Homosexuality

[Ashoka]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that everyone in prison is having gay sex

This made me chuckle.

 

[Ashoka]

ere are plenty of gay and lesbian people who don't have an interest in sex or very limited interests in sex. T

*raises hand* Asexual panromantic here. Sex averse too.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is untrue, every paper/article on "a gay gene" is a libidinous gene.

There is no gay gene or libidinous gene.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Jails are segregated by gender, so of course the only people to have sex with are the same gender. It's not what their preference is, but as mom used to say, "any port in a storm."

You don't see how your last post and this contradict each other?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I won't bog you down in unfamiliar terminology like gay demisexual or homoromantic asexual but it may behoove you to know that there are plenty of gay and lesbian people who don't have an interest in sex or very limited interests in sex. There doesn't seem to be any reason at all to think homosexuals categorically have higher libido.

False equivocation--there are straight people with low libidos also.

True or false? A person with a higher libido who identifies as straight is more likely to resort to homosexuality in confinement?

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is not even remotely true. Currently what's being looked at are epigenetic switches that are expressed in development by environmental triggers such as conditions in the womb. The epigenetic control the same sort of gonad-trait expressions on the spectrum of which extreme points are intersex conditions. Neither of which extreme have more or less libido than their non-intersex counterparts. Homosexuality as a consequence of epigenetically canalized sexual development - PubMed

This means that, if causal, homosexuality is just another natural part of the rich diversity of epigenetic expression of androgens.

But really it doesn't matter because Christian evangelicals don't actually care about biology, or how nonsensical it is to separate nature and nurture especially where epigenetics is concerned. Considering things thought of as 'fully natural' like race and sex didn't historically stop the Bible being used for racism or misogyny.

You see it! The Bible supports neither racism nor misogyny but people use the Bible for nefarious purposes.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is not even remotely true. Currently what's being looked at are epigenetic switches that are expressed in development by environmental triggers such as conditions in the womb. The epigenetic control the same sort of gonad-trait expressions on the spectrum of which extreme points are intersex conditions. Neither of which extreme have more or less libido than their non-intersex counterparts. Homosexuality as a consequence of epigenetically canalized sexual development - PubMed

This means that, if causal, homosexuality is just another natural part of the rich diversity of epigenetic expression of androgens.

But really it doesn't matter because Christian evangelicals don't actually care about biology, or how nonsensical it is to separate nature and nurture especially where epigenetics is concerned. Considering things thought of as 'fully natural' like race and sex didn't historically stop the Bible being used for racism or misogyny.

Multiple skeptics on this forum claim there is neither a gay gene nor a libidinous gene. Perhaps you should correct them.

 

[KWED]

False equivocation--there are straight people with low libidos also.

There are entirely straight people with high libidos and entirely gay people with low libidos. Your argument is incoherent.

True or false? A person with a higher libido who identifies as straight is more likely to resort to homosexuality in confinement?

Depends on whether they find homosexual sex attractive or satisfying. A straight person with a low sex drive who is fine with gay sex is more likely to have gay sex in prison that a person with a high sex drive who can't bear the thought of gay sex.
And yet again, you are ignoring the important issue of necessity/coercion which have more to do with it than libido.

Once again, you have failed to demonstrate any connection between libido and tendency towards homosexuality, even in the abnormal context of single-sex incarceration.

 

[KWED]

Multiple skeptics on this forum claim there is neither a gay gene nor a libidinous gene. Perhaps you should correct them.

You seem to misunderstand again.
Genetics may play a part in sexual orientation, but there is no evidence for a "gay gene".

 

[ADigitalArtist]

False equivocation--there are straight people with low libidos also.

True or false? A person with a higher libido who identifies as straight is more likely to resort to homosexuality in confinement?

Homosexuality (and heterosexuality) is not an action. If you have a favorite food, the absence of that food doesn't mean the food you eat is now your favorite food. Homosexuality describes the preference for sex with the same sex.

So the answer to your question is false.

Incidentally, a person who likes having sex with either men or women are bisexuals. Which I imagine there are a lot more of than people are comfortable admiting to themselves. But having sex with a man, woman or sex toy doesn't determine your sexuality.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Multiple skeptics on this forum claim there is neither a gay gene nor a libidinous gene. Perhaps you should correct them.

Both my and their statements are correct. Even if epigenetics influenced androgen production which changed the likelihood of being lgbt, that doesn't mean there is a 'gay gene.' Thinking of complex behavioral traits as being coded by a single gene is remarkably oversimplified genetics. Nor are genetics set it stone once we are born (epigenetic switches often change due to environmental stresses after birth.)

 

[SkepticThinker]

Multiple skeptics on this forum claim there is neither a gay gene nor a libidinous gene. Perhaps you should correct them.

You could easily correct them by providing scientific sources that demonstrate your claims are true.
Weirdly, we're all still waiting for that.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There are entirely straight people with high libidos and entirely gay people with low libidos. Your argument is incoherent.

