[Hindus Only] Question for Hindus

[kalyan]

namaskaram , ..

please post Chapter and verse of your own transtation with comentary then later I can compare, ....I will return to this this evening but now l have to go out , ....

Any chapter you can take, for example 3rd chapter and BG , 3:14

 

[Aupmanyav]

Any action is a 'yajna' and every action is 'sacrifice' (one sacrfices something for any action, mind, time, effort). If it is good for the family, society and country, then it is a good 'yajna'. If not then it is like a 'yajna' done by rakshasas. So we had 'bhu-dana yajna' - giving some of what land one hold to those who do not have it, and 'shram-dana yajna' - where bodily labor is offered for the benefit of the society, etc.

For those who do not know the terms - Bhu-dana - gifting land in charity. Shrama is (as mentioned) bodily labor. Sikhs have kar-seva, cleaning the gurudwara, preparing food for the community, taking care of shoes and other belongings of visitors, cleaning of the pond at their main gurudwara, Sri Darbar Sahib in Amritsar. These are all 'yajnas'.

The shirt-less person on the left with a goatee beard is Vinoba Bhave, who started 'Bhu-dana', giving away land to those who do not have it.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Any chapter you can take, for example 3rd chapter and BG , 3:14

Okay, let us examine your claim. Verse in question is:

annad bhavanti bhutani
parjanyad anna-sambhavah
yajnad bhavati parjanyo
yajnah karma-samudbhavah

Srila Prabhupada translates yajnad as 'by the performance of sacrifice'. Reading further into his commentary he clarifies what he means by yagna:

"The Supreme Lord, who is known as the yajña-puruṣaḥ, or the personal beneficiary of all sacrifices, is the master of all demigods who serve Him as the different limbs of the body serve the whole. Demigods like Indra, Candra, Varuṇa, etc., are appointed officers who manage material affairs, and the Vedas direct sacrifices to satisfy these demigods so that they may be pleased to supply air, light and water sufficiently to produce food grains"

now compare this Madhavacharyas commentary (Ramanuja did not write any for this verse):
"Actions are born from the Vedas because the Vedas prescribe yagna or worship and appeasement and the performance of yagna is done by actions"

Here it seems thart both acharyas are referring to the Yagna as meaning as worship (not simply vedic homa). Yes Srila Prabhupada (as well as Sridhara Svami) both discuss Homa. but ultimatley Srila Prabhupada concludes:

"The Lord can be satisfied by sacrifices; therefore, one who cannot perform them will find himself in scarcity-that is the law of nature. Yajña, specifically the saṅkīrtana-yajñaprescribed for this age, must therefore be performed to save us at least from scarcity of food supply"

 

[kalyan]

Ramanuja did not write any for this verse)

why ? there has to be one

Yes Srila Prabhupada (as well as Sridhara Svami) both discuss Homa. but ultimatley Srila Prabhupada concludes:

"The Lord can be satisfied by sacrifices; therefore, one who cannot perform them will find himself in scarcity-that is the law of nature. Yajña, specifically the saṅkīrtana-yajña

so you are agreeing prabhupada version has a hole in it, secondly, just by doing sankirtana which we can do only 2 or 3 hours max, how can we get rid of billions of karmic records that we have stored at various levels, prabhupada version does not mention when it refers to yagna as how the karma needs to be done...So this is a gaping hole in his translation,

 

[निताइ dasa]

why ? there has to be one

I could not find it where the other commentaries are given for this verse.

so you are agreeing prabhupada version has a hole in it, secondly, just by doing sankirtana which we can do only 2 or 3 hours max, how can we get rid of billions of karmic records that we have stored at various levels,

I humbly disagree. I don't see a hole, it makes sense to me. Even one Nama can immediately destroy Karma (even prarabhdha). It is the most holiest process, as described in Mahabharata:

madhura-madhuram etan mangalam mangalanam
sakala-nigama-valli-sat-phalam cit-svarupam
sakrid api parigitam sraddhaya helaya va
bhrigu-vara nara-matram tarayet krishna-nama

"Krishna's name is the sweetest of sweet things, the most auspicious of auspicious things, the transcendental fruit of the vine of all Vedic literature. O best of the Bhrigus, chanted even once, either with faith or contempt, it completely delivers the chanter"

Srimad Bhagavatam also agrees with this

āpannaḥ saṁsṛtiṁ ghorāṁ
 yan-nāma vivaśo gṛṇan
tataḥ sadyo vimucyeta
 yad bibheti svayaṁ bhayam

"Living beings who are entangled in the complicated meshes of birth and death can be freed immediately by even unconsciously chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, which is feared by fear personified"

 

[kalyan]

Even one Nama can immediately destroy Karma (even prarabhdha).

may be am not sure, if it removes prarabdha karma, we would be dead.

