Historical Evidence For the Existence of Jesus

[Unification]

I want to know, so I have devoted years of study to learn as much as I can

Go to the place of the skull, the temple... That's within your own head and close off your mind, and your own knowledge, you'll know everything you need to know, and they are of conscious and truth, and is no lie. Escape the mind and the past, buddy.

 

[outhouse]

Go to the place of the skull, the temple... That's within your own head and close off your mind, and your own knowledge, you'll know everything you need to know, and they are of conscious and truth, and is no lie. Escape the mind and the past, buddy.

We are talking about real history here thank you.


Not tuning out of life.

 

[Unification]

We are talking about real history here thank you.


Not tuning out of life.

You live now. Tuning out the mind, not life.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I don't know. Anybody know how many relics there are claimed to be or were claimed to be in the world? Off the top of my head, there was the shroud of turin, a lance, sometimes there were claims made about a piece of the cross, I'm sure there were others.

 

[outhouse]

I don't know. Anybody know how many relics there are claimed to be or were claimed to be in the world? Off the top of my head, there was the shroud of turin, a lance, sometimes there were claims made about a piece of the cross, I'm sure there were others.

None of those are credible and all though to be fraud.

Josephus, Paul and the gospels are as good as it gets, and its not great.


The problem lies in the fact that only a martyred Galilean at Passover explains all the evidence to a T.

No other hypothesis put forward makes any sense

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The problem lies in the fact that only a martyred Galilean at Passover explains all the evidence to a T.

Can you expand on that a little bit, what do you mean?

 

[steeltoes]

None of those are credible and all though to be fraud.

Josephus, Paul and the gospels are as good as it gets, and its not great.


The problem lies in the fact that only a martyred Galilean at Passover explains all the evidence to a T.

No other hypothesis put forward makes any sense

The Bible itself, the source for all this conjecture of an historical Jesus, is unreliable. There is no need for sceptics to endorse any particular myth hypothesis, the fact of the matter is that sceptics simply remain sceptical of these historical Jesus claims due to the unreliability of its sources, end of story.

 

[outhouse]

Can you expand on that a little bit, what do you mean?

Sure.

Every bit of the evidence we have written by later Hellenist in the Diaspora who were far removed from any actual event or word, so far can only be explained by an Aramaic Galilean who was baptized by John and took over Johns movement after Johns death. A man who was crucified in the temple at Passover for causing a disturbance.

Not one of the movement enemies every stated he was a mythical character nor question his human existence.

What we do see is a man who died and was martyred for his perceived selfless actions in the temple, that generated many different beliefs in theology and mythology.

 

[Bunyip]

Not one of the movement enemies every stated he was a mythical character nor question his human existence.

LOL Logic fail of the year. Erm....nobody ever stated that the person we have no direct evidence of did not exist.......so he must have existed! ROLF. I love that kind of thinking, it is perfectly backwards.

We have no contemporary evidence of Jesus, and no eye witness accounts - but apparently because we have no accounts of his not existing (being mythical) therefore he existed! Wow!

What we do see is a man who died and was martyred for his perceived selfless actions in the temple, that generated many different beliefs in theology and mythology.

Does this work for Smurfs?

I have no contemporary records from the time of Christ stating that Smurfs are mythical. Not one single account from ancient Palestine denying the existence of Smurfs. So they MUST have existed!

Gosh.....now I think of it, this works for EVERYTHING! I'm looking through the old texts for any statement from ancient Palestine stating that Godzilla is a myth - but I can't find one! Oh my GOD! GODZILLA IS REAL!!!!

 

[outhouse]

Unlike the ignored member above, who has been placed there for refusal to address any topic in academia.

I have sources, many mythicist refuse all education and wish to remain uneducated but still wish to fight tooth and nail against what is not even debated.

It is exactly like creationist fighting evolution.


Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Virtually all scholars who write on the subject accept that Jesus existed

 

[steeltoes]

It is exactly like creationist fighting evolution.

Agreed, just like creationists that hold up The Bible as evidence for what they believe in. No argument there.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Every bit of the evidence we have written by later Hellenist in the Diaspora who were far removed from any actual event or word, so far can only be explained by an Aramaic Galilean who was baptized by John and took over Johns movement after Johns death.

How did these writers know about it? Someone probably told them right, they said that 'this group you see acting this way are the followers of Jesus who was crucified this long ago.' It probably not being unusual that revolutionary instigators were put to death, they'd have no reason to doubt a group's association with a leader.

 

[steeltoes]

How did these writers know about it? Someone probably told them right, they said that 'this group you see acting this way are the followers of Jesus who was crucified this long ago.' It probably not being unusual that revolutionary instigators were put to death, they'd have no reason to doubt a group's association with a leader.

We have the words of anonymous writers of scripture, what's not to believe in regards to real historical events?

