Hitchens and Dawkins: Quran

[paarsurrey]

Hitchens mentions about Quran at following places in his book “God is not great” :

“Koran and, 128–29
miracles and, 141–43, 148–49
rational resistance and, 254–55,
259–60, 262–64, 267–70, 272–75
reformism in, 136, 175
and relationship between morality
and religion, 188–91, 206, 209–10,
212
revelation arguments and, 97–101,
103
slavery and, 166–67, 173, 176–78
totalitarianism and, 233–47, 249–52”

In all such places in his book Hitchens gives a blanket statement about Quran and hence his objections are pointless and superfluous.

 

[jarofthoughts]

In all such places in his book Hitchens gives a blanket statement about Quran and hence his objections are pointless and superfluous.

Not if his statements are correct.

 

[paarsurrey]

Not if his statements are correct.

Then please prove the correctiveness of his statements.
Any atheist please

 

[jarofthoughts]

Then please prove the correctiveness of his statements.
Any atheist please

He has made his own justifications in his book, and, I might add, much more eloquently than I could.
Go read the book.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hitchens, it seems; his endeavor was to create a wedge or widen the differences between Muslims and Jews and others. I don’t defend the prevailing political situation existing between the Arabs and the Jews, a recent phenomenon; but since it is a lone incidence where Hitchens gives a reference of a verse from Quran, at other places he simply gives his fleeting remarks about Quran/Islam/Muhammad and does not substantiate them in his book “God is not great”; I will defend that.

However, I will restrict myself in defending Quran/Islam/Muhammad; and I won’t defend the present political posture or hostilities between Arabs and Jews.

I first give here the relevant quote from Hitchens, the whole passage of it; those who want more could extend it to any number of passages they like from the online book, easily.


“Even though sura 5.60 of the Koran condemns particularly Jews but also other unbelievers as having been turned into pigs and monkeys—a very intense theme in recent Salafist Muslim preaching—and the Koran describes the flesh of swine as unclean or even “abominable,” Muslims appear to see nothing ironic in the adoption of this uniquely Jewish taboo. Real horror of the porcine is manifest all over the Islamic world. One good instance would be the continued prohibition of George Orwell’s Animal Farm, one of the most charming and useful fables of modern times, of the reading of which Muslim schoolchildren are deprived. I have perused some of the solemn prohibition orders written by Arab education ministries, which are so stupid that they fail to notice the evil and dictatorial role played by the pigs in the story itself.” Page-37: Chapter Three.

My focus is the portion “Even though sura 5.60 of the Koran condemns particularly Jews but also other unbelievers as having been turned into pigs and monkeys”.

Quran does not condemn Jews and or other disbelievers generally. The verses are specific for the Jews and Meccans of Muhammad’s time, who were involved in misdeeds; the later attacked aggressively Muhammad and his companions at Medina and the former supported them, while Jews were under a treaty with Muhammad to support him and his companions.

 

[paarsurrey]

Next I post the text of verse 5:60/61 from Quran and some verses preceding and following for the context, referenced by Hitchens.


[5:55] O ye who believe! whoso among you turns back from his religion, then let it be known that in his stead Allah will soon bring a people whom He will love and who will love Him, and who will be kind and humble towards believers, hard and firm against disbelievers. They will strive in the cause of Allah and will not fear the reproach of a faultfinder. That is Allah’s grace; He bestows it upon whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is Bountiful, All- Knowing.
[5:56] Your friend is only Allah and His Messenger and the believers who observe Prayer and pay the Zakat and worship God alone.
[5:57] And those who take Allah and His Messenger and the believers for friends should rest assured that it is the party of Allah that must triumph.
[5:58] O ye who believe! take not those for friends who make a jest and sport of your religion from among those who were given the Book before you, and the disbelievers. And fear Allah if you are believers;
[5:59] And who, when you call people to Prayer, take it as jest and sport. That is because they are a people who do not understand.
[5:60] Say, ‘O People of the Book! do you find fault with us because we believe in Allah and what has been sent down to us and what was sent down previously? Or is it because most of you are disobedient to God?’
[5:61] Say, ‘Shall I inform you of those whose reward with Allah is worse than that? They are those whom Allah has cursed and on whom His wrath has fallen and of whom He has made apes and swine and who worship the Evil One. These indeed are in a worse plight, and farther astray from the right path.
[5:62] And when they come to you, they say, ‘We believe,’ while they enter with unbelief and go out therewith; and Allah knows best what they conceal.
[5:63] And thou seest many of them hastening towards sin and transgression and the eating of things forbidden. Evil indeed is that which they practise.
[5:64] Why do not the divines and those learned in the Law prohibit them from uttering falsehood and eating things forbidden? Evil indeed is that which they do.
[5:65] And the Jews say, ‘The hand of Allah is tied up.’ Their own hands shall be tied up and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are wide open; He spends how He pleases. And what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will most surely increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief. And We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they kindle a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. And they strive to create disorder in the earth, and Allah loves not those who create disorder.
[5:66] And if the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We would surely have removed from them their evils and We would surely have admitted them into Gardens of Bliss.
[5:67] And if they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and what has been now sent down to them from their Lord, they would, surely, have eaten of good things from above them and from under their feet. Among them are a people who are moderate; but many of them — evil indeed is that which they do.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

For Arabic etymology and more details one may like to read the following.

