History Repeats Itself - Genesis 33:1,2

[Ben Masada]

When Jacob was returning from Paddan Aram, where he had spent about 20 years working for his uncle Laban, and was approaching Canaan, he was told that his brother Esau was on his way with 400 men to meet him.

Jacob got so desperately anxious for his life and the lives of his family, that he spent the whole night fighting in prayer for a solution about what to do. If we remember, when he had left Canaan, his brother had promised to kill him for having stolen his blessing of the firstborn.

As Jacob looked up and saw his brother from afar off, he decided to divide his family in three groups. The only thing in his mind was that Esau would kill them all in revenge for what had happened 20 years ago.

So, in the first group, Jacob set his maidservants with their children, so that in case they got killed, the others behind could have a chance to escape. In the second group, he set Leah with her children, perhaps to safeguard the lives of Rachel, Joseph and himself, just in case.

Fortunately, for everyone's luck, Esau had changed his mind in the course of those 20 years and nothing drastic happened to anyone. However, everyone with the minimum of commonsense can see that this attitude of Jacob's was everything but fair.

But let's see how different Jesus did to prevent History from repeating itself. The text is in Matthew 26:36-39.

Soon after the Last Supper, as he sensed arrest, he took his disciples and fled to a hiding place in the Gethsemani. At the entrance of the Garden, he left eight of the disciples and told them to watch, and took farther inside the other three disciples: Peter, James and John. Perhaps he thought, if there was a fight, at least the second group would have a chance to escape. In another place farther in, he told the three disciples to stay put and watch, while he would go deeper inside to spend some time
in prayer.

Now, I have been wondering how much of these two cases have in common. One thing we can all be certain of: Both men, Jacob and Jesus were going through the same kind of anxieties in fear for their lives. Bear in mind that the parallel between the facts within the cases is astounding. Would it be appropriate to think of the eight disciples at the entrance of the Garden as the facsimile to the maidservants of Jacob with their children? How about the three disciples in the second group meant to represent Leah with her children? And scary of all, Jesus himself for Jacob with Rachel and Joseph? Luke does say that Jesus was indeed so anxious as to sweat even drops of blood. Anyway but... I don't think either case justifies the measures taken. Both sound too unfair. Any idea out there to set my mind at easy?

Ben:

 

[IF_u_knew]

I am more amazed the more I see the these parallels between Genesis and the NT... strikingly similar, no? I do not know yet what to make of this.. other than I did notice after reading the Genesis account that Esau runs to embrace him, falls on his neck and kisses him... as does Joseph to Benjamin in Genesis 45: 14-15. I find this interesting because both accounts in Genesis involve brothers, betrayal, and the kissing and the parallels *that* has as well with the NT.

Note that in the first chapter of Matthew, in the genealogies, Jacob "begat" Judas and brethren (1:2). Judas betrays Jesus with a kiss, and Jesus has a brother named Judas (Mat 13:55) though I know it is *said* that Judas Iscariot was born of Simon AND in that account of Jesus in Matthew, they ate in the house of Simon; though, well.. there seems to be a lot of *hush hush* in the book of Acts and here is a further connection from Acts to that same chapter in Matthew that you speak of:

31Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. 32But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

Acts 5: 38 says, "37After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:"

Hmm.. maybe I was not so wrong with my speculation that Jesus and Judas were one in the same (???)

Just more ... connecting. Though no explanation for it. :no: Quite strange, Ben.

 

[Ben Masada]

I am more amazed the more I see the these parallels between Genesis and the NT... strikingly similar, no? I do not know yet what to make of this.. other than I did notice after reading the Genesis account that Esau runs to embrace him, falls on his neck and kisses him... as does Joseph to Benjamin in Genesis 45: 14-15. I find this interesting because both accounts in Genesis involve brothers, betrayal, and the kissing and the parallels *that* has as well with the NT.

Note that in the first chapter of Matthew, in the genealogies, Jacob "begat" Judas and brethren (1:2). Judas betrays Jesus with a kiss, and Jesus has a brother named Judas (Mat 13:55) though I know it is *said* that Judas Iscariot was born of Simon AND in that account of Jesus in Matthew, they ate in the house of Simon; though, well.. there seems to be a lot of *hush hush* in the book of Acts and here is a further connection from Acts to that same chapter in Matthew that you speak of:

31Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. 32But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

Acts 5: 38 says, "37After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:"

Hmm.. maybe I was not so wrong with my speculation that Jesus and Judas were one in the same (???)

