History reapeats itself.

[Engyo]

im counting ALL of them. natives, modern, ancient. Anything that has a higher focus.

So please explain how you account for societies that arose without the benefit of scripture. How did that happen, since according to your arguments this is not possible?

 

[it's_sam]

Show me this society and i will do so. So far it is realy only people saying "it's not real" wich are otherwise supported by a system that had allready existed off of that foundation. Am i missing anything?

 

[it's_sam]

There is a reason God was included in the stating( decloration of indep., etc..) of our growth in our country and from all sides. What is the reason to you?

 

[Duck]

Are you so blind to see that im saying the scripture has led society to where we are today? My statements have never been focused on you needing more scripture then you have received. I can tell youve heard enough that bad thoughts are trvial to you. But this understanding is ONLY to YOU and only because of what you have heard thus far. If the words and thoughts of scripture never existed you think we would be in the same place? Honestly?

Well, one could make the argument, based largely on the fact that chrisitanity and christian scripture has dominated the last 2000ish years in the West, and that well, there have been a large number of wars religiously motivated, plagues that were allowed to spread because of religious bigotry, plagues that were allowed to spread out of religiously induced ignorance, and other events that YES scripture has led to society as it is today.

Honestly I couldn't tell you if we would be in the same place if the words and thoughts of scripture (throughout I assume you are speaking of christian scripture) had never existed or for that matter hadn't risen to more prominence than any other religion in the Roman Empire. I can tell you that I think it would be a different place, I can't tell you if it would be better or worse than what we are experiencing now.

 

[it's_sam]

When i state the word "scripture" i mean the word people live in their fathers name wichever that is bible, quran, toran, etc...

 

[it's_sam]

Toran pronounced "tora"? having a brain fart.

 

[Autodidact]

I see many people in here supporting the idea there is nothing before your life and nothing after from any perception, leaving little importance for any morale acts concerning our brothers.

False. It doesn't follow that in order to deal with other people morally, I have to believe in life after death. There is no logical connection between those two things.

 

[Autodidact]

Your right, because of the people fighting for the cause of a better world and changing the system around them. Wich in most cases are on the "I believe in God(deity" side of the argument.

False. In fact, I would assert, quite the contrary. The people who have fought hardest to make the world a better place are those on the side on enlightenment values, freedom, and free-thinking. Many or possibly most of those people were and are atheists.

 

[Engyo]

Show me this society and i will do so. So far it is realy only people saying "it's not real" wich are otherwise supported by a system that had allready existed off of that foundation. Am i missing anything?

I wish you'd make up your mind; your argument has changed several times during this conversation.

 

[LuisDantas]

That is a fairly restricted worldview, Sam. Scripture isn't even all that central to religion.

 

[Autodidact]

It works as thus, the "I believe in God" side and the "what are you talking about?" side were leading the major decisions on political standing. Seeing as how the religion is important to the people and we will defend it, they have to satisfy that will. The "I think your wrong but whatever" side has no importance or influence in this debate. So lets say that the society will be attacked by another country if they devide their religions beyond that of their aggressive neighbor. Or rather you can be allowed to be any religion. Because they are considering this they know what the consequence is. So they go ahead with the plans set forth to push back the oppressors and defend their chosen rights. The battle consists of the people in that nation "I believe in God", "what are you talking about", "I think there is no God" are all now fighting for one cause that is all revolving around the one thing that you say " I dont believe in" you are involved rather you like it or not. In almost every major event or amazing deed God(deity) was involved in the persons thoughts.

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble following you. Are you saying that a belief in God is necessary to unite society against its enemies? Why? For example, what united Soviet Russia in its battle against Nazi Germany?

 

[it's_sam]

Ok if you take away "systems" and go back in time, a no system society was brutal and unfrogiving in their acts. They had no morale fiber to construct and they lived emotions like the animals. Reacting out of instinct instead of constructively "wich BTW will get you killed in construction" the end IMO does not justify the means.

 

[it's_sam]

That is a fairly restricted worldview, Sam.

By saying all words pointed in a higher direction to me is scripture is limited worldy? OHHH im sorry AND the kitchen sink!?

 

[Duck]

When i state the word "scripture" i mean the word people live in their fathers name wichever that is bible, quran, toran, etc...

Ah, so strictly Abrahamic in nature correct?

Assuming that scripture = Abrahamic religious writings aka the bible, the torah, the qur'an etc.; then yes, the INCA developed a society that was perfectly moral without benefit of scripture. Viking society was perfectly moral without benefit of scripture. Japanese society was perfectly moral without benefit of scripture. Roman society was perfectly moral without scripture.

All of these societies arose and flourished without influence from the bible, torah, or qur'an. Each had their own moral precepts, which typically included variations on 'thou shalt not steal', or murder, etc. Those precepts weren't necessarily of the same wording or nature as the ones found in Abrahamic writings, but they were present nonetheless.

 

[it's_sam]

I wish you'd make up your mind; your argument has changed several times during this conversation.

you asked me to dertermine my view on a society with no belief in anything higher then themselves. I asked you to show me that society and ill do my best.

 

[it's_sam]

Japanese society was perfectly moral without benefit of scripture. Roman society was perfectly moral without scripture.

I'm sorry do you know anything about WW2? Rome?? WHOA man talk about sociopath. Lets kill and murder for a mere laugh, then afterwerd we'll all go hop into a brothel and sleep with eachother after gorging ourselves to the point of bloated. FUN!

 

[Duck]

Ok if you take away "systems" and go back in time, a no system society was brutal and unfrogiving in their acts. They had no morale fiber to construct and they lived emotions like the animals. Reacting out of instinct instead of constructively "wich BTW will get you killed in construction" the end IMO does not justify the means.

What are you on about here? a no system society? What the heck is that supposed to mean?

 

[Engyo]

you asked me to dertermine my view on a society with no belief in anything higher then themselves.

You misread MY question. I asked you how you accounted for moral, civilized societies which developed without Abrahamic scripture; you changed your argument instead of addressing the question. Duck just rephrased it above.

 

[Engyo]

I'm sorry do you know anything about WW2? Rome?? WHOA man talk about sociopath. Lets kill and murder for a mere laugh, then afterwerd we'll all go hop into a brothel and sleep with eachother after gorging ourselves to the point of bloated. FUN!

Well, let's see; we can find many examples of European societies after Christianity doing exactly the same, which would seem to completely negate your argument. The Crusades; African colonies; slavery in the Americas; the Conquistadores; and on and on. What say you?

 

[it's_sam]

Honor they held higher then themselves and to others. This falls under defending whats right.