But the point is even if we chant hari nAma, we could only do it for some time but after that I am again constantly engaging in accumulating lots of karma which can give one lots of births again, until and unless one knows how the karma needs to be qualified in relation to yagna that Krushna describes, the karmic records cannot be erased, i am not able to follow Sri Krushna advice as I think I am accumulating lots of karmic records every day as of now but I am just pointing out Sri Krushna words. The point is prabhupada gets its wrong by giving homa as meaning of yagna which is absurd, its like BhagawadGitai for BRAHMINS only..

 

[निताइ dasa]

The point is prabhupada gets its wrong by giving homa as meaning of yagna which is absurd, its like BhagawadGitai for BRAHMINS only..

Haribol, I agree with you here prabhuji, though Prabhupada discusses Homa, he only does it out of respect for Sridhara Swami and Nimbarkacharya (whose commentaries translate this to mean Homa). However, if you look at the translation, yagna he is giving a general translation to sacrifice. I completley agree with you here, Yagna should not be translated to mean only Homa. but that is why the meaning is clarified in the beginning and end. So I think this may be a misunderstanding.

As per your other statement about Harinama. Is it not true that after saranagati to Lord Krsna (and His Name which is non-different from Him) Karma cannot affect you? I mean that is what Sri Krsna says later when he says "sarva dharma paritrajya, mam ekam saranam vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo "

Here the Lord is saying that if you surrender unto Him (which can be done through Sankirtan, that is my point) then no sin (or any karmic result) can touch one, as one is beyond Maya at that point. What do you think?

 

[Aupmanyav]

By just taking Lord's name nothing is achieved. Shishupala also took Lord's name day and night but he was evil. Lord's name has to be accompanied by action according to dharma.

 

[Shantanu]

"bhajagovindaM bhajagovindaM
govindaM bhajamuuDhamate .
naamasmaraNaadanyamupaayaM
nahi pashyaamo bhavataraNe "

Worship Govinda, worship Govinda, worship Govinda, Oh fool ! Other than chanting the Lord’s names, there is no other way to cross the life’s ocean.- Adi Sankaracharya

Is a human being born with Govinda-realisation?

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Kalyan ji, ..

may be am not sure, if it removes prarabdha karma, we would be dead.

But the point is even if we chant hari nAma, we could only do it for some time but after that I am again constantly engaging in accumulating lots of karma which can give one lots of births again, until and unless one knows how the karma needs to be qualified in relation to yagna that Krushna describes, the karmic records cannot be erased, i am not able to follow Sri Krushna advice as I think I am accumulating lots of karmic records every day as of now but I am just pointing out Sri Krushna words. The point is prabhupada gets its wrong by giving homa as meaning of yagna which is absurd, its like BhagawadGitai for BRAHMINS only..

prabu ji please accept my humble obecances , ....

and realise please that I am speaking to you as one devotee to another , this is not a debate this is just an attempt to answer your questions thus remove the need for any one to criticise any Acarya or accuse any one of false claims , ....
please correct me if I am wrong in understanding what you are saying , ...

you are thinking that to chant or perform harinama removes 'prarabdha karma' but you are saying that once one stops this action one is again accumulating Karma ?

this is only so if one is un surrendered , ...what Krsna is takes great pains to explain to Arjuna in the Gita that one who is surrendered , one who ''offers ones work in sacrifice'' does not accumulate further Karma , ...one does not need to be a Bhramin to do this , ...one need only to love God and be surrendsred to his Lotus feet , .....

yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra
loko 'yam karma-bandhanah
tad-artham karma kaunteya
mukta-sangah samacara​

Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage. ........Bhagavad Gita Ch ..3 V .. 9
​

thus one executes ones work , all actions , ones daily duties etc in offering to the Supreme becomes free from the accumulation of fresh karma , ...

like wise by ofering ones food one becomes free from any concequence , ....Giving everything First to the lord , even our Chanting and our Harinama should not be done with the thought of our own presonal gain it should be done in suplication or glorification , yes true it removes our 'prarabdha karma' but this should not be our goal , certainly this will happen , but it should not be our primary concern otherwise we are chanting solely for the benifit , in such an instance there is no surrender Thus there is still Karma attatched , ...