Just more ... connecting. Though no explanation for it. :no: Quite strange, Ben.

Indeed Katie, these connections are really strange. I came up with this thread as I was reading about Jesus in the Gethsemani and was reminded of what Jacob did with his family before his meeting with his brother. Really amazing!

Ben:

 

[IF_u_knew]

I see it in Acts 15 as well. Judas and Silas.. *shrugs* I seem to remember you saying once that the tribe of Benjamin joined in with the house of Judah.. is that correct?

 

[Ben Masada]

I see it in Acts 15 as well. Judas and Silas.. *shrugs* I seem to remember you saying once that the tribe of Benjamin joined in with the house of Judah.. is that correct?

Right. It was by the time the Tribes splitted. But Benjamin had to give up its identity, as it mingled with Judah. The resultant Tribe which became loyal to
David became known as one Tribe called Judah. Technically, God's promise to David was of the Tribe of Judah to remain as a lamp forever in Jerusalem according to I Kings 11:36.

Ben: :yes:

 

[IF_u_knew]

You know, it does not look to me that Jacob placed himself in the back with Rachel and Joseph but rather, well look at verse 3...

And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.

Then Esau embraces him, kisses him, etc. After this, each group, in their designated order approached Esau.. handmaids and children, Leah and her children, and then Rachel and Joseph.

Anyway, Jacob seems to have positioned himself ahead of the whole group. In regards to Jesus, I would think that he certainly felt fear, but considering what it was that was to be condemned and handed over to the gentiles, he made himself the last in line of defense... not last in line to escape. This is, of course, allegorically speaking.

The Word of God, as we both know, is manifested to the world through His chosen People. The covenant made with Israel was not one of Rights, but one of Responsibility to God and His creation (mankind). Think of Israel as being the signature on the contract God gave to mankind via Noah. This was insurance so long as Israel kept God in remembrance and did not put the same yoke onto mankind.

I think that the disciples of Jesus represented those in the line of defense of the Word, sure.. and just as in the allegory, they have (generally speaking) very much fallen asleep.. ya know? Meanwhile, there are those who have been able to elevate their status behind the scenes and mankind is under a heavy yoke now. The Word, represented by Jesus, really was the last defense.. for itself. Thus, the Voice (insertions of the Tanakh into the NT; inconsistencies to point) crying out in the wilderness (the NT), next the Jewish people were placed in line,which Isaiah testifies to, and then the Tanakh with the pure Truth. It is how it worked for me; facing the truth that Matthew was not consistent and had major inconsistencies served as a stumbling block for me, then the Jewish.. and trying to understand them, and then my eyes were turned to the Tanakh.. the pure Word. Now, i look at the NT and see more and more of what it all is that is going on.

Paul is representative of ones *ahem* who mixed themselves in with the Jewish people and are using the Jewish to elevate their positions on this earth; yes, at the expense of not only the Gentiles, but the at the expense of those who are truly Jewish. They did not *have* to mix in the with the Jewish, Ben.. they chose to and it is written out in front of us that they are not so loyal to the tribe of Judah.

"Technically, God's promise to David was of the Tribe of Judah" God's promise was TO THE LINE of David because they, despite their "flaws" LOVED THE LORD THEIR GOD WITH ALL THEIR HEART!!! God knew this and that is why He kept that testimony in their hands; knowing that another would betray Him and set mankind under a heavy burden they were never meant to be under. Most definitely, it would be the ones who joined in with the line that God chose to be the keepers of the Truth. They would be the ones as well to discredit "their own people" ... and betray them, so as to continue to exploit mankind for their own purposes. Promises of everlasting life and threats of punishment have done well to keep people usable; under bondange...

So, Jacob put himself in front when it came to his brother, yes; Jesus (representing the Word) put himself last in line, for this confrontation is under different circumstances and has not only to do with bloodline, and very much to do with all of mankind. Make sense? Just thoughts.. all subjected to scrutiny of course. But it brings together both what I am seeing going on in the world even now and brings together (in my head anyway) the whole of the Bible and suddenly, the truth (which I already knew, but could not quite get specifics on) of Paul is jumping out all over the place in front of my eyes. :yes:

 

[Ben Masada]

You know, it does not look to me that Jacob placed himself in the back with Rachel and Joseph but rather, well look at verse 3...

And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.

Then Esau embraces him, kisses him, etc. After this, each group, in their designated order approached Esau.. handmaids and children, Leah and her children, and then Rachel and Joseph.

