Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

If you agree, then you are holding negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality. It's pretty straightforward.

She said, "I agree with the Baha'i Laws regarding homosexuality..." I'm a few pages behind, but I've asked about scientific research on this. Is homosexuality a mental disorder that can be "cured" through therapy? If not, then what are Baha'is basing their "beliefs" on? It's only by what their religion teaches. And again, they are the ones that say that religion should be in harmony with science.

But they don't care what science says. They only know what their religion says and that's all the matter, because it is God's supposed word. How many barriers did gays have to tear down to get "straight" society to welcome them in and accept them as not being sick in the head and evil? Now that they are out and in plain view of the world, what is it that Baha'is expect them to do? Is it okay with Baha'is that they have parades and do things that promote their lifestyles as being okay? If their teachings say homosexuality is not normal or natural, then I don't think a Baha'i can say anything but that gays should not be allowed to promote the behavior. To Baha'is, it is a behavior that should be stopped. It is a behavior that is forbidden, they say, by God and his latest prophet.

But no, nothing is straight forward with Baha'is, because they don't want to be seen as the bad guys, as being negative. They want to be known as the religion that loves and respects all people no matter what beliefs they hold or what color of skin they have. Then we look at the teachings, and they don't really accept them as is for very long. They expect them to change. And with homosexuals, they can say the love them and accept them. But how long are Baha'is going to allow them to keep practicing a homosexual lifestyle? Forever? As long as they do it in private? Or... in the closet? Is this really from God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Sexuality is a part of a person's nature. That is a simple fact of reality.

It is part of a person's animal nature, not a part of their spiritual nature. To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man.

Ok. Let's have a look? (Who is "Dale" btw?)

Dale is a Baha'i who was the owner of the Planet Baha'i forum before he shut it down.

Romantic love and sex are very much connected and symbiotic. It is unrealistic to claim that the two are somehow separate. The relationship is both strong and commonplace.

Romantic love and sex can be separate or together. Sex is not necessary for romantic love.
Couples can have romance while they are dating, before they get married and have sex.

Kinda like how cheese isn't necessary on a pizza.

Not the same at all. I was bonded to my husband even though we had no sex for the last 20 years.

In most species, yes, but certainly not in humans. For us, sex is primarily about enjoyment. The fact that we have been practicing contraception for millennia clearly shows this.

So what? That does not mean that is what sex should be about, or what it was designed for.
I'm glad I finally got over that obsession. It was the best thing that ever happened to me and I never looked back, not even once.

This is simply ignoring the observed reality that for humans, reproduction is a secondary consideration in sex - often completely absent.

So what? Lots of things can be observed in humans, good and bad.

Unsupported assertion.

More unfounded assertion. There is no evidence that there even is a "spiritual" nature that is independent of the physical brain.

It is a belief, not an assertion.

Another straw man. While sex is certainly a big part of any romantic relationship, no one claims that it is the only or defining part.

It is not a straw man because he said: "however much it may be able to play a role in a truly loving relationship"

For some people, sex is a major part of their lives. So what? Why is that such a problem?

It is not a problem for me. That is their business, not mine. It used to be a big part of my life but I am grateful I got out from under it.

Mere dogmatic platitudes with no evidential support.

No, they are just religious beliefs. What evidential support do you have to support your personal opinions?

"Suffering brings you closer to god" usually said by people who are not suffering, to people who are.

That is true. It is usually said by people who are not suffering.

As I said, I have no idea who this "Dale" person is (are they some sort of Bahai spokesperson?), but your respect for their work is misplaced. Sorry.

I told you who he is above, and no, he is not a Baha'i spokesperson.
I just happen to agree with him but not all Baha'is do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok. What harm does it cause?

It causes harm to the soul because it is a sin.

 

[PruePhillip]

Are you ok?

Doing fine, thanks.
When I was growing up in the 1960's we had Sex Education where we learned about ovaries, chromosomes and the like. So when you get married you might have some idea of how it all works as the kids arrive.
This education morphed into talk about 'the pill' and abortion in the 1970's.
Now its about transgender, gay oppression, queer theory, surgical sex changes for 12 year olds and kids sharing the locker room together.

So sure, doing fine. If you can't understand these fast moving trends I suggest you take some time out, lie down and take a Panadol.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahai teachings tell homosexuals that their nature is evil, immoral, shameful aberration, handicapped and against nature.
How is that not harming them?

If you want to claim that hurting their feelings is harming them, then you have to admit that that anything that hurts people's feelings harms them.

You do realise that homosexuals can suffer great mental anguish due to the kind of nasty homophobia in Bahai teachings, some even take their own lives. It is quite disgraceful for people to blithely claim that it "harms no one".

If they do that it is not because of what the Baha'i Faith teaches since most homosexuals don't even know what it teaches.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you think Bahai laws should be for everyone.

No, Baha'i Laws are only for people who choose to become Baha'is.

 

[CG Didymus]

Do they?
Islam allows four wives (except for Muhammad who was allowed at least 12. As Muhammad is "the best of creation", the perfect moral exemplar and role model for all people, then surely 12 is the best number of wives to have?)

Anyway, I was asking what "made monogamy the best form of marriage which is conditional upon justice" means.

King David, a man after God's heart, had eighteen wives and concubines. But Muhammad, whom Baha'is claim is a manifestation of God... someone who is a perfect reflection of God had a few more...