Depends on whether they find homosexual sex attractive or satisfying. A straight person with a low sex drive who is fine with gay sex is more likely to have gay sex in prison that a person with a high sex drive who can't bear the thought of gay sex.
And yet again, you are ignoring the important issue of necessity/coercion which have more to do with it than libido.

Once again, you have failed to demonstrate any connection between libido and tendency towards homosexuality, even in the abnormal context of single-sex incarceration.

It seems you have exchanged "necessity" for "tendency". It's not a "necessity" to have sex. That's evolutionary thinking that we are unable to avoid animal urges.

Regardless, we are far afield from my point, God is infinite love and mercy and wants people to be whole and wholistic.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Homosexuality (and heterosexuality) is not an action. If you have a favorite food, the absence of that food doesn't mean the food you eat is now your favorite food. Homosexuality describes the preference for sex with the same sex.

So the answer to your question is false.

Incidentally, a person who likes having sex with either men or women are bisexuals. Which I imagine there are a lot more of than people are comfortable admiting to themselves. But having sex with a man, woman or sex toy doesn't determine your sexuality.

I'm familiar with that line of argument--a man married for decades to a woman may come out as gay and not bi--because you can have sex with both sexes and not be bisexual, but homosexual, by declaration.

I went from coach to first class last week and told the flight attendant I identify as first class.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Both my and their statements are correct. Even if epigenetics influenced androgen production which changed the likelihood of being lgbt, that doesn't mean there is a 'gay gene.' Thinking of complex behavioral traits as being coded by a single gene is remarkably oversimplified genetics. Nor are genetics set it stone once we are born (epigenetic switches often change due to environmental stresses after birth.)

Androgrens are in both sexes in varied amounts. Are you saying scientists claim androgen production or lack of production drives sexual orientation? And that scientists deny imprinting as is found in the animal kingdom?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Androgrens are in both sexes in varied amounts. Are you saying scientists claim androgen production or lack of production drives sexual orientation? And that scientists deny imprinting as is found in the animal kingdom?

You could actually read the study and find out.

But since I doubt you will: different androgen hormones at different levels at different stages of development cause different results. There is a lot of room for variability and we're learning new influences all the time. Right now I'm researching how androgens effect the expression of adhd in women differently than men.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

a man married for decades to a woman may come out as gay and not bi--because you can have sex with both sexes and not be bisexual, but homosexual, by declaration.

Exactly. Whom you're having sex with, for however long, doesn't mean you prefer it. And sexuality is about preference, not action. Lots of gay people are pressured into heteronormative relationships and take a long time to accept their activity doesn't align with their preferences.

 

[night912]

I'm familiar with that line of argument--a man married for decades to a woman may come out as gay and not bi--because you can have sex with both sexes and not be bisexual, but homosexual, by declaration.

Apparently you are familiar with that argument but familiarity is not what's important within the context of this discussion. What's important, is understanding the argument, which apparently, is what you're lacking. The evidence is what you've said that's in bold.

I went from coach to first class last week and told the flight attendant I identify as first class.

Well, according to your reasoning, you're actually not a coach nor a first class because that happened last week. Just like, by your own reasoning, you are currently not homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual. That is unless if you are in fact currently having homosexual sex atm, which means that you are in fact, gay atm. And that's okay, there's nothing wrong with you having homosexual sex.

 

[night912]

It seems you have exchanged "necessity" for "tendency". It's not a "necessity" to have sex. That's evolutionary thinking that we are unable to avoid animal urges.

So you agree then, that a person's sexual orientation is not dependent on the sex act that they are currently engaging.

 

[pearl]

The new German historical drama “Great Freedom” opens with surveillance footage of a public toilet. The industrial shuddering of the film projector provides the only soundtrack as we—and someone else—watch men enter the toilets and find sexual partners. This scene sets up the movie’s plotline: Hans Hoffmann (Franz Rogowski) will return to prison after yet another violation of Paragraph 175, the law prohibiting sexual contact between men. But it also encapsulates the movie’s themes, and the artistic techniques by which the writer and director Sebastian Miese illustrates those themes.

“Great Freedom” is about the longing for connection, under circumstances where connection with another person will be punished with isolation, no matter how squalid, brief, unintelligible or unfree—not love exactly, or not always, but the result of the same need within us that drives us into love.

The movie’s final sequence takes place in the free world. We see “Great Freedom” for the first time: It’s the name of a jazz club with a sex club underneath. Hans wanders through the little knots of men seeking something in one another’s bodies—always something more than pleasure—and where the movie’s opening scene pushed us to recognize the connection made possible by even the most degraded and policed sexual encounter, this scene pushes us to see the alienation inherent in even the most liberated one.
‘Great Freedom’ is about longing for connection at a dangerous time to be gay | America Magazine