Anyway, Jacob seems to have positioned himself ahead of the whole group. In regards to Jesus, I would think that he certainly felt fear, but considering what it was that was to be condemned and handed over to the gentiles, he made himself the last in line of defense... not last in line to escape. This is, of course, allegorically speaking.

The Word of God, as we both know, is manifested to the world through His chosen People. The covenant made with Israel was not one of Rights, but one of Responsibility to God and His creation (mankind). Think of Israel as being the signature on the contract God gave to mankind via Noah. This was insurance so long as Israel kept God in remembrance and did not put the same yoke onto mankind.

I think that the disciples of Jesus represented those in the line of defense of the Word, sure.. and just as in the allegory, they have (generally speaking) very much fallen asleep.. ya know? Meanwhile, there are those who have been able to elevate their status behind the scenes and mankind is under a heavy yoke now. The Word, represented by Jesus, really was the last defense.. for itself. Thus, the Voice (insertions of the Tanakh into the NT; inconsistencies to point) crying out in the wilderness (the NT), next the Jewish people were placed in line,which Isaiah testifies to, and then the Tanakh with the pure Truth. It is how it worked for me; facing the truth that Matthew was not consistent and had major inconsistencies served as a stumbling block for me, then the Jewish.. and trying to understand them, and then my eyes were turned to the Tanakh.. the pure Word. Now, i look at the NT and see more and more of what it all is that is going on.

Paul is representative of ones *ahem* who mixed themselves in with the Jewish people and are using the Jewish to elevate their positions on this earth; yes, at the expense of not only the Gentiles, but the at the expense of those who are truly Jewish. They did not *have* to mix in the with the Jewish, Ben.. they chose to and it is written out in front of us that they are not so loyal to the tribe of Judah.

"Technically, God's promise to David was of the Tribe of Judah" God's promise was TO THE LINE of David because they, despite their "flaws" LOVED THE LORD THEIR GOD WITH ALL THEIR HEART!!! God knew this and that is why He kept that testimony in their hands; knowing that another would betray Him and set mankind under a heavy burden they were never meant to be under. Most definitely, it would be the ones who joined in with the line that God chose to be the keepers of the Truth. They would be the ones as well to discredit "their own people" ... and betray them, so as to continue to exploit mankind for their own purposes. Promises of everlasting life and threats of punishment have done well to keep people usable; under bondange...

So, Jacob put himself in front when it came to his brother, yes; Jesus (representing the Word) put himself last in line, for this confrontation is under different circumstances and has not only to do with bloodline, and very much to do with all of mankind. Make sense? Just thoughts.. all subjected to scrutiny of course. But it brings together both what I am seeing going on in the world even now and brings together (in my head anyway) the whole of the Bible and suddenly, the truth (which I already knew, but could not quite get specifics on) of Paul is jumping out all over the place in front of my eyes. :yes:

Well Katie, now it's your turn to catch me in a mistake. Indeed, in Genesis 33:3 Jacob did pass ahead of the three groups to be the first to meet Esau. In the case of Jesus, this set himself for Rachel with Joseph.

Ben:

 

[rusra02]

Far from fleeing to the garden of gethsemane, Jesus knew his betrayer would lead his enemies to him there. A week in advance, Jesus told his disciples he would be killed at Jerusalem.
To prepare them for what lay ahead, Jesus took the 12 off privately and told them: “Here we are, advancing up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and will deliver him to men of the nations, and they will make fun of him and will spit upon him and scourge him and kill him, but three days later he will rise.” (Matthew 20:17-19)

Far from expecting his disciples to defend him, he told the mob who arrested him to let them go, since they were seeking Jesus. Throughout his ordeal, he maintained a courageous demeanor. He knew it was Jehovah's will for him to sacrifice his life (John 3:16)
As the promised Messiah, Jesus knew what to expect. He was aware of the many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that foretold in detail the Messiah’s suffering and death. (Isaiah 53:3-7, 12; Daniel 9:26 Thus, on Nisan 14, 33 C.E., he willingly gave his soul in our behalf. (John 10:11) There is no greater act of courage and love then what he did for us.

 

[3.14]

sorry to disapoint you but history repeats itself almost daily most of the time were just not seeing it and when we do we get a deja vu feeling, by comparing these story's your actualy seeking the deja vu feeling

 

[S-word]

Far from fleeing to the garden of gethsemane, Jesus knew his betrayer would lead his enemies to him there. A week in advance, Jesus told his disciples he would be killed at Jerusalem.

