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Homosexuality and religious.

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I think it is just black is really white, up is really down apologetics.

Baha'u'llah said,
'For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.

Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touch-stone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?

Likewise, these souls, through the potency of the Divine Elixir, traverse, in the twinkling of an eye, the world of dust and advance into the realm of holiness'

It is an analogy which Baha'u'llah likens to the transmutation of copper to gold as being like the change from materialistic souls to holy ones.

If copper were symbolic of materialistic souls and gold were symbolic of holy ones His analogy would be likening something to itself - which doesn't make sense if you are trying to explain something via analogy.

It is clear that Baha'u'llah did not consider the transmutation of copper to gold to be a part of alchemy, rather He considered it to be a part of science and in that He only demonstrated His own superstition.

In my opinion.

That's OK I am more inclined to consider it has both both a material and a spiritual meaning.

The material aspect relies upon the elixir, to which has not been given. It has been suggested that the elixir in the hands of the current generations of men would be their destruction, as they would use it to kill rather than for progress.

The purpose of the article was to offer that the diversity of thought about these passages exists amongst Baha'i, but it does not have to be a cause of Division.

Will there be a future discovery in science?

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Isn't that your job to be an emissary and spokesperson for what you believe to be a God-given message? The humanists don't hesitate to say anything that they feel strongly about.

That is a difficult question, as it is yes and a no.

The yes needs to be clothed in wisdom, or it is a no. There is guidance given as to what is wisdom and what is not.

The no side of a conversation will dominate, if the hearer is not ready to consider what was offered.

Thus a difficult game on an open forum debate, as a conversation with someone such as you, who is open to further discussion on some aspects of the topic, will attract many that were not. Then you end up with 1000's of what can really be seen as a wasteful conflict of opinions.

That also cones back to one's own self constraints. Then there are others that will see all questions require an answer, no matter what! It all boils back to our understanding of the guidance given in the Writings.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Why do we need Baha'u'llah's advice on hygiene or cleanliness? Or his ideas of what constitutes purity?

The concept is that God is all knowing, and as such, the laws given for the age are suited for the best interests of humanity as a whole. They create the required balance.

The further we move away from those laws and guidance, the greater the imbalance that will result, as a correction is always needed.

That spiritual truth is reflected in our natural world, as all spiritual truths have a reflection in this material world, they are the driving forces behind creation, one may even venture to say that the Spirit is the electrical impulses that fire creation, our very own brain.

Regards Tony
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you want to believe i am homophobic just because I am a Baha'i thats up to you.

But you didn't rebut him. He gave you his argument for why. He wrote that the Baha'i faith is homophobic and that you are an adherent of the Baha'i faith, therefore homophobic. I would add that you are also known to be aware of this scripture by now if not last week, and have not disavowed it, which is condoning it, and continue to promote Baha'ism without disclaimer nevertheless.

Assuming you still consider yourself a Baha'i adherent, if you disagree, it's either because you don't feel that the scripture in questions demeans gays or that demeaning gays isn't homophobic. It's not enough to say that you disagree if you don't give convincing reasons for believing he's wrong. I think your only counterclaim was that you do not feel negativity for gays, and therefore are not homophobic. Feeling that disdain is a sufficient but not necessary condition for homophobia. Simply believing what your faith teaches is enough when the teaching is homophobic.

The concept is that God is all knowing, and as such, the laws given for the age are suited for the best interests of humanity as a whole. They create the required balance. The further we move away from those laws and guidance, the greater the imbalance that will result, as a correction is always needed.

I don't think this answers my question, which was, "Why do we need Baha'u'llah's advice on hygiene or cleanliness?" I have better sources for that information. Why would I go to a religious person for information there? That's health science.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I agree that morals are taught by example or words reinforced by example. When the example contradicts the verbal lesson (hypocrisy), the example IS the lesson, not the words.

This is a good aspect of education to agree upon. There is too much hypocrisy in education.

