that he/she is devoted to you.
So, bottom-line - we are governed by faith in many ways and in many things without the need of any proof! Lack of proof does work sometimes... doesn't it? Sometimes just faith is enough!
I can give you a specific scenario where our creator may have decided that we don't deserve any proof but yet required to believe. But it is not necessary because you believe proof is paramount.

 

[BrightShadow]

Archeology. Science isn’t that hard.

So, according to you - Archelogy suggest that during Jesus era - men and women wore the same clothes and no one could distinguish between them from their clothing? You could be talking to a woman who could be a man? Men were wearing make up and high heel shoes etc. Did I get that right?
That was my point. I don't think you got that! Btw, I didn't say all men either!

People were doing surgery while biblical people were spritzing blood on walls. I would risk going to a pagan hospital sooner than I would trust anyone from the Bible.

Christianity - in my opinion - is a religion where its fundamental concepts have been systematically changed or corrupted over the centuries since 325 A.D. Many misconceptions have sneaked in due to cultural diffusion, authoritarian influence for selfish gains by emperors and possible infusion of corrupted mythology by early writers and translators as well as via innocent mistranslation and misrepresentations due to bias opinions of the writers and translators. But yet information is out there in other religions and can easily be examined, compared and thus sorted out. So, just because you were fooled by one deviated fraction of a said religion - doesn't mean all biblical people were spritzing blood and all other religion than your new one - are bad.
You are condemning all for some! Isn't there a term for it - Christianophobia!
How are you any different than people who hate homosexuals'?

So as a monotheist, you only study one point of data? You don’t know what the rest tastes like.

I do not belong to any religion or it's sects. I do try and check all available religions. It is an ongoing process. I believe God sent messengers to almost all cultures but almost all messengers were tortured or killed by disbelievers! And as a result many of those messages did not survive in its entirety or at all. But by comparing whatever left with each other - it is possible to sort through them and find the truth. So, I do consider all points of data.

 

[Viker]

This thread has gone far afield from "heterosexual sins."

When I created it I had an idea that it could spiral into something else. I kinda figured it could become an anti/pro homosexual thread, which confirms my original thought. Heterosexual "sins", which permeate all facets of existence, are generally ignored. They're just to normal and popular for most to rail against.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No proof of existence is not proof of non existence! Of course proof makes it easier to believe but what if we are in a dilemma where proof is not provided by our creator for a specific reason?

I didn't ask for proof, but I did ask for evidence. I don't tend to believe in things for which I have no good evidence. In other words, if I'm not convinced of something, I can't believe it.
Pointing out that not having evidence isn't "proof" that the thing you claim exists doesn't exist is kind of a waste of time because it's not evidence that it does exist either. If you want to convince somebody that something exists, you'd need to demonstrate that with some evidence. You don't just get to say "well I don't have any evidence to show you but my claims are true anyway and you can't prove they aren't!" That's not how logic works.

737439, member: 72848"]
Even in our tangible world there are scenarios where you need to have faith in something or someone even when evidence is not clearly present. For example - you have to have faith in your significant other that he or she - is not cheating on you. The only time you seek proof when you see some definite sign of infidelity. You don't ask your significant other everyday if they are cheating on you. You learn to have faith that he/she is devoted to you.

That's not the same kind of faith, in my opinion. You seem to be conflating "faith" with "trust." There is evidence I can compile from my husband's behaviour about how he feels about me, where I can place some level of trust in him, based on a reasonable assessment of the available evidence. If my husband is loving and doting and tells me he loves me and does special things for me throughout the day and kisses and hugs me, and generally acts in a loving manner toward me, I can reasonably conclude that he probably does love me and is not cheating on me. On the other hand, if my husband doesn't kiss and hug me and tells me he loves me but instead acts cruelly toward me, or is always running off secretly with his phone, or stays out all night without telling me where he is, etc. I can reasonably conclude that something is wrong and that he may be cheating. There is evidence to be assessed there. I mean, I'm not just stuck blindly fumbling around believing that no matter how he behaves, he must be devoted to me.

Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have good evidence. Otherwise, they'd just provide the evidence, right? And therefore, it doesn't seem to me that faith is a reliable pathway to truth, since anything can be believed on faith. Indeed, many different people follow many different religions based on faith. They can't all be right. So I don't see how faith is a reliable pathway to truth.

737
So, bottom-line - we are governed by faith in many ways and in many things without the need of any proof! Lack of proof does work sometimes... doesn't it? Sometimes just faith is enough!
I can give you a specific scenario where our creator may have decided that we don't deserve any proof but yet required to believe. But it is not necessary because you believe proof is paramount.

I didn't ask for proof, I asked for evidence.

I don't think faith is ever enough. I need evidence.

If some creator thinks we "don't deserve any proof" then I say that creator is not worthy of worship, praise or respect.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Men were wearing make up and high heel shoes etc. Did I get that right?

This stuff is easy to look up. Men invented high heels in the 10th century CE to help with horse riding. Jesus wouldn’t even know what they were.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

How are you any different than people who hate homosexuals'?

Homosexuality doesn’t teach hatred but the Abrahamic religions do.

 

[Link]

Homosexuality doesn’t teach hatred but the Abrahamic religions do.

This maybe true, but does hatred have a place in virtue or none per your view?

 

[Link]

When I created it I had an idea that it could spiral into something else. I kinda figured it could become an anti/pro homosexual thread, which confirms my original thought. Heterosexual "sins", which permeate all facts of existence, are generally ignored. They're just to normal and popular for most to rail against.

The Quran focuses mainly on heterosexual sexual sins as emphasis but does have some dialogue on homosexuality and bisexuality.

So maybe you are on to some wisdom with your post. Also, per Jesus (a) words in Gospels and Quran in Surah 2, and hadiths, you can't command others to refrain from evil if you don't do it yourself, if you aren't righteous you should not ask others and judge them. You should judge yourself first, fix yourself, and transcend shackles of desires - then people will take what you perhaps seriously. It has the opposite effect till then.

So as I said in my first post here, I agree with you. Not only does it not stop and refrain due to hypocrisy, but it has opposite effects per hadiths. People not refraining from fornication, and adultery, and focusing on bisexuality and homosexuality and transgender etc, makes people more pushed off to do go that path of bisexuality and homosexuality in my view and won't heal people going that way.

That said, I understand, that lines of defense are being broken, and people are concerned with children being taught these things early without being able to reflect properly on it.

So it's a bit more complex, but as I said, I agree with your over all view with exception, that certain lines are being pushed too far (kids should being shown all this stuff early and made to decide early) and so this maybe desperate rally to final barrier before severe corruption takes place.