The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran

 

[jarofthoughts]

Quran does not condemn Jews and or other disbelievers generally. The verses are specific for the Jews and Meccans of Muhammad’s time, who were involved in misdeeds; the later attacked aggressively Muhammad and his companions at Medina and the former supported them, while Jews were under a treaty with Muhammad to support him and his companions.

Since you've now (finally) done what you should have done in the first place, I'll take the time to read what you have posted.

I see nothing in the Quran text that indicates that this is not a general condemnation of all who are critical of of Islam or that it is meant for that specific historic context.
Rather it appears as if the condemnation is general and meant for all who do not show respect for Islam and it mentions Jews and Christians specifically while also including other 'unbelievers'.
Of course, while the historical context could have been as you claim, you will find many who will take such a context to be just as valid today, thus invalidating your position, or, if one is to interpret it in the opposite direction, that while it was wrong to mock Islam back in the day, that that was ancient history and that it is now perfectly fine to mock Islam.
One cannot have one's cake and eat it too; either the statements are universal and still apply, or they applied only in that time for that specific case.

Which would you say it is?

 

[A Troubled Man]

Hitchens, it seems; his endeavor was to create a wedge or widen the differences between Muslims and Jews and others.

LOL! It's highly unlikely Hitchens could have endeavored to do what the Jews and Muslims have already accomplished in spades over centuries of hatred and intolerance towards each other simply due to their religious beliefs.

 

[McBell]

um...
Can someone please tell me where the goalposts are?
paarsurrey has moved them so much, I have completely lost track of where they went.

 

[paarsurrey]

um...
Can someone please tell me where the goalposts are?
paarsurrey has moved them so much, I have completely lost track of where they went.

The goal posts defined

1. Christopher Hitchens had no deep study of religion
2. as is evident from his casual remarks about Quran which cannot be substantiated from a specific verse of Quran
3. seen from its text and from its context
4. and further refuted in other chapters and the whole Quran
So, all Hitchens’ claims about Quran are just superfluous.

This is to summarize, for details please refer to my following posts in this thread.

#4 , #5, #10 , #14, #16, #18, #20 , #28 , #32, #34 , #36, #37,

 

[jarofthoughts]

1. Christopher Hitchens had no deep study of religion

Whether true or not, this is irrelevant to the actual arguments he made.

2. as is evident from his casual remarks about Quran which cannot be substantiated from a specific verse of Quran

You have so far failed to show that this is so.

3. seen from its text and from its context

And this.

4. and further refuted in other chapters and the whole Quran

And this.

So, all Hitchens’ claims about Quran are just superfluous.

Which, I must repeat, you have failed to show.

 

[paarsurrey]

I again quote the verses from Quran and now I have coloured the words/sentences in magenta which hint that in these verses only the belligerent Jews and Meccans have been specifically mentioned who were at war with Muhammad and who had broken the treaties they had signed/accorded with Muhammad. It is not general for the Jews and infidels of later times after Muhammad.

[5:55] O ye who believe! whoso among you turns back from his religion, then let it be known that in his stead Allah will soon bring a people whom He will love and who will love Him, and who will be kind and humble towards believers, hard and firm against disbelievers. They will strive in the cause of Allah and will not fear the reproach of a faultfinder. That is Allah’s grace; He bestows it upon whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is Bountiful, All- Knowing.
[5:56] Your friend is only Allah and His Messenger and the believers who observe Prayer and pay the Zakat and worship God alone.
[5:57] And those who take Allah and His Messenger and the believers for friends should rest assured that it is the party of Allah that must triumph.
[5:58] O ye who believe! take not those for friends who make a jest and sport of your religion from among those who were given the Book before you, and the disbelievers. And fear Allah if you are believers;
[5:59] And who, when you call people to Prayer, take it as jest and sport. That is because they are a people who do not understand.
[5:60] Say, ‘O People of the Book! do you find fault with us because we believe in Allah and what has been sent down to us and what was sent down previously? Or is it because most of you are disobedient to God?’
[5:61] Say, ‘Shall I inform you of those whose reward with Allah is worse than that? They are those whom Allah has cursed and on whom His wrath has fallen and of whom He has made apes and swine and who worship the Evil One. These indeed are in a worse plight, and farther astray from the right path.
[5:62] And when they come to you, they say, ‘We believe,’ while they enter with unbelief and go out therewith; and Allah knows best what they conceal.
[5:63] And thou seest many of them hastening towards sin and transgression and the eating of things forbidden. Evil indeed is that which they practise.
[5:64] Why do not the divines and those learned in the Law prohibit them from uttering falsehood and eating things forbidden? Evil indeed is that which they do.
[5:65] And the Jews say, ‘The hand of Allah is tied up.’ Their own hands shall be tied up and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are wide open; He spends how He pleases. And what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will most surely increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief. And We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they kindle a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. And they strive to create disorder in the earth, and Allah loves not those who create disorder.
[5:66] And if the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We would surely have removed from them their evils and We would surely have admitted them into Gardens of Bliss.
[5:67] And if they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and what has been now sent down to them from their Lord, they would, surely, have eaten of good things from above them and from under their feet. Among them are a people who are moderate; but many of them — evil indeed is that which they do.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