This is my objection to Christianity calling itself a religion of love because it has a scripture that says love another, yet doesn't do that itself by humanist standards of love, which wouldn't include blood sacrifice, crucifixion, damnation, or hell. There'd be no apple dangling before children to see if they can resist (Spoiler: they can't) then punishing them for being human. There also would be no global flood, a gratuitously cruel attack on all terrestrial life plant or animal.

Personally, I see if one is a Christian they are also a humanitarian , a lover of all humanity, and most importantly look after the world we live in by maintaining a balance in our material pursuits.

That is why God renews religions and promises never to leave us without guidance. As humans we tend to turn unto our material animal nature, and forgo our spiritual potential.

The Christian was also given law that must be followed if the balance is to be found, Islam is the same. If we neglect the laws, or change them to suit our animal calling, then the balance is lost.

Apart from the homophobic doctrine, I don't know enough about what the Baha'i believe to critique it analogously. Do they accept original sin, damnation, and hell theology? Do they even believe in an afterlife? A paradise? If so, who goes where and according to what rules? The Christian versions of justice (eternal hell for not believing an unevidenced claim?) and mercy (there are no appeals for the damned) are just as deformed as the example given of love.

I am not good at answering so many points, I find it difficult to focus. At school I would tackle a problem, get it finished, but never did the final tidy up one may say! The reports would always say, need to pay attention to detail.

So the multi questions. "Do Baha'is accept original sin, damnation, and hell theology?"

No to original sin doctrine. We have been told we are created on the edge of darkness and the beginning of light. That means that our animal nature is the darkness and our spiritual capacity is the light. Our purpose, in this matrix (womb of our spiritual birth and growth) is to find and cultivate our spiritual capacities. So heaven and hell are states of being, hell is lack of spiritual capacity, heaven is obtaining to our spiritual capacity, (Nearness and Remoteness from God is heaven and hell). This is why Jesus said we must be born again from the flesh into the Spirit. Death cannot overtake this birth. (Big topic)

Do they even believe in an afterlife? A paradise?

As mentioned above, when born from the flesh into the Spirit, there is no death, as it becomes an eternal consciousness. Paradise is nearness to God, hell is remoteness. This topic is also immense and requires a lot of study and meditation on what is offered.

I can offer what I understand. If one does not embrace the Spirit, it is like a rock in this world, it exists, but without consciousness, this is a state of being we see as hell, remoteness from God. Embracing the spirit allows that consciousness to fly like an eagle in all the world's of God. Have you ever had those dreams where you fly, or can runs so fast it defies logic?

If so, who goes where and according to what rules?

Every Soul passes on to the Spiritual Worlds under the bounty and mercy of God. A just God that fulfills all that was promised and all that was warned against. They pass to that world in the spiritual state that they obtained in this life. If the chance was not given, then this is under the bounty of God.

The rules are simple, the Messengers of God give those rules and guidance. Our spiritual limbs are grown on submission to those laws and guidance.

So it is quite possible that a person who has not hear of the Messenger, but lives their life according to those rules and guidance, is more a Baha'i than someone who claims to be.

This is a big topic and as to the form we take in the Spiritual worlds, much is written but little explained, as it is offered there is no comparison or words that can be offered to such a joyous state of being.

(You may be aware many NDE accounts offer that the experience is un-describable) this is also a good talk by Abdul'baha.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony
 
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Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
But you didn't rebut him. He gave you his argument for why. He wrote that the Baha'i faith is homophobic and that you are an adherent of the Baha'i faith, therefore homophobic. I would add that you are also known to be aware of this scripture by now if not last week, and have not disavowed it, which is condoning it, and continue to promote Baha'ism without disclaimer nevertheless.

Assuming you still consider yourself a Baha'i adherent, if you disagree, it's either because you don't feel that the scripture in questions demeans gays or that demeaning gays isn't homophobic. It's not enough to say that you disagree if you don't give convincing reasons for believing he's wrong. I think your only counterclaim was that you do not feel negativity for gays, and therefore are not homophobic. Feeling that disdain is a sufficient but not necessary condition for homophobia. Simply believing what your faith teaches is enough when the teaching is homophobic.



