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Hitchens surprisingly misunderstands Palin's conservative appeal

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hello everybody,

As I got my latest Newsweek issue with Sarah Palin on the cover and I expected the usual hit piece on her. Jon Meacham was predictable in comparing Palin to the 'extremist' Goldwater that even Nixon distanced himself from (if, for a second, Meacham thinks Nixon was a conservative then he is more clueless that I previously thought).

Evan Thomas's piece was even more predictable as he attempted to paint Obama as trying to be bipartisan and centrist as compared to the right-wing extremism of Palin.

But then I saw the next Palin article was by Christopher Hitchens. This, I thought it, would be a good article. Even if I didn't agree with Hitchens on every issue I believed he offered some fresh and rather unoriginal political analysis.

But I was sorely disappointed. Here is the money quote:

The Palin problem, then, might be that she cynically incites a crowd that she has no real intention of pleasing. If she were ever to get herself to the nation's capital, the teabaggers would be just as much on the outside as they are now, and would simply have been the instruments that helped get her elected.

I had to reread this over a couple of times. I would have thought that Hitchens would know that conservatism isn't about using the government to give out goodies to political supporters. This is actually why a lot of people join the conservative side; they are disgusted at how the politicians use the government to reward their generous supporters.

Now, to a lot of people on this forum government is God and to reject the benevolent hand of Big Brother is become a heretic. But Hitchens seems to believe that conservatives are devotees in the same Leviathan that has destroyed countless lives.

I found it quite astonishing that Hitchens had misread Palin's appeal so much. Her appeal does indeed make no sense looked at through the prism of big government liberalism. But her appeal comes from the exact opposite perspective. It is from the perspective that the vast majority of people don't need to rely on government and that government most often screws things up (current financial situation) than provides actual solutions.
 

Zephyr

Moved on
Please, please let Sarah Palin become a bigger figure in Conservative American politics, if only to snuff out that wretched ideology for good.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I had to reread this over a couple of times. I would have thought that Hitchens would know that conservatism isn't about using the government to give out goodies to political supporters. This is actually why a lot of people join the conservative side; they are disgusted at how the politicians use the government to reward their generous supporters.

"Conservative" is almost synonymous with "Republican" these days. All politicians try to reward their best supporters, but republicans are the most religious about doing it. I'm really now sure how you could miss the fact that it's republicans who tend to try to please the big corporations the most. I guess you probably missed how a lot of Dubya's friends and supporters made a good bit of money off of some wars he started.

I found it quite astonishing that Hitchens had misread Palin's appeal so much. Her appeal does indeed make no sense looked at through the prism of big government liberalism. But her appeal comes from the exact opposite perspective. It is from the perspective that the vast majority of people don't need to rely on government and that government most often screws things up (current financial situation) than provides actual solutions.

So, what you're saying is that the supporters of Palin think that government just screws things up and that the government is basically bad and evil, and so they want to elect their person into that government, so that somehow...it will cease to be evil and bad and it will stop screwing things up?
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi mball,

I'm really now sure how you could miss the fact that it's republicans who tend to try to please the big corporations the most.

Could you be more specific? Why did Wall-Street support Obama over McCain in terms of political contributions if the Republican Party pleases big corporations the most? Why is GE getting billions of dollars in stimulus money if Republicans are the ones that please corporations the most?

So, what you're saying is that the supporters of Palin think that government just screws things up and that the government is basically bad and evil, and so they want to elect their person into that government, so that somehow...it will cease to be evil and bad and it will stop screwing things up?

Why is that so hard to understand? The government shouldn't be owning banks, the loan industry, car companies and the health insurance industry. We are seeing that failing before are very eyes. Palin represents the 'extreme' political beliefs that the government shouldn't be doing those things. The funny thing is, the Gallup poll shows Obama at 48% approval, liberals can't see how Palin could tap into anti-government sentiment. Not the smartest bunch.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Joe, are you seriously suggesting that Obama is a left winger on most issues? At least, when he's not being a right winger on issues such as warrantless wiretaps or CIA kidnappings? If so, could you please list some of Obama's left wing positions for us? Or are you, like FOX News, confused about Obama's centrist positions on most issues?
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Hi mball,



Could you be more specific? Why did Wall-Street support Obama over McCain in terms of political contributions if the Republican Party pleases big corporations the most? Why is GE getting billions of dollars in stimulus money if Republicans are the ones that please corporations the most?

Who said Wall Street supported Obama?

Not that it matters. This whole comment misses the point. First, it's not like Obama is that far from being a Republican. Second, the main point is that, while Democrats do it, too, pleasing big corporations is more of a Republican trait in general.

It's kind of like there are some guys who talk about their feelings and are more into connecting with a woman emotionally rather than physically, but all in all those are female traits in general.

Why is that so hard to understand? The government shouldn't be owning banks, the loan industry, car companies and the health insurance industry.

Who said they should own any of those things other than the health insurance industry? You seem to be making the common conservative error of blowing things out of proportion and throwing in things that aren't even true to support your points.