 

[outhouse]

How did these writers know about it?

We have a death of a man who was martyred. oral traditions in illiterate societies.

We also know Mark was a compilation of pre existing written traditions. Paul tells us of other traditions and text in place in that time period.

We also know only a fraction of text and traditions survived to this day.

We also had a group of Hellenist who had been worshipping Judaism but would not fully convert, and did not want to be associated with these trouble makers.

So we have many different groups who all wanted Judaism light, these groups developed their theology around the martyred man and shared these traditions at Passover every year.

This is how and why the movement spread so far and so fast, and started equally in so many different geographic locations. Remember there was no center for where this started, its not like it originated in Jerusalem and spread from there. Its not what we see.

Someone probably told them right, they said that 'this group you see acting this way are the followers of Jesus who was crucified this long ago.'

It was not a long time ago. The stories were going around the Empire during his living memory of people there.

Paul was writing 15 years later and no one doubted his existence.

It probably not being unusual that revolutionary instigators were put to death, they'd have no reason to doubt a group's association with a leader.

Thing is, if one man started a riot trying to get people behind him to help overthrow the corrupt politicians and Roman oppressors, his actions would be perceived as a selfless sacrifice when he was crucified for standing up for the common man.

 

[steeltoes]

We have a death of a man who was martyred. oral traditions in illiterate societies.

We also know Mark was a compilation of pre existing written traditions. Paul tells us of other traditions and text in place in that time period.

We also know only a fraction of text and traditions survived to this day.

We also had a group of Hellenist who had been worshipping Judaism but would not fully convert, and did not want to be associated with these trouble makers.

So we have many different groups who all wanted Judaism light, these groups developed their theology around the martyred man and shared these traditions at Passover every year.

This is how and why the movement spread so far and so fast, and started equally in so many different geographic locations. Remember there was no center for where this started, its not like it originated in Jerusalem and spread from there. Its not what we see.



It was not a long time ago. The stories were going around the Empire during his living memory of people there.

Paul was writing 15 years later and no one doubted his existence.



Thing is, if one man started a riot trying to get people behind him to help overthrow the corrupt politicians and Roman oppressors, his actions would be perceived as a selfless sacrifice when he was crucified for standing up for the common man.

We have the words of anonymous writers of scripture, people merely had to read their scriptures and pass on what they read to others, and that's all that was necessary, there is no need for conspiracy theories of oral traditions and a martyred man to support the scriptures.

 

[outhouse]

We have the words of anonymous writers of scripture,

All people back then wrote anonymous as they were not just one man writing, they were often communities writing.

there is no need for conspiracy theories of oral traditions

When understanding these were illiterate people, it would be ignorant to assume they remained silent and did not speak.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Paul was writing 15 years later and no one doubted his existence.

Outhouse, there were people living during that time that didn't for a second doubt the existence of such magical entities as Thor and Zeus. And to your point that these societies were illiterate, how true is that? We are talking about Rome, Greece, and Israel where people read. Paul wrote for a reason, because there were readers.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Gosh.....now I think of it, this works for EVERYTHING! I'm looking through the old texts for any statement from ancient Palestine stating that Godzilla is a myth - but I can't find one! Oh my GOD! GODZILLA IS REAL!!!!

A better example might be the phoenix. This mythological animal was mentioned by some ancient western historians I believe, and they would speak of its elusive nature casting doubt on whether or not it might just be fictional.

 

[outhouse]

Outhouse, there were people living during that time that didn't for a second doubt the existence of such magical entities as Thor and Zeus.

Neither one of these legends were created a few years after their reported death. That makes all the difference.

And to your point that these societies were illiterate, how true is that?

Close to fact.

Israel is 3% - 5% and same for the Diaspora.

We are talking about Rome, Greece, and Israel where people read. Paul wrote for a reason, because there were readers.

No they were not readers as a whole. Some were readers, most could not read and write. Most were not well educated. Reading and writing were for the rich people.


Most were not, most were illiterate.


So why Paul wrote his epistles/letters because of illiteracy, they were not as wide spread as you would think. When they were read, they wee read by the one guy that could to an audience.

 

[outhouse]

A better example might be the phoenix. This mythological animal was mentioned by some ancient western historians I believe, and they would speak of its elusive nature casting doubt on whether or not it might just be fictional.

Its born of mythology.

The difference is here we have aman reported as being crucified in front of half a million witnesses at the biggest gather and event of the year, and not one person claimed its a made up story. and these traditions all go back to living memory when people were in attendance.


The fact no one questions it is pretty strong.

Take Paul, he was hated and loved. We have all kinds of traditions showing a wide range of belief for him and his words and actions. And he was a very important figure in the NT.

With Jesus we have nothing like that, just many different version of how it all went down, just like if a man had died and been martyred.


No other hypothesis explains the traditions and history we see.