Homosexuality and religious.

[loverofhumanity]

there is the problem right there.

Its the use of the word 'homophobic'

I dont think anyone is scared of homosexuals. No one has a fear of homosexual people. To label everyone who has the opinion that same gender sex is not good as 'homophobic' is not really accurate. Its just a bullying tactic designed to shut people up.

Its because of insecurity I believe.
We are absolutely 100% sure that homosexuality is immoral and unacceptable because God has confirmed this with those who believe in Him. Those going out of their way to bully and intimidate those of us who see it for what it really is are very insecure because if they were so sure of themselves they wouldn’t care less if we considered it good or bad.

They want every person on earth to tell them they are on the right path while we do not need others to support our beliefs. We stand strong and firm while they are weak and insecure so feel the desperate need to bully others to agree with them and if we don’t then we are ‘infidels’ or homophobic. How laughable! Lol

 

[loverofhumanity]

Try to finish one topic before skittering off to another.You asked why you cannot have a dissenting opinion. Do you understand that your question was twaddle? The answer was that no one is stopping you.

Thank you.

 

[KWED]

I have a problem with it but unless the UHJ changes their ruling it is not prohibited by Baha'i Law.

So the issue isn't Bahai laws, it is your own personal ideas of morality and decency then.
In which case, are you personally ok with homosexuality and homosexual sex and only support homophobia because you are told to. Or do you personally support homophobia, irrespective of Bahai laws.

IOW, if you were not a Bahai, would you still think homosexuality was an evil passion, shameful aberration, immoral, against nature, etc?

 

[loverofhumanity]

If he was wrong then you would have a better response than a set of platitudes.

No platitudes just facts. Religion teaches us to be virtuous and of upright character. There are thousands of texts which support this fact. To make such false accusations belies one’s complete ignorance.

This is only a tiny part of what religion teaches. It calls us to behave humanely and care for others.


Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humility.

Baha’u’llah (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp 285)

 

[KWED]

That is the fallacy of false equivalence because all things that 'feel good' are not equivalent.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".
False equivalence - Wikipedia

Been looking through My Big Book of Fallacies again, I see.
No, it is not a false equivalence.
You claimed that Bahaism encourages giving up things that feel good. There was no mention of what those things had to be. If you are now claiming that it is only certain things (or one specific thing) that should be given up and doesn't apply to anything else, but not presenting a rational argument for it, then that is the fallacy of special pleading.

The Baha'i Faith does not suggest that Baha'is should give up sex.

In his argument, your man Dale said that sex should be only for procreation. You cites that as your position.

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives.

Why is informed, consensual, adult sex between people in a stable, loving relationship "positively harmful to man and society"?
(This is where you say "cuz god sez", and off we go on the circular logic merry-go-round again)

The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse '

Of course it does. It's there in black and white in Bahai texts. It tells gays to suppress their sex impulse through conversion therapy (which is illegal in many countries)

but in its regulation and control.'

Same thing.

'Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage: According to the Bahá’í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse.'

There you go. Unless you are married to someone of the opposite sex, you must suppress your sex impulses.

Furthermore, Baha'u'llah wrote that we should partake of the 'good things' that God has allowed us and be thankful for them. That includes sex.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

Basically "You can choose anything on the menu, except dessert".

 

[KWED]

I am not denying it so why do you keep bringing it up again?
Case closed.

So just to confirm, one last time.
You accept that Bahai teachings contain homophobic language. Correct?

ONLY in your opinion.

Aaand, there we have it. Now you are denying that Bahai teachings contain homophobic language.
You couldn't make it up!

In my opinion, lack of belief causes nasty, antisocial, even damaging behavior.
We all have opinions.

So you claim that all non-Bahais exhibit nasty, antisocial, even damaging behavior?

We don't have to justify them to you.

Well, Bahais have been trying to justify the homophobia in their texts for over 50 pages now.
But your attitude is "Yes, Bahaism contains homophobia. So what?" Really?

I did not say that they hurt ME. I said that can hurt people.

So you accept that the homophobic language in Bahai teachings can harm people.

 

[KWED]

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".
False equivalence - Wikipedia

Again, not a "false equivalence". (The key to calling out fallacies is understanding what they are and how to apply them. This seems to be another concept you are unable to grasp)
Homophobia, racism and sexism are all very much equivalent concepts. They are all intolerant, discriminatory, prejudicial thoughts and deeds based on dislike of an innate part of a person.
In fact, it would be hard to think of a better example of three equivalent concepts than homophobia racism and sexism.

 

[KWED]

That is all in the Baha'i Writings if you want to know.

They don't present any arguments as to why it is evil, immoral, shameful, etc, just that it is.
However, it does say that it is "against nature" and that is demonstrably, scientifically wrong.
It also says that it can be "cured" with prayer, doctors, etc. Not only is this scientifically wrong and known to cause harm, but is illegal in many countries.

So at least we know that Bahai writings encourage unscientific beliefs and illegal activities!
Ouch!

 

[KWED]

I'll try again

"Saying that people are homophobic is judgemental"
"Calling people homophobes is judgemental"

That makes no sense. There are supposed to be two conflicting positions there. You just repeated the same position.
As I predicted, you didn't understand the argument at all.
And someone upvoted you! Bless

 

[KWED]

You'd be better off minding your own business when it comes to peoples personal beliefs.