And why shouldn't the government own the health insurance industry? Should it also not own the police departments, fire departments, water supply, etc.?

We are seeing that failing before are very eyes.

Um...that's not because the government owns them. First, the government doesn't own any of those industries. Second, the banks/loaning firms were tanking before they got government help, and would have gotten even worse had they not gotten government help. Third, the health insurance industry is failing, you're right, but it's not even close to being anything like owned by the government. That means it's failing as a capitalist industry, which is why it should not remain so.

Palin represents the 'extreme' political beliefs that the government shouldn't be doing those things. The funny thing is, the Gallup poll shows Obama at 48% approval, liberals can't see how Palin could tap into anti-government sentiment. Not the smartest bunch.

Palin represents a lot more than that, but that's enough right there. If you don't realize that no one is advocating for the government take over of any of those industries other than healthcare (and even then, a lot of people aren't advocating a government take-over there), then you need to do some reading.

Oh, I can see how Palin could tap into anti-government sentiment. The same way Faux News taps into it, by telling lies and using completely misleading facts in scare tactics, which are apparently working on you. So, it would seem that it's actually you who is part of the "not the smartest bunch".
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Sunstone,

Joe, are you seriously suggesting that Obama is a left winger on most issues? At least, when he's not being a right winger on issues such as warrantless wiretaps or CIA kidnappings? If so, could you please list some of Obama's left wing positions for us? Or are you, like FOX News, confused about Obama's centrist positions on most issues?

Yes:

1. Government owning car companies
2. Government running the mortgage industry
3. Government running the student loan industry
4. Government monitoring the energy output of every American (cap and trade)
5. Government running the helthcare industry

If these are centrist political positions then you are a tad right of Lenin and Stalin.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Hi Sunstone,



Yes:

1. Government owning car companies
2. Government running the mortgage industry
3. Government running the student loan industry
4. Government monitoring the energy output of every American (cap and trade)
5. Government running the helthcare industry

If these are centrist political positions then you are a tad right of Lenin and Stalin.

Great. Now all you have to do is show where Obama advocated any of that. The easy part is throwing out unfounded claims. The hard part is then backing up those claims and making them founded.

I'll give you #4, but then I don't see how that's anything but smart. The rest need to have evidence behind them.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi mball,

Who said Wall Street supported Obama?

Wall Street said that with their money:

Presidential Candidate Comparison: Top Industries, 2008 Cycle | OpenSecrets

So, big business supports the Democratic Party over the Republican Party.

Not that it matters. This whole comment misses the point. First, it's not like Obama is that far from being a Republican. Second, the main point is that, while Democrats do it, too, pleasing big corporations is more of a Republican trait in general.

LOL! Look at the actual evidence. What is the stimulus doing? Doling out billions to corporations. And this is the biggest stimulus in our history. So, no party rewards corprorations like Obama has.

Who said they should own any of those things other than the health insurance industry? You seem to be making the common conservative error of blowing things out of proportion and throwing in things that aren't even true to support your points.

Back to the real world, the government owns AIG and GM. This is actually happening.

And why shouldn't the government own the health insurance industry? Should it also not own the police departments, fire departments, water supply, etc.?

Well, this is an argument for another thread. The point is a lot of Americans don't want the government to run the healthcare industry. Thus, Palin tapping into this sentiment is anything but extreme.

Um...that's not because the government owns them. First, the government doesn't own any of those industries. Second, the banks/loaning firms were tanking before they got government help, and would have gotten even worse had they not gotten government help. Third, the health insurance industry is failing, you're right, but it's not even close to being anything like owned by the government. That means it's failing as a capitalist industry, which is why it should not remain so.

The government owns AIG and GM. This is a fact.
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
LOL! Look at the actual evidence. What is the stimulus doing? Doling out billions to corporations. And this is the biggest stimulus in our history. So, no party rewards corprorations like Obama has.
This tells me that Obama is a conservative... I dunno what it tells you O_O.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
LOL! Look at the actual evidence. What is the stimulus doing? Doling out billions to corporations. And this is the biggest stimulus in our history. So, no party rewards corprorations like Obama has.

You've got problems if you think that's evidence. Are you trying to say that the bailout was Obama's idea? Did you just forget that it was Bush who pushed for it and got it most of the way through before Obama took office?

Back to the real world, the government owns AIG and GM. This is actually happening.

:facepalm:
Seriously, I like your first suggestion. Let's get back to the real world. When you're ready to do that, let me know.

Well, this is an argument for another thread. The point is a lot of Americans don't want the government to run the healthcare industry. Thus, Palin tapping into this sentiment is anything but extreme.

I think you'd be surprised at how many Americans do want the government to run healthcare. Just because they're not our screaming at people and waving guns around trying to get noticed doesn't mean they're not there. So, yes, I'm sure Palin will get some support from the too-far-gone conservative community that buys into everything Faux News is selling, but luckily, that's not a big enough portion of the country to get very far. That's why Faux News has to constantly use old footage to exaggerate numbers at different events.

