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Holy Crusades in Jerusalem right action or not?

Hello everyone,

I wanted to know your opinion about the religious crusades to take back Jerusalem. A lot of souls were lost during this period and both sides lost in my opinion since there were inhumane slaughters that happened on both sides. I read that the Muslims allowed all the religions to co exists in Jerusalem which I thought was a fair thing to do. Were the crusades the right action or not? I always tought that this shows the arrogance of men for control and self preservation.
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
hmmmmm - ive not done sufficient research on this to have an oppinion - but from what i do know, i do not think i would have gone on the crusade i i was alive at the time
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Mike182 said:
hmmmmm - ive not done sufficient research on this to have an oppinion - but from what i do know, i do not think i would have gone on the crusade i i was alive at the time
I agree, and I certainly wouldn't have gone (we Orthodox were victims of the Crusades rather than participants in them). Had they been simply wars of liberation (most of the population of the Holy Land were Christians ruled by Muslims) then that would have been fine, but I can see no justification for the wholesale slaughter of Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Jews and Muslims that occurred at various times in the various Crusades. It does bug me when the anti-Christian crowd use the Crusades as a stick to beat us with, though. It shows a distinct lack of historical understanding to blame these wars on Christianity when most Christians had no involvement in them and many were victims of them.

James
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
The Crusades were an attempt to justify political actions by playing the "God Card". It was reprehensible then and remains so to this day!!! In fact, Shrub & Co use this concept continually to advance their political agendas.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I found this quite an interesting read;

The Crusaders were right after all
By Christopher Howse
(Filed: 04/05/2005)

On February 11, 1847, the Scala opera house in Milan, its stage fitted out with fantastic arabesque ogees, onion domes and filagree fretting (representing the harem at Antioch), echoed to wild applause at the premiere of Verdi's I Lombardi alla prima crociata (The Lombards on the First Crusade).

It was not so much the music that wowed the opera-goers, but the identification of Jerusalem, occupied by the cruel Saracens, with Milan, occupied by the cruel Austrians. Lombard nationalists saw themselves as Crusaders.

That was, obviously, an absurd projection of modern values on to a creaky historical framework. But it was no more absurd than Sir Ridley Scott's new film set in 1186, just before the Third Crusade. Kingdom of Heaven follows the fortunes of Orlando Bloom (Legolas in The Lord of the Rings) as a blacksmith's son handy with a sword in defence of Jerusalem.

Teen audiences who cheered on Legolas as he slaughtered hundreds by the bow in the vast battles of Middle Earth, are invited in Kingdom of Heaven to conclude that nothing is worth fighting for. Bloom's character, Balian, surveying a massacre in the Holy Land, declares: "If this is the kingdom of heaven, then God can keep it."

Sir Ridley explains: "Balian is an agnostic, just like me." Yet there were no agnostics in the 12th century. That might sound ridiculous, but the word "agnostic" is a 19th-century invention (1869), just like the word "homosexual" (1892). There were sex acts between men in the Middle Ages, just as men and women doubted their faith, but neither fact defined a personal ideology.

Sir Ridley's problem is that he links agnosticism and tolerance as joint forces of good in his film, and he makes true believers - either Muslim or Christian - baddies. That is an impossible historical pill to swallow. And - groan - the Knights Templar (with their baggage from The Da Vinci Code and The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail) become the "Right-wing or Christian fundamentalists of their day", in Sir Ridley's words.

"If we could just take God out of the equation," says Sir Ridley, like John Lennon in Imagine, "there'd be no f---ing problem." A more realistic view of history requires less retrospective fantasy and more brain work. It means forcing our heads round to see what motivated men and women centuries ago. Try thinking the unthinkable - that the Crusaders were right, and that we should be grateful to them.

The First Crusade won back Jerusalem (pro sola devotione, "for the sake of devotion alone", in the idealistic terms in which it was launched) from Muslim control in 1099, not as an isolated incident but as part of a centuries-long effort to roll back the map of territory overrun by warlike Islamic expansionism since the seventh century.

The jihad of Mohammed's followers first won the Arabian peninsula (killing or subjugating Jewish and Christian rulers and tribes) and its programme had no end but the conquest of the whole world under unified Islamic rule. There was no tolerant agnosticism there.

In response to this unparalleled strategy of aggression, the main "Crusade" developed not in the Holy Land but in Spain, taking nearly 800 years to expel the Moorish invaders. It was as if the French Resistance struggled for centuries to throw off German rule. Amid the confused warfare even the cultured but short-lived Caliphate of Cordoba (929-1016) was hardly the garden of peaceful co-existence generally supposed.

It takes no great counter-factual leap to see what would have happened if Crusaders had not fought back. Gibbon for once got it right when he imagined a Muslim England where "the Koran would now be taught in the schools of Oxford, and her pulpits might demonstrate to a circumcised people the sanctity and truth of the revelation of Mahomet".