I don't think this answers my question, which was, "Why do we need Baha'u'llah's advice on hygiene or cleanliness?" I have better sources for that information. Why would I go to a religious person for information there? That's health science.
Does it really matter what people who believe in Baha'u'llah say at all in here? I have nothing to prove to people like @Sheldon
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I don't think this answers my question, which was, "Why do we need Baha'u'llah's advice on hygiene or cleanliness?" I have better sources for that information. Why would I go to a religious person for information there? That's health science.

We need the Spiritual guidance to override our animal selves. Science is not necessarily interested in the ethics and the morality of its research. Whereas the ethics and morals can and will guide us to what we find is worthy of discovery.

Sometimes things are better off not being discovered, if we still have the animal dominating our actions. Splitting the atom is an example given to us, as to how we need to change our moral and ethical outlook.

Baha'u'llah quotes from an ancient poem.

"Split the atom's heart, and lo! Within it thou wilt find a sun".

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Does it really matter what people who believe in Baha'u'llah say at all in here? I have nothing to prove to people like @Sheldon

Yes indeed, "… man should know his own self and recognize that which leadeth unto loftiness or lowliness, glory or abasement, wealth or poverty … – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 35

It is also wise guidance Baha'u'llah gives.

"Beware! Walk not with the ungodly and seek not fellowship with him, for such companionship turneth the radiance of the heart into infernal fire." – Baha’u’llah, The Hidden Words, p. 42.

"The company of the ungodly increaseth sorrow, whilst fellowship with the righteous cleanseth the rust from off the heart." – Ibid.

The key here is that we do not judge the soul, we just avoid the toxic no God mentality.

"One must see in every human being only that which is worthy of praise. When this is done, one can be a friend to the whole human race. If, however, we look at people from the standpoint of their faults, then being a friend to them is a formidable task. – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 169.

A quandary indeed.;):D

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Tend to those indeed! All the best.

RF will be quite without a Trailblazer.:D;)

:sparklingheart:Regards Tony
Did you mean to say it will be quiet without me? :D
I am not gone, just busy with some PMs and texts.

I have a new thread I am going to post but I do not think I will post it today since it is getting late here and I still have things to do. I will probably post it tomorrow.

BTW, I did not mean to leave you out as a Baha'i I left on this thread, I was just in a hurry when I wrote that post. :)
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Did you mean to say it will be quiet without me? :D
I am not gone, just busy with some PMs and texts.

I have a new thread I am going to post but I do not think I will post it today since it is getting late here and I still have things to do. I will probably post it tomorrow.

BTW, I did not mean to leave you out as a Baha'i I left on this thread, I was just in a hurry when I wrote that post. :)

I am happy to be unannounced. Have a great night, it is our Sunday Morning, not sure if I will do a church visit!

:D;):)

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don't think this answers my question, which was, "Why do we need Baha'u'llah's advice on hygiene or cleanliness?" I have better sources for that information. Why would I go to a religious person for information there? That's health science.

I'm always amazed at how many religious people go to their scriptures or leaders for advice that seems patently obvious, or plain common sense to the rest of us. Sometimes it borders on absurdity.

"Honey, what should I have for breakfast?"
"Well, Dear, let's see what the good book says about that."

Baha'u'llahs advice on hygiene? Wow. Really? I missed that part. Too busy having a shower I guess.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes, to you. That is not objective to me. That is subjective faith.
Again, we hear the same thing from born-again Christians. They believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. They say that there is "proof" that the Earth isn't billions of years old. They say there is "proof" that the Earth was completely flooded. They have "proof" that the dinosaurs and humans lived together. Christian? Baha'is? The stories sound equally possible. Either one could be true. Or both could be wrong. But the "proofs" both of them use aren't all that convincing to some people. It takes a lot of "faith" to believe them.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
No I honestly do not see your logic in your post.
Okay then. I am not surprised. @It Ain't Necessarily So tried to explain it.

Try this as an analogy.
1) I live in Canada.
2) The capital of Canada is Ottawa.

Therefore, you can conclude that Vinayak's capital city of his country is Ottawa, and not London.
 
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