For Arabic etymology and more details one may like to read the following.

The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran
The Holy Quran

 

[jarofthoughts]

I again quote the verses from Quran and now I have coloured the words/sentences in magenta which hint that in these verses only the belligerent Jews and Meccans have been specifically mentioned who were at war with Muhammad and who had broken the treaties they had signed/accorded with Muhammad. It is not general for the Jews and infidels of later times after Muhammad.

And again, I don't see the text indicating that at all.

 

[paarsurrey]

[5:65]" And the Jews say, ‘The hand of Allah is tied up.’ Their own hands shall be tied up and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are wide open; He spends how He pleases. And what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will most surely increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief. And We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they kindle a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. And they strive to create disorder in the earth, and Allah loves not those who create disorder."

Even the word war is clearly mentioned in the context verses.

 

[paarsurrey]

I see not many atheists have defended the stance of Christopher Hitchens that Quran teaches of hatred of Jews generally and this shows they agree with me that the verse referenced and the context verses are specific for the belligerent Jews in Muhammad's time. Hitchens was wrong.

 

[cablescavenger]

The goal posts defined

1. Christopher Hitchens had no deep study of religion
2. as is evident from his casual remarks about Quran which cannot be substantiated from a specific verse of Quran
3. seen from its text and from its context
4. and further refuted in other chapters and the whole Quran
So, all Hitchens’ claims about Quran are just superfluous.

This is to summarize, for details please refer to my following posts in this thread.

#4 , #5, #10 , #14, #16, #18, #20 , #28 , #32, #34 , #36, #37,

You don't have to sleep with a crack whore to know she is a crack whore.
Why do you suppose Hitchen's who was already familiar with the religion had to go into any more depth?
It would not change his opinion.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I see not many atheists have defended the stance of Christopher Hitchens that Quran teaches of hatred of Jews generally and this shows they agree with me that the verse referenced and the context verses are specific for the belligerent Jews in Muhammad's time. Hitchens was wrong.

Just because people give up on taking you seriously doesn't mean that they think you are right.
I've had to literarily chase you for several pages of nonsense posts to make you actually state your case, and when you do, the argumentation is so thin that anyone can see through it.

You're wrong mate, and if you don't see why you have no case here, I really can't help you.
I've tried for several pages now and I'm done with this.

 

[paarsurrey]

You don't have to sleep with a crack whore to know she is a crack whore.
Why do you suppose Hitchen's who was already familiar with the religion had to go into any more depth?
It would not change his opinion.

So, Hitchens preferred to remain shallow and did not go deep in any religion; and yet he spoke against Quran. He only plagiarized from different anti-Quran/Islam/Muhammad websites; and that was the sum-total of his knowledge about Quran.

I think you agree with me here. Do you? Please

 

[paarsurrey]

[5:65]" And the Jews say, ‘The hand of Allah is tied up.’ Their own hands shall be tied up and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are wide open; He spends how He pleases. And what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will most surely increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief. And We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they kindle a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. And they strive to create disorder in the earth, and Allah loves not those who create disorder."

Even the word war is clearly mentioned in the context verses.

Further; Quran is very tolerant and treats the believers and non-believers like Jews, Christians and the Sabians with justice and is even handed with all; it is very much mentioned in the same chapter:

[5:70] Surely, those who have believed, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians — whoso believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online


Jews of the time of Muhammad were belligerent; they broke the treaty they had signed with Muhammad and were at war with him, hence, they had to suffer for their evil deeds.

The teaching was therefore specific for Jews of the time of Muhammad and is not to be taken as general and for all times.

Hitchens is definitely wrong

 

[paarsurrey]

Quran is very tolerant and treats the believers and non-believers like Jews, Christians and the Sabians with justice and is even handed with all.

Whoever does good deeds is appreciated equally; just belonging to a tribe or a religion brings no good.

There is no bias against Jews; Hitchens is wrong