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Hindu - Caste system = ?

p_shift90

Member
Is there a form of Hinduism that does not propogate the caste system? I was told that my beliefs reflect some core Hindu beliefs, but I don't believe in castes. I'm having trouble learning anything about Hindu because I'm intimidated by all of the big Indian words like "vishishtadvaita" and "mahabharata" and all that.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Caste isn't a simple religious doctrine. There are different categories of caste.
There are the thousands of professions and social strata that you're born into, known as Jati. These are social traditions left over from a ancient, stratified, feudal society. They don't have much clear religious sanction.

There's another sort of caste though, the four Varnas, that do have a lot written about them in Scripture. These are much more generalized: An educator/intellectual/clergy class; a civil servant/military/ruling class; a craftsman/businessman class and a blue collar/working class.

There is also a group that doesn't have any caste, and work in the lowest professions, and are often shunned.

Modern India has become a huge melting pot, with social mobility, and all these "casts" are getting mixed up. In rural regions, though, there's still a very tradional, stratified culture.

Today caste is illegal in India, though a law will not change hearts and minds.
 

bansal2008

Member
Actually there is no caste system in Hinduism. But Hinduism differenciates people into four varnas- Priests, Warriors, Merchents and workers. You can see that these four exists in every society and each one is very much essential in a society, so Hinduism have equal respect for each ones as they all are interdependent each other.

It is explicitly written in GITa that not to differenciates one by his birth but by his thinking and personality.
People who are spiritually advanced is priest, and they share their spiritual knowledge with people who are seeking that. People with good physical qualities and martial arts is warriors, they save the society from invaders. People who produces and sells goods necessary for the people are merchants. And all other people come under working class, which includes engineers, carpenters, blacksmith etc.........
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Is there a form of Hinduism that does not propogate the caste system? I was told that my beliefs reflect some core Hindu beliefs, but I don't believe in castes. I'm having trouble learning anything about Hindu because I'm intimidated by all of the big Indian words like "vishishtadvaita" and "mahabharata" and all that.

Many of the sects of Tantra reject the caste system. In fact some of the temple priests in Mother Temples in Assam are of low caste.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Hmmm, do you mean something like "Hindu reform movements"?

"Several contemporary groups, collectively termed Hindu reform movements, strive to introduce regeneration and reform to Hinduism. Although these movements are very individual in their exact philosophies they generally stress the spiritual, secular and logical and scientific aspects of the Vedic traditions, creating a form that is egalitarian that does not discriminate based on Jāti (caste or subcaste), gender, or race. Thus, most modern Hindu reform movements advocate a return to the ancient, egalitarian forms of Hinduism, and view aspects of modern Hinduism, such as discrimination and the caste system, as being corrupt results from colonialism and foreign influence."

Hindu reform movements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Hmmm, do you mean something like "Hindu reform movements"?

No it is not do to a modern Hindu reform movement. The Ancient Tantric scriptures reject the caste system. One of the great things about Tantra is that it is free of caste and sex exclusiveness.

The Tantra is for all men, of whatever caste,and for all women.
-Gautamiya Tantra.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Is there a form of Hinduism that does not propogate the caste system? I was told that my beliefs reflect some core Hindu beliefs, but I don't believe in castes. I'm having trouble learning anything about Hindu because I'm intimidated by all of the big Indian words like "vishishtadvaita" and "mahabharata" and all that.

Hi :)
Caste system is not a religious dogma. It is mostly a cultural phenomenon.
Hinduism is a very complicated sequence of religious schools. Vedic philosophy is incredibly vast.

Edited: Sorry, I thought you said that you are intimidated by books like Mahabharata so I just deleted that last part of my reply...
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
The Caste system in Hinduism in the times of the Vedas was not fixed. It was common for people to move from one caste to another depending on personal skills and ability's. The Chandogya Upanishad is a very old book it was (pre buddha). It is also from the Vedas' Hinduism's most holy scripture. This story shows that a son of a low caste prostitute could become a Brahmin. ( the highest caste )

From the Chandogya Upanishad


“Long ago, in the Chandogya Upanishad, sage Gautama accepted Satyakama (a lad with lowly social status and son of a sudra prostitute) as his student for becoming a brahmin based on certain important qualities, which still remain valid today and can be used for selecting and training present-day non-brahmin priests and temple worshippers.
One day the boy Satyakama came to his mother and said, “Mother, I want to be a religious student. What is my family name?”
“My son,” replied his mother, “ I do not know. In my youth I was a servant and worked in many places. I do not know who was your father. I am Jabala, and you are Satyakama. Call yourself Satyakama Jabala.”
Thereupon the boy went to Gautama and asked to be accepted as a student. “Of what family are you, my lad?” inquired the sage.
Satyakama replied, “ I asked my mother what my family name was, and she answered: ‘I do not know. In my youth I was a servant and worked in many places. I do not know who was your father. I am Jabala, and you are Satyakama. Call yourself Satyakama Jabala!’ I am therefore Satyakama Jabala, Sir.”
Then said the sage, “None but a true brahmin would have spoken thus. Go and fetch fuel, I will teach you. You have not swerved from the truth.”

The Chandogya Upanishad translated by Swami Prabhavananda

This shows that caste in the Vedic times did not always depend on birth.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Is there a form of Hinduism that does not propogate the caste system? I was told that my beliefs reflect some core Hindu beliefs, but I don't believe in castes. I'm having trouble learning anything about Hindu because I'm intimidated by all of the big Indian words like "vishishtadvaita" and "mahabharata" and all that.

I can help you with the pronounciation of some of those words.