That, you might think, need not be so bad. But we wouldn't now be complaining how boring the election is. There would be no election and no free press in which to complain.

In Kingdom of Heaven, Saladin is portrayed as a gent, and so he was in a way. Saladin, a Kurd (belonging to an Indo-European language group, and no pan-Arabist), ruled the Islamic empire from Egypt. His prime success was as a general slaughtering Crusaders (as at Hattin, July 4, 1187); the Christian princes he captured were held hostage and sold for a ransom.

As a fighting man, Saladin was a mirror image of the ideal of the Christian knight. It is possible to reject cynically the very possibility of chivalry in a warrior. The Monty Python school of history paints any knight as a murderous mercenary.

The truth is that medieval Europe was a martial civilisation, which the Church futilely attempted to guide into the way of peace. But we are heirs to that martial civilisation. A knight is a fighting man. Sir Ridley Scott was dubbed with a sword.
© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2006. Terms & Conditions of reading.
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A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
GodLovesUs said:
Hello everyone,

I wanted to know your opinion about the religious crusades to take back Jerusalem. A lot of souls were lost during this period and both sides lost in my opinion since there were inhumane slaughters that happened on both sides. I read that the Muslims allowed all the religions to co exists in Jerusalem which I thought was a fair thing to do. Were the crusades the right action or not? I always tought that this shows the arrogance of men for control and self preservation.
RELIGIOUS WARS ARE EVIL
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
in the eyes of the Pope and the Catholic Church's desire to gain control of financially beneficial pilgrimage routes lost by the Byzantines to the Muslims, i'm sure he thought it was...

i on the other hand...
got a problem w/ locking every Jew in Jerusalem in the main shul and burning it to the ground.
 
At the moment most opinions are similar to mine. I hate to say it but history is repeating itself with all the killing in the world and the historical past, such as the crusades, are more than likely fueling the hatred in men. I wonder if we would attain true peace in our lifetime. All I can do is to pray for the misguided souls, I hope you can join me. Thanks for your opinion.
 

Bangbang

Active Member
If this planet does not wipe us all out with all its climate changes first, the next "crusades" will be fought with nuclear weapons. I suggest we do everything in our power to prevent this from happening.
 

Arkangel

I am Darth Vader
Just looking out of the moral view box it might not look so bad. If no crusades, who knows what would have happend and how this parallel history would have turned out. Like the novel Roma Eternia where the Roman empire never fell things would have been quite different i guess. So in a way what happened was right to happen when it happened.

I dont say that it is morally right to kill but just to think what it would be like with out them. Right or worng, their actions created the world today. Whether it is for the better or worse we will only know if we could ever visit the parallel history in which it never happened.
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
GodLovesUs said:
I wanted to know your opinion about the religious crusades to take back Jerusalem.
The crucades, in my opinion, were the wrong choice. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek, not to fight back. He taught love. If someone makes you mad, you shouldn't go take revenge on them - you should forgive them.
 
Arkangel said:
Just looking out of the moral view box it might not look so bad. If no crusades, who knows what would have happend and how this parallel history would have turned out. Like the novel Roma Eternia where the Roman empire never fell things would have been quite different i guess. So in a way what happened was right to happen when it happened.

I dont say that it is morally right to kill but just to think what it would be like with out them. Right or worng, their actions created the world today. Whether it is for the better or worse we will only know if we could ever visit the parallel history in which it never happened.
As they always say there is always a lesson learned and also there is always a reason why things happen. Its just till now there is no real peace or harmony (from the news I see, I don't live there maybe someone in the forum does) in Jerusalem or the neighboring territories.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
michel said:
Any wars are evil; religious wars are even more evil.
I agree.

Sometimes war is a necessary evil. Unfortunately, a state cannot exist without war. :( It's how we define boundaries and preserve governments. In the Bible, even God's government is created by means of war. The Christian tradition looks forward to a world without wars, but a war occurs to make this peace come about. (edit - I'm not saying that I beleive that will literally happen in the future, but simply that war will be with us as long as we have human government. Only God can establish the human utopia of world peace IMHO - but that doesn't mean that we should not try to accomplish peace.).
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
I agree.

Sometimes war is a necessary evil. Unfortunately, a state cannot exist without war. :( It's how we define boundaries and preserve governments. In the Bible, even God's government is created by means of war. The Christian tradition looks forward to a world without wars, but a war occurs to make this peace come about. (edit - I'm not saying that I beleive that will literally happen in the future, but simply that war will be with us as long as we have human government. Only God can establish the human utopia of world peace IMHO - but that doesn't mean that we should not try to accomplish peace.).
I agree. War is sometimes needed (unfortunately) as a last resort in order to attain peace.
 
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