I hope the verse above frees you from concern that Srila Prabhupada teaches that only Homa removes past sins , ....
here I give the opening portion of Srila Prabhupadas Purport to the above verse , ...

''Since one has to work even for the simple maintenance of the body, the prescribed duties for a particular social position and quality are so made that that purpose can be fulfilled. Yajña means Lord Viṣṇu, or sacrificial performances. All sacrificial performances also are meant for the satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu. The Vedas enjoin: yajño vai viṣṇuḥ. In other words, the same purpose is served whether one performs prescribed yajñas or directly serves Lord Viṣṇu. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is therefore performance of yajña as it is prescribed in this verse.
Therefore one has to work for the satisfaction of Viṣṇu. Any other work done in this material world wilI be a cause of bondage, for both good and evil work have their reactions, and any reaction binds the performer. Therefore, one has to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness to satisfy Kṛṣṇa (or Viṣṇu); and while performing such activities one is in a liberated stage.''

here he clearly says one who performs prescribed Yajnas or.... , .....here the choice is given even for the lowest caste to offer his mundane activities and his megere food in offering to Visnu , he who offers in this way equaly will reach the stage of liberation .
​

 

[Shantanu]

Namaskaram Kalyan ji, ..



prabu ji please accept my humble obecances , ....

and realise please that I am speaking to you as one devotee to another , this is not a debate this is just an attempt to answer your questions thus remove the need for any one to criticise any Acarya or accuse any one of false claims , ....
please correct me if I am wrong in understanding what you are saying , ...

you are thinking that to chant or perform harinama removes 'prarabdha karma' but you are saying that once one stops this action one is again accumulating Karma ?

this is only so if one is un surrendered , ...what Krsna is takes great pains to explain to Arjuna in the Gita that one who is surrendered , one who ''offers ones work in sacrifice'' does not accumulate further Karma , ...one does not need to be a Bhramin to do this , ...one need only to love God and be surrendsred to his Lotus feet , .....

yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra
loko 'yam karma-bandhanah
tad-artham karma kaunteya
mukta-sangah samacara​

Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage. ........Bhagavad Gita Ch ..3 V .. 9
​

thus one executes ones work , all actions , ones daily duties etc in offering to the Supreme becomes free from the accumulation of fresh karma , ...

like wise by ofering ones food one becomes free from any concequence , ....Giving everything First to the lord , even our Chanting and our Harinama should not be done with the thought of our own presonal gain it should be done in suplication or glorification , yes true it removes our 'prarabdha karma' but this should not be our goal , certainly this will happen , but it should not be our primary concern otherwise we are chanting solely for the benifit , in such an instance there is no surrender Thus there is still Karma attatched , ...

I hope the verse above frees you from concern that Srila Prabhupada teaches that only Homa removes past sins , ....
here I give the opening portion of Srila Prabhupadas Purport to the above verse , ...

''Since one has to work even for the simple maintenance of the body, the prescribed duties for a particular social position and quality are so made that that purpose can be fulfilled. Yajña means Lord Viṣṇu, or sacrificial performances. All sacrificial performances also are meant for the satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu. The Vedas enjoin: yajño vai viṣṇuḥ. In other words, the same purpose is served whether one performs prescribed yajñas or directly serves Lord Viṣṇu. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is therefore performance of yajña as it is prescribed in this verse.
Therefore one has to work for the satisfaction of Viṣṇu. Any other work done in this material world wilI be a cause of bondage, for both good and evil work have their reactions, and any reaction binds the performer. Therefore, one has to work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness to satisfy Kṛṣṇa (or Viṣṇu); and while performing such activities one is in a liberated stage.''

here he clearly says one who performs prescribed Yajnas or.... , .....here the choice is given even for the lowest caste to offer his mundane activities and his megere food in offering to Visnu , he who offers in this way equaly will reach the stage of liberation .
​

If God gave us a life to live like human beings, he created us to live in particular ways. This is known as dharma. The question then is what is dharma, how does one determine the dharma that is blessed by God. If you are saying that the only dharma that is blessed by God is one that surrenders all ones actions to Him, it must be a very selfish and self-infatuated God who is not worth worshipping because of His narcicism: do you agree?