"Vish ishta dvaita" "maha bha rata"

Not to mention, there are many Western books that use longer words sparingly, and usually providing a translation right away.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Many Hindu saints such as Kabir, Caitanya, Ramanuja, Tukaram and Ramananda rejected all caste-based discrimination and accepted disciples from all the castes. Hindu reformers like Swami Vivekananda believed that there is no place for the caste system in Hinduism.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Since the caste system has been brought up, I think it would be good for our fellow Hindus here to explain what the difference is between the caste system and the varna system (social classification) is for those who don't know - since I know a lot of people who mix them up. :)

And, I myself like to know more about the varna system, since I know very little about it. If I recall correctly, it's not a permanent thing is it? I dunno if this should be on another thread though? Want me to open up one? :)
 

bansal2008

Member
caste system is based on someone's birth and this has no origin in Sanatan Dharma.

Varna system is based on KarmA, one's thinking and personality.

Actually there is no caste system in Hinduism. But Hinduism differenciates people into four varnas- Priests, Warriors, Merchents and workers. You can see that these four exists in every society and each one is very much essential in a society, so Hinduism have equal respect for each ones as they all are interdependent each other.

It is explicitly written in GITa that not to differenciates one by his birth but by his thinking and personality.
People who are spiritually advanced is priest, and they share their spiritual knowledge with people who are seeking that. People with good physical qualities and martial arts is warriors, they save the society from invaders. People who produces and sells goods necessary for the people are merchants. And all other people come under working class, which includes engineers, carpenters, blacksmith etc.........
 

bp789

Member
Someone told me that being a Brahmin is by birth because the Brahmins are descendants of the Saptarishis, and someone who isn't a descendant can't become a Brahmin.
 

bansal2008

Member
someone asked me a question that to what VARNA do i belong to?

since varna are not based on birth but on your gunas (virtues), how would you answer this??

I told him that i am in none of the varnas yet since i am still a student. but still how would you answer this??
 

anupj

Mystic
Someone told me that being a Brahmin is by birth because the Brahmins are descendants of the Saptarishis, and someone who isn't a descendant can't become a Brahmin.

no as per my knowledge that cannot be true. i read that somewhere in mahabharata, it is written that in the beginning all were brahmanas, then after some time by there deeds new varnas were born and people were then brahmanas, kshatriyas, etc. i will post the detail info if i get some
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Someone told me that being a Brahmin is by birth because the Brahmins are descendants of the Saptarishis, and someone who isn't a descendant can't become a Brahmin.

Veda Vyasa was born of a low caste and became a Brahmin later in life. He is the Sage that organised the Vedas.

In the Mahabharata Yudhisthira when he was questioned about what makes one a Brahmin. Yudhisthira said that it is conduct alone that makes you a Brahmin.
 
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bansal2008

Member
Someone told me that being a Brahmin is by birth because the Brahmins are descendants of the Saptarishis, and someone who isn't a descendant can't become a Brahmin.

no as per my knowledge that cannot be true. i read that somewhere in mahabharata, it is written that in the beginning all were brahmanas, then after some time by there deeds new varnas were born and people were then brahmanas, kshatriyas, etc. i will post the detail info if i get some

The post by anupj is absolutely right..The references can be found in the Uttara Kanda of Ramayana...There were only Brahmins and Kshatriyas in Satya yuga and in later yugas other 2 castes were added..due to the increase in Adharma

The divine sage Narada offered his advice. "Listen 0 king, to the reason for the child's untimely death. Each age has its own laws and rules, by following which the whole land will prosper, and by failing which, the whole cosmic order will be disrupted. In the golden age of Satya Yuga) only the Brahmins were allowed to practise austerities, in the next age of Treta, the Kshatriyas were also allowed to practise tapas. It was in this age that the next two castes were created. The vaishyas practised trade and the shudras served the other three castes. In the Dwapara Yuga, adharma increased and vaishyas were also allowed to practise tapas but the shudras were still forbidden to do so. It is only in the age of Kali that shudras will be allowed to practise tapas. This is still the age of Treta and I fear that some shudra is practising tapas somewhere in your kingdom.
 

bp789

Member
Veda Vyasa was born of a low caste and became a Brahmin later in life. He is the Sage that organised the Vedas.

In the Mahabharata Yudhisthira when he was questioned about what makes one a Brahmin. Yudhisthira said that it is conduct alone that makes you a Brahmin.

But Veda Vyas was patrilineally descended from Rishi Vashishta who was one of the Saptarishis, so I don't think that could be used to convince others.
 

Andal

resident hypnotist
There must be a distinction made between varna and jati.

Varna is not born into but ascribed to one based on their virtues and inclinations. Some people are learned, while others prefer commerce, and still others like to protect, and some like to work with the land. All groups are necessary for a society to flow smoothly and all must follow their dharma for society to flourish. This is absolutely not birth based. One is a Brahmin by conduct not by birth. This is evident today in India where plenty of born brahmins do not do that job. One can become a brahmin through initiation based on their virtue.

This is appropriate social stratification.

What we have today in birth based castes (jati) is a twisted view. It is easy to see how this has happened. People tend to traditionally pass down trades through the family. For example, if your dad is a farmer, there's a good chance you will become a farmer. This has morphed into this idea that one is born into a caste and can not leave it (except through marriage) This is a cultural practice in south asia that is not contained to just Hindus but also practiced by other religions.

Varnashrama is the proper mode of a progressing society. Jati will only hold it back. Let's not forget too that people born in the upper jatis have vested interested in maintaining the status quo so of course they would say things like one has to be of a lineage to be brahmin.
 
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