To prepare them for what lay ahead, Jesus took the 12 off privately and told them: “Here we are, advancing up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and will deliver him to men of the nations, and they will make fun of him and will spit upon him and scourge him and kill him, but three days later he will rise.” (Matthew 20:17-19)

Far from expecting his disciples to defend him, he told the mob who arrested him to let them go, since they were seeking Jesus. Throughout his ordeal, he maintained a courageous demeanor. He knew it was Jehovah's will for him to sacrifice his life (John 3:16)
As the promised Messiah, Jesus knew what to expect. He was aware of the many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that foretold in detail the Messiah’s suffering and death. (Isaiah 53:3-7, 12; Daniel 9:26 Thus, on Nisan 14, 33 C.E., he willingly gave his soul in our behalf. (John 10:11) There is no greater act of courage and love then what he did for us.

Well put my friend. I find absolutely no similarity between the return of Jacob to the country of his inhetitance, with that of Jesus in the Garden. I believe that Jacob knew that his brother had no intention of killing his entire family, but feared for his own life, and for this reason he sent the two groups ahead with gifts to soften the heart of his twin brother Esau before he himself, had to confront him.

Jacob was attempting to save his own life, and although Jesus sweated tears of blood in fear of his anticipated death, he would do nothing to avoid or attempt to buy his way out of the impending threat to his life.

 

[IF_u_knew]

by comparing these story's your actualy seeking the deja vu feeling

Perhaps you would not mind elaborating on this. The fact is, is that many of the stories given in the gospel accounts parallel the stories in the Tanakh. The story of the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4 is strikingly similar to the account of Jacob meeting Rachel for the first time, at the same well in fact... Genesis 29; just to name another example. I do not see that seeking these things is seeking a feeling, but rather seeking the knowledge since there must be a reason for this, no? And personally, one does not HAVE to seek them out if they already are very familiar with the stories in the beginning.. the similarities pop out. Just my thoughts on it, from having noticed them myself. It was not a feeling I was seeking, and in fact, it was not the similarities I was seeking.. they are *just* there and I personally do not subscribe to coincidences of that nature.

 

[S-word]

Perhaps you would not mind elaborating on this. The fact is, is that many of the stories given in the gospel accounts parallel the stories in the Tanakh. The story of the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4 is strikingly similar to the account of Jacob meeting Rachel for the first time, at the same well in fact... Genesis 29; just to name another example. I do not see that seeking these things is seeking a feeling, but rather seeking the knowledge since there must be a reason for this, no? And personally, one does not HAVE to seek them out if they already are very familiar with the stories in the beginning.. the similarities pop out. Just my thoughts on it, from having noticed them myself. It was not a feeling I was seeking, and in fact, it was not the similarities I was seeking.. they are *just* there and I personally do not subscribe to coincidences of that nature.

Where is the similarity to Jesus, who was not looking for a wife, meeting the Samaritan woman, who had five previous husbands, not including the sixth man with whom she was currently living, and Jacob who met the virgin Rachel, for whom he rolled the rock from the well and watered her flock, then kissed her and cried for joy, and desired to marry her. Where is the Striking similarity other than the fact that they both met a woman at a well, a similarity that would have occured millions of times throughout history?


It would have been better that you had used the story of Abrahams servant meeting Rebecca at the well, at least both he and Jesus asked the woman that they had met at the well for a drink of water, which would have been somewhat more similar than the example used here in your post.

 

[IF_u_knew]

Where is the similarity to Jesus, who was not looking for a wife, meeting the Samaritan woman, who had five previous husbands, not including the sixth man with whom she was currently living, and Jacob who met the virgin Rachel, for whom he rolled the rock from the well and watered her flock, then kissed her and cried for joy, and desired to marry her. Where is the Striking similarity other than the fact that they both met a woman at a well, a similarity that would have occured millions of times throughout history?


It would have been better that you had used the story of Abrahams servant meeting Rebecca at the well, at least both he and Jesus asked the woman that they had met at the well for a drink of water, which would have been somewhat more similar than the example used here in your post.