The government owns AIG and GM. This is a fact.

:facepalm:

No, it's not. You're more than welcome to try finding me a reliable source that says anything close to this, though.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
So, Joe, how do you reconcile your belief Obama is a leftist with Obama's support for the destruction of our liberties and freedoms -- just like those notable conservatives, Bush and Cheney? For instance, Obama's support for warrantless wiretapping?
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi mball,

You've got problems if you think that's evidence. Are you trying to say that the bailout was Obama's idea? Did you just forget that it was Bush who pushed for it and got it most of the way through before Obama took office?

You are confusing the bailout with the stimulus. In Obama's stimulus he is giving corporations billions of taxpayer dollars (of course this is also happening with TARP but I was just bringing up the stimulus to completely destroy your silly talking point).

I think you'd be surprised at how many Americans do want the government to run healthcare. Just because they're not our screaming at people and waving guns around trying to get noticed doesn't mean they're not there. So, yes, I'm sure Palin will get some support from the too-far-gone conservative community that buys into everything Faux News is selling, but luckily, that's not a big enough portion of the country to get very far. That's why Faux News has to constantly use old footage to exaggerate numbers at different events.

Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports™

Not quite. 56% oppose Obamacare.

No, it's not. You're more than welcome to try finding me a reliable source that says anything close to this, though.

GM Offers U.S. a Majority Stake - WSJ.com

Money quote:

The upshot would be the transformation of a troubled American icon, leaving it in the hands of the government and its main union. The situation, fraught with complications and potential conflicts, comes on top of the U.S. government taking stakes in banks and insurer American International Group Inc.

Check mate.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Sunstone,

So, Joe, how do you reconcile your belief Obama is a leftist with Obama's support for the destruction of our liberties and freedoms -- just like those notable conservatives, Bush and Cheney? For instance, Obama's support for warrantless wiretapping?

I don't think Obama is too concerned about foreign policy or issues surrounding the war on terror. To continue warrantless wiretapping was the path of least resistance. Also look at his inaction concerning Afghanistan. He gets off by central planning our lives from Washington. Going after our enemies is a bit boring to him.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Hi mball,



You are confusing the bailout with the stimulus. In Obama's stimulus he is giving corporations billions of taxpayer dollars (of course this is also happening with TARP but I was just bringing up the stimulus to completely destroy your silly talking point).

Nope, I'm not the one confusing anything. The bailout and the stimulus package are the same thing. This was all started by Bush and was pushed through legislative bodies while he was still in office. It was put into effect after Obama took office.

So, you're just going to have to try harder to destroy my "silly" talking point.


There's no such thing as Obamacare to begin with. However, I'd like a bit of a better survey. If you ask me whether I think the current bill is the best thing for our country, I'll say "No". That doesn't mean I don't like it or don't want it. I think if you sit down with 10 million random Americans, you'll find that the majority would support a system like Canada's.


Still waiting for that reliable source.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi mball,

Nope, I'm not the one confusing anything. The bailout and the stimulus package are the same thing. This was all started by Bush and was pushed through legislative bodies while he was still in office. It was put into effect after Obama took office.

So, you're just going to have to try harder to destroy my "silly" talking point.

You are factually incorrect. Obama signed his stimulus bill into law on Febuary 17, 2009.

Stimulus: How to measure success - Feb. 17, 2009

There's no such thing as Obamacare to begin with. However, I'd like a bit of a better survey. If you ask me whether I think the current bill is the best thing for our country, I'll say "No". That doesn't mean I don't like it or don't want it. I think if you sit down with 10 million random Americans, you'll find that the majority would support a system like Canada's.

Keep talking. The more you guys talk about healthcare the more Americans dislike your plans.

Still waiting for that reliable source.

The Wall Sreet Journal is. But I shouldn't expect much from some who cannot tell the difference between the bailout and Obama's stimulus.

The federal government has huge ownership stakes in GM and AIG. Ask your liberal friends. They probably know more than you.
 

Smoke

Done here.
I found it quite astonishing that Hitchens had misread Palin's appeal so much.
I don't think that he has, in this case. He's not saying the Teabaggers think Palin will begin government programs to benefit them; he's just saying that the anti-government policies the Teabaggers support will not benefit them, either.

However, I wouldn't think it were surprising if Hitchens failed to understand fundamentalists and their motives. I doubt he knows many of them socially or encounters many of them in his day-to-day life. They're probably as alien to him as Hollywood movie stars are to me.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Hi Sunstone,



I don't think Obama is too concerned about foreign policy or issues surrounding the war on terror. To continue warrantless wiretapping was the path of least resistance. Also look at his inaction concerning Afghanistan. He gets off by central planning our lives from Washington. Going after our enemies is a bit boring to him.


You're shirking the issue.

Also, elsewhere you incorrectly identify TARP as a spending program. It's a loan program. There's a difference. Loans are expected to be repaid. Spending is not repaid.
 
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