(T)he Prophet Muhammad used to visit all eleven of his wives in one night; but he could manage this, as he had the sexual prowess of thirty men.[1] The historian Al-Tabari calculated that Muhammad married a total of fifteen women, though only ever eleven at one time; and two of these marriages were never consummated.[2] This tally of fifteen does not include at least four concubines. According to Merriam-Webster, a concubine is “a woman with whom a man cohabits without being married”, and has a “social status in a household below that of a wife.”[3] All of Muhammad’s concubines were his slaves. Al-Tabari also excludes from the fifteen several other women with whom Muhammad had some kind of marriage contract but who, due to legal technicalities, never became full wives. It is fairly certain, however, that none of these unions was ever consummated. They were the cultural equivalent of a broken engagement. Finally, there were several other women whom Muhammad wished to marry, or whom he was invited to marry, but for various reasons he did not.
​

So, why does God care so much about people having sex outside or without being married? Or people that are homosexual, but it's okay for his manifestation to do whatever they want?

 

[Trailblazer]

Define "flagrant homosexuality".

Flaunting their homosexuality in public places, like gay bars.

But you now admit that Bahaism does harm homosexuals - or are you going to claim that disenfranchising someone is not harming them?

What is a harm mean?

harm, injury, and damage mean an act that causes loss or pain. harm can be used of anything that causes suffering or loss. The frost did great harm to the crops. injury is likely to be used of something that has as a result the loss of health or success.
Harm Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

A man might lose his license if he drives drunk so that causes a loss and pain, but since he knew the possible consequences of his actions, who is to blame? Likewise, Baha'is should know what the consequences are for flagrant homosexuality.

 

[We Never Know]

I don't understand. Explain.

But why?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's sad, not funny.

The story about his great Aunt Carrie is both sad and funny.
The story about my husband is funny now but it was not funny at the time.

 

[Trailblazer]

This doesn't make any sense. Do you know what the word 'optimistic' means?

Yes, I know what it means.
KWED was optimistic, meaning he was hopeful that he was right when he said that I denied what he said I denied since I did not deny what he said I denied.

 

[We Never Know]

In this context it is asinine, and it is shifting the goal posts, but then that is what I have come to expect from most religious apologetics, the kind of idiotic moral bankruptcy that can casually compare raping a child, or murder to being gay.

First off I am not religious. Its asinine for you to think I am.
Secondly saying two or more things are bad isn't comparing them(unless one says equally bad). Its asinine for you think it is.

Apples and oranges both taste crappy to me.
Is that another asinine statement?

 

[We Never Know]

Google mermaids are real, there are web pages on that.

We already covered this discussion. Please get caught up.

 

[Trailblazer]

Several of your fellow adherents are glibly comparing raping children and murder to being gay

Please cite the posts.

 

[KWED]

Yes I would because the requirement for being a Baha'i is that we believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, not that I always agree with or perfectly follow all the teachings and Laws.

But according to Bahaullah, part of believing is to unquestioningly accept the word of god as revealed by Bahaullah (you are required to as a necessary part of your duty). So if you don't, then you clearly aren't believing that he is the messenger of god, otherwise you would accept whatever he said.
Kind of a Catch 22 paradox.

More often than not I forget to say my daily obligatory prayer.

Forgetting to do something that is required by god is not the same as wilfully rejecting it.
And if you usually forget such an important part of Bahai faith, then it clearly isn't really that important to you. If it was, you would set alarms, leave reminders around, just make more of an effort!
So I think we need to investigate further why you claim Bahaism is so important, and you are so convinced it is true, yet you aren't really bothered about following it. I'm intrigued.

 

[ppp]

No problem because if you continue i put you on ignore

You probably should still do so. Because although your little some of my best friends are gay parody was amusing, you still think that supporting a organization with homophobic principles and then declaring yourself neutral on the issue is not homophobic. Spoilers: It still is.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's homophobic, and it's asinine semantics, like claiming racism isn't about prejudice against people, only skin colour. You're just showing that your superstition is as morally bankrupt as the rest.

Not even in the same ball park.

 

[KWED]

I agree with some of that but not all of that.
I believe that homosexuality is a sexual aberration that is against nature. I believe it is immoral.
Thus I hold some negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality.

"Homophobia - negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality" - Homophobia - Wikipedia

Well, if you don't want to be labelled a homophobe, I suggest you stop holding negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality. Or at least stop advertising that you do.
Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do about Bahaism. That is forever labelled as homophobic by its own teachings.

(Wow, that took nearly 50 pages of denials and contradictions before you finally accepted the obvious. Well, better late than never I guess)

 

[Trailblazer]

Aside from being Baha'i, do you belong to any minority or marginalized groups?

By virtue of my personality I am in a small minority.
Introduction | Advocate (INFJ) Personality | 16Personalities

Sometimes referred to as the "Advocate" or the "Idealist," people with this personality type often feel misunderstood. Perhaps it's because INFJ is the rarest MBTI personality type, making up only 1% to 3% of the U.S. population.1 Or maybe it's because they're walking, talking contradictions. Aug 4, 2022

INFJ: Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, Judging - Verywell Mind

 

[Trailblazer]

How is it against nature?

"Homosexual and bisexual behaviors occur in a number of other animal species. Such behaviors include sexual activity, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting, and are widespread; a 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihlshows that homosexual behavior has been documented in about 500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms."

- Homosexuality - Wikipedia

It may not be against our animal nature but it is against our spiritual nature, Imo.