 

[kalyan]

Who first told a human being that God's name is Sri Krishna or Krishna or anything else for that matter?
Why should the name of God be important in attaining his blessings?

god = Krushna, If you say god even without mentioning any name it goes to Sri Maha VishNu only. Just like when we say collector, it refers to IAS collector and not the bill collector or ticket collector. This is because Vedam says that the husband of Sri Maha Lakshmi is the kArana or the cause of the entire universe. Even if you refer god by some name like rudra, it goes to his antaryami Srimannarayana

 

[kalyan]

this is only so if one is un surrendered

surrendering needs to be done under a proper vaidika acharya who gives the astakshari, dwaya and charama sloka from the rAmAnuja lineage as Ramanuja holds the position of acharya to Krushna, when Sri Maha Vishnu landed in the form of Sri Venkateswara or else there is no liberation not in a billion lives.. That is why in Tirumala till today, opposite to the moola vigraham of Maha Vishnu at around the chest height Ramanuja deity stands opposite to Venkateswara. Surrendering to those acharya will remove sanchita and Agami but there is every chance that you could accumulate if you fully did not understand the meaning of surrender and in this materialistic world, if you do any activity thinking I am doing then again karmic record is established. This is not easy,

 

[Shantanu]

god = Krushna, If you say god even without mentioning any name it goes to Sri Maha VishNu only. Just like when we say collector, it refers to IAS collector and not the bill collector or ticket collector. This is because Vedam says that the husband of Sri Maha Lakshmi is the kArana or the cause of the entire universe. Even if you refer god by some name like rudra, it goes to his antaryami Srimannarayana

So Krushna is not the Creator of the universe?

 

[kalyan]

So Krushna is not the Creator of the universe?

If you go by logistics, it is nArAyaNa who does sristi, but the same tattwam appeared as Sri Krushna also, so you can say either...

 

[निताइ dasa]

If God gave us a life to live like human beings, he created us to live in particular ways. This is known as dharma. The question then is what is dharma, how does one determine the dharma that is blessed by God. If you are saying that the only dharma that is blessed by God is one that surrenders all ones actions to Him, it must be a very selfish and self-infatuated God who is not worth worshipping because of His narcicism: do you agree?

There are many many varieties of Dharma, which each give different results. Some follow scripture to attain artha, and some do it for kama,some to fulfil their duty . However these are all material and temporary because are related and arise from the material body (hence called Naimitika or circumstantial dharma). For example, Pitr Dharma (the duties of being a father) only apply to me if I (the soul) am in the body of a father. This body however is temporary, and therefore as a result Pitr Dharma in also impermanent. In the beginning of Kaliyuga, the sages of Naimisaranya all gathered, and they asked Sutadeva Goswami (who was realised) the following question in relation to this:

"bhūrīṇi bhūri-karmāṇi
śrotavyāni vibhāgaśaḥ
ataḥ sādho 'tra yat sāraṁ
samuddhṛtya manīṣayā
brūhi bhadrāya bhūtānāṁ
yenātmā suprasīdati"

"There are many varieties of scriptures, and in all of them there are many prescribed duties (Dharma), which can be learned only after many years of study in their various divisions. Therefore, O sage, please select the essence of all these scriptures and explain it for the good of all living beings, that by such instruction their hearts may be fully satisfied.

So here the sages are asking Suta Deva, "What is the essence of all scriptures, what is the topmost Dharma by which the needs of the soul (the need for Ananda) can be satisfied?" To this Sutadeva Goswami gives the following response:

"sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
ahaituky apratihatā
yayātmā suprasīdati"

"The most supreme Dharma for all humanity that by which one can attain to loving devotional service (Bhakti) unto the transcendent Lord (Hari). Such devotional service must be causeless and uninterrupted to completely satisfy the self."

That is the Nitya Dharma or the Sanatana Dharma of all human-kind, and that is a loving relationship with Lord Hari. It is only this which can satisfy the soul. All souls want ananda (bliss) however the material world cannot give us this bliss because it is not Sat-Cid-Ananda. Only Sri Hari, our source can give us this Bliss which we crave. That is the view of the Vaishnavs. Haribol!