Very good on that call. I am a bit more drawn to the stories of Jacob; though I actually also see the similarities between John 4 and I Samuel 1 (no need to say you do not). The only thing I can say is that I guess we are reading them differently. I read through my experiences rather than just the words that are there. Knowing the full story of Rachel and Jacob so well (I can't read the last half of Genesis enough) perhaps also factors into why I would find it strikingly similar. *shrugs*

 

[3.14]

45 3 7 12 38 2 89
now pick a number, any number

 

[Ben Masada]

Far from fleeing to the garden of gethsemane, Jesus knew his betrayer would lead his enemies to him there. A week in advance, Jesus told his disciples he would be killed at Jerusalem.
To prepare them for what lay ahead, Jesus took the 12 off privately and told them: “Here we are, advancing up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and will deliver him to men of the nations, and they will make fun of him and will spit upon him and scourge him and kill him, but three days later he will rise.” (Matthew 20:17-19)

Far from expecting his disciples to defend him, he told the mob who arrested him to let them go, since they were seeking Jesus. Throughout his ordeal, he maintained a courageous demeanor. He knew it was Jehovah's will for him to sacrifice his life (John 3:16)
As the promised Messiah, Jesus knew what to expect. He was aware of the many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that foretold in detail the Messiah’s suffering and death. (Isaiah 53:3-7, 12; Daniel 9:26 Thus, on Nisan 14, 33 C.E., he willingly gave his soul in our behalf. (John 10:11) There is no greater act of courage and love then what he did for us.

If Jesus was ready for the cross a week in advance, why would he try to persuade God to think about something else the night before? Had he changed his mind? Why would he quit his prayers with the statement, "be thy will done, not mine?" Was he trying to make God feel bad that He was forcing Jesus into something against his will? That's exactly what he let God and the whole world know that he took the way of the cross against his will.

Ben:

 

[S-word]

If Jesus was ready for the cross a week in advance, why would he try to persuade God to think about something else the night before? Had he changed his mind? Why would he quit his prayers with the statement, "be thy will done, not mine?" Was he trying to make God feel bad that He was forcing Jesus into something against his will? That's exactly what he let God and the whole world know that he took the way of the cross against his will.

Ben:

I am assuming that you were once an obedient child to your parent.
Was everything that you did in obedience to your father agreeable to you, or was it that your will to prove your obedience, was greater than your will to go against the will of your Father? Obedience in such a case is the greater, for what merit is there in being obedient to a command that one is happy to obey?

 

[Ben Masada]

I am assuming that you were once an obedient child to your parent.
Was everything that you did in obedience to your father agreeable to you, or was it that your will to prove your obedience, was greater than your will to go against the will of your Father? Obedience in such a case is the greater, for what merit is there in being obedient to a command that one is happy to obey?

Well, I am glad to say that you have got a point in there somewhere. In that case, the problem is not with Jesus but with Christians who promote the cliche that Jesus willingly put his life down because nobody would take it, when the opposite was true that when he sensed arrest he fled to the Gethsemani for his life, and spent a few hours urging with God to change His mind and take that cup away from him.

Ben:

 

[S-word]

Well, I am glad to say that you have got a point in there somewhere. In that case, the problem is not with Jesus but with Christians who promote the cliche that Jesus willingly put his life down because nobody would take it, when the opposite was true that when he sensed arrest he fled to the Gethsemani for his life, and spent a few hours urging with God to change His mind and take that cup away from him.

Ben:

What! And you think that Jesus who told Judas to go and do that which had to be done to fulfill God's purpose, didn't indicate to him where he could be found?
Nah matey, Jesus was well aware that Judas would know where he was, and he was praying to his father to remove the cup of sorrow and pain that was before him, but if not, and it was the will of our father that he should remain obedient even unto death, then he would and did, willingly obey.

Acts 2: 23, In accordance with his own plan God had already decided that Jesus should be handed over (to you Jews); and you had him killed by letting the sinful (Romans) crucify him. No Christian, if given the authority to descend through time and stop Judas, would dare to do so, and are therefore deserving of the same punishment that they would impose on Judas. But even if they were foolish enough to attempt to do so, they would have been rebuked by their Lord as was Peter, when he suggested that Jesus would not have to die, because it was this very purpose that he came into the world of that time.

 

[IF_u_knew]

45 3 7 12 38 2 89
now pick a number, any number

*shrugs* ok.. 6.

 

[S-word]

Very good on that call. I am a bit more drawn to the stories of Jacob; though I actually also see the similarities between John 4 and I Samuel 1 (no need to say you do not). The only thing I can say is that I guess we are reading them differently. I read through my experiences rather than just the words that are there. Knowing the full story of Rachel and Jacob so well (I can't read the last half of Genesis enough) perhaps also factors into why I would find it strikingly similar. *shrugs*

The fact that you can see striking similatities between John 4 and 1 Samuel 1, would seem to show that you are not reading the words of the Bible, but are reading into it, something that is not only not there, but was never meant to be.