When people present and attempt to justify those beliefs on a public debate forum, they are implicitly asking people to get involved in their business.
It's really not a difficult concept to grasp - although a few people on here clearly do have difficulty with it.

 

[KWED]

Homosexuals have been pushing the agenda for some time now. If you dont support them, then you are automatically labeled 'homophobic'

I wouldnt take it personally and I dont think what you stated was at all homophobic. You just didnt offer the support they need to feel justified in their actions. They are looking for support because their conscience bothers them as it does for any error we pursue.

Romans 2:14, 15 we read: “For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.”

Homosexuals seek the approval of every person on earth because their own conscience does not offer them approval. We were designed by God and he put internal laws into us...we dont have to obey them, but when we dont obey them our conscience condemns us.

More mealy-mouthed excuses from people attempting to rationalise the homophobia in their religious/personal beliefs.

People are labelled "homophobic" if they express sentiments that are intolerant, prejudicial or discriminatory towards homosexuality or homosexuals.
People who have no opinion on the issue are not homophobes. Even people who say they could never have gay sex because they aren't sexually attracted to the same sex are not homophobes.
If you believe there is something innately "wrong" or "immoral" or "perverted" or "unnatural" about homosexuality, then you are a homophobe.
But don't despair! You can be cured of that psychological illness, with education and open-mindedness.

 

[KWED]

The strange thing is, i even multiple times said, i am not against homosexual people. But i could not do the sexual action my self.

But you go far beyond that. You believe that homosexuality is an evil passion, shameful aberrance, immoral, handicap, against nature, something that faithful Bahais should purge from the world.

I'm not sexually attracted to men either. But I also believe that homosexuality is natural, moral, acceptable, in fact no different to heterosexuality. Homosexuals should be considered no different to heterosexuals in every aspect of life. The distinction should be as meaningless as being left or right-handed.
Do you see the difference in our positions?

 

[KWED]

Never change your view! Your standards in life are yours to live, no one elses. They have no right to demand compliance from any of us.

 

[KWED]

they are free to do that

Not according to some ideologies, including your own faith.

Why am I (or anyone else) not free to hold to a different opinion?

Of course you can hold a different opinion. But you must also expect to have that opinion examined.
Not all opinions are acceptable.
Remember when it was acceptable to hold the opinion that black people were inferior to white people? Or that women shouldn't be allowed to vote?
Well, the opinion that homosexuality is "immoral, shameful, unnatural", etc is part of that group of narrow-minded, uninformed, bigotry.

Hope this helped.

 

[KWED]

You have your beliefs and I have mine. So you go your way and I’ll go mine.

The thing is, you are here, on a religious debate forum. You are a regular poster, so you clearly want to present and defend your beliefs, so I will continue to respond. If you are unable to address the points and questions I raise, then those beliefs are clearly not as sound as you would like to think.

 

[KWED]

It’s ok. Let all your frustrations out. It doesn’t bother me at all. I’m so happy to be a Baha’i that nothing can really bother me. I’ve found the truth even though I’m not worthy to have found Baha’u’llah.

You presented some "arguments" to support your position, on a religious debate forum.
I responded to them in detail, highlighting the flaws.
Your response was to ignore it all and just claim certainty of belief.
This suggests the same blind following of dogma that the other Bahais on here exhibit.
I've not really encountered Bahais in online debate forums before joining this one, and it is interesting that they seem to be the most dogmatically entranced of all the faiths.

 

[KWED]

I was always opposed to the act of homosexuality

What do you mean "opposed to the act of homosexuality"?
Do you mean that you won't do it yourself, or that no one should be allowed to do it?

But I was very happy that we are told to love and welcome homosexuals as equal fellow humans.

But you aren't! You cant separate homosexuality and homosexuals, and Bahaism is absolutely and vociferously against homosexuality. Bahai teachings contain overtly homophobic language.

It's like saying "I'm fine with Bahais but I won't tolerate them worshiping god and praising Bahaullah. Their beliefs are shameful, immoral, perverted and against nature".

God is really like a loving Father.

No he isn't. A loving father would accept their child's homosexuality.

 

[KWED]

That is the hundred-dollar question, and if we hold a different opinion we are labeled homophobes.
Enough is enough.

If you hold the opinion that homosexuality is an evil, immoral, unnatural, shameful aberration that should be purged from the world, then you are a homophobe. By definition.
Just as if you hold the opinion that black people are genetically inferior, lazy, and prone to criminality, then you are a racist. By definition.
Just as if you hold the opinion that women should stay at home and mind the family, not get ideas above their station, obey their husband, are naturally a bit dim, then you are a sexist. By definition.

It has nothing to do with simply holding a "different" opinion.
Hope this helped.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Again, not a "false equivalence". (The key to calling out fallacies is understanding what they are and how to apply them. This seems to be another concept you are unable to grasp)
Homophobia, racism and sexism are all very much equivalent concepts. They are all intolerant, discriminatory, prejudicial thoughts and deeds based on dislike of an innate part of a person.
In fact, it would be hard to think of a better example of three equivalent concepts than homophobia racism and sexism.

Well, I have read so many books by scientists about this, that I have an overall category for that: Normal behaviour versus abnormal behaviour. When you then read scientific books about that, you learn that has nothing to do with religion in particular. The problem of how normal as a normative claim can result in harm is not just about religion, it is also about religion.

 

[KWED]

I understand why you would see it that way.

Yeah, because that is textbook "indoctrination".