 

[Aupmanyav]

Aupmanyav's 'non-prabhupada' translation of the verse:

"Yajñārthāt karmaṇo'nyatra, loko'yaḿ karma-bandhanaḥ;
tadarthaḿ karma Kaunteya, mukta-sańgaḥ samācara."

yajña-arthāt - work done only for the cause of dharma; karmaṇaḥ - than work; anyatra - otherwise; lokaḥ - world; ayam - this; karma-bandhanaḥ - bondage by work; tat - of Him; artham - for the sake; karma - work; kaunteya - O son of Kuntī; mukta-sańgaḥ - liberated from association; samācara - do perfectly (? or just do).

Work for the cause (of dharma), otherwise work is a bondage in this world; work in that way, O Son of Kunti (Arjuna), work without attachment.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Aupmanyav's 'non-prabhupada' translation of the verse:

"Yajñārthāt karmaṇo'nyatra, loko'yaḿ karma-bandhanaḥ;
tadarthaḿ karma Kaunteya, mukta-sańgaḥ samācara."

yajña-arthāt - work done only for the sake of dharma; karmaṇaḥ - than work; anyatra - otherwise; lokaḥ - world; ayam - this; karma-bandhanaḥ - bondage by work; tat - of Him; artham - for the sake; karma - work; kaunteya - O son of Kuntī; mukta-sańgaḥ - liberated from association; samācara - do perfectly.

Work for the cause (of dharma), otherwise work is a bondage in this world; work in that way, O Son of Kunti (Arjuna), work without attachment to your best of your ability.

I like it.

 

[Shantanu]

If you go by logistics, it is nArAyaNa who does sristi, but the same tattwam appeared as Sri Krushna also, so you can say either...

Do you not know that just like there is good (sattvic), indifferent/routinal (rajasic) and evil (tamasic) in humans, so there is the same in the gods?

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Kalyan ji , ...

QUOTE="kalyan, post: 4586021, member: 47528"]surrendering needs to be done under a proper vaidika acharya who gives the astakshari, dwaya and charama sloka from the rAmAnuja lineage as Ramanuja holds the position of acharya to Krushna,when Sri Maha Vishnu landed in the form of Sri Venkateswara or else there is no liberation not in a billion lives..[/Quote]

this is a very nice beleif For a Sri Vaisnava , and certainly receiving guidance is of great benifit ,but Surrender is a state of mind , ....I hope you are not telling me that only a devotee of Ramanujacharya can acheive surrender ???

That is why in Tirumala till today, opposite to the moola vigraham of Maha Vishnu at around the chest height Ramanuja deity stands opposite to Venkateswara.

Prabhu ji I have no dissrespect fpr Ramanujacharya , nor for Sri Vaisnavas in any way , .....infact a true Vaisnava should revere all Vaisnava acharyas , ....as it is through the mercy of all that each individual can be liberated , ...

Surrendering to those acharya will remove sanchita and Agami but there is every chance that you could accumulate if you fully did not understand the meaning of surrender and in this materialistic world, if you do any activity thinking I am doing then again karmic record is established. This is not easy,

Prabhu ji I think you did not understand the Gita verse l quoted you earlier ???

yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra
loko 'yam karma-bandhanah
tad-artham karma kaunteya
mukta-sangah samacara
Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage. ........Bhagavad Gita Ch ..3 V .. 9
​

thus one executes ones work , all actions , ones daily duties etc in offering to the Supreme becomes free from the accumulation of fresh karma , ...

it specificaly recomends surrendering all actions , which means performing ones actions for the satisfaction of Sri Krsna , ..rather for the purpose of removing ones accumulated Karma , .....this is exactly what I meant , you canot do any action for ones own benifit , it must be done from the heart for the love of and the satisfaction of Sri Krsna .

yes , it can either be very difficult in which case one needs the Guru as ferry man to carry you from this material world ..in which case you must surrender fully to him , you must trust him completely and cary out his instructions explicitly , ....

or it can be easy , ...Do every thing for the satisfaction of Krsna , ...become a devotee , ...become a true Bhakti Yogi , ...become mad , ...forget this material world with all its noncence ,... think only of Krsna , act only for Krsna live only for Krsna , ....

when a person can do this he can glorify the Lord and all the lords devotees equaly , ...look for the good in all , ...
all the time one is looking to find fault in anothers Acharya one is hurting Krsna , if you insult his devotee you will hurt Krsna as his devotee is very dear to him , ..he says this repeatedly , ...what is the point of trying to surrender to one Guru whilst insulting another , this makes no sence , ....so yes , by doing this you will certainly accumulate more Karma , ...