Honey not vegan friendly?

[Father Heathen]

I was browsing around for potato recipes and randomly happened upon a site that listed vegan friendly beers, and some were classified as not being vegan friendly for containing honey. Seriously? How is harvesting honey harmful to the bees? Is it because they're in captivity? They're insects, so it isn't like they're even aware of it. I can respect veganism, but extending it to insects just seems totally unnecessary and excessive. I assume vegans bathe and wash their hands, right? Doing so kills bacteria and other microbes, so where is the line drawn?

 

[Storm]

I used to know a vegan who insisted the bees are mistreated because some die when the combs are moved. She was none to pleased when I asked her how it compared to death rate in the wild....

I thought it was pretty dumb, myself.

 

[Father Heathen]

Insects are pretty much nature's robots; automatons with no emotion or awareness. They don't have a capacity for suffering that higher animals like mammals do, so placing them on the same level does seem rather silly.

Plus, honey is delicious.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Insects are pretty much nature's robots; automatons with no emotion or awareness. They don't have a capacity for suffering that higher animals like mammals do, so placing them on the same level does seem rather silly.

Plus, honey is delicious.

How do you know they don't have awareness?

 

[Madhuri]

Insects are pretty much nature's robots; automatons with no emotion or awareness. They don't have a capacity for suffering that higher animals like mammals do, so placing them on the same level does seem rather silly.

Plus, honey is delicious.

I know that this is the mainstream understanding, but then not too long ago most people (including the science community) believed other species of animal lacked consciousness- and were proven wrong.

I've observed a few insects that shows every sign of awareness and though I could be wrong, I can't be convinced that they lack it entirely. It could also be possible that some insects are more aware than others.

 

[Splarnst]

I imagine that awareness and ability to feel pain are on a spectrum. You speak of it as though it were a binary condition.

 

[darkstar]

It wouldn't really matter. A vegetarian is free to eat things like cheese or honey if they choose. A Vegan is someone that has specifically decided on eating nothing coming from an animal. They don't drink milk or eat cheese because the milk comes from an animal. Therefor it is reasonable to believe that the same would go for honey.
I honestly don't see the sense in it, which is why I'm not Vegan. But I respect their decision, as long as they're not preachy about it.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I know that this is the mainstream understanding, but then not too long ago most people (including the science community) believed other species of animal lacked consciousness- and were proven wrong.

I've observed a few insects that shows every sign of awareness and though I could be wrong, I can't be convinced that they lack it entirely. It could also be possible that some insects are more aware than others.

I agree with you 100%, I also have observed insects showing signs of awareness. For example, if bees feel threatened they attack you. I seen an ant scurry away from my finger when i put my finger next to it, and did it a couple more times.

 

[Penumbra]

I was browsing around for potato recipes and randomly happened upon a site that listed vegan friendly beers, and some were classified as not being vegan friendly for containing honey. Seriously? How is harvesting honey harmful to the bees? Is it because they're in captivity? They're insects, so it isn't like they're even aware of it. I can respect veganism, but extending it to insects just seems totally unnecessary and excessive. I assume vegans bathe and wash their hands, right? Doing so kills bacteria and other microbes, so where is the line drawn?

The definition of a vegan is one who does not use any animal-derived products.

Vegans have different reasons for choosing their lifestyle. Some do it for ethical reasons, some for environmental reasons, some for aesthetic reasons, some for proposed health reasons, and many for a variety of reasons. Vegans avoid honey because honey comes from bees, and bees are animals. Many vegans may believe that the bee can suffer in some way, while others may feel that they do not, but they still don't want the honey.

The line may be drawn at a variety of places for a variety of reasons, depending on whether one is a partial vegetarian, full vegetarian, vegan, or something else. For many vegans, the line is drawn at the edge of the animal kingdom.

 

[Madhuri]

I agree with you 100%, I also have observed insects showing signs of awareness. For example, if bees feel threatened they attack you. I seen an ant scurry away from my finger when i put my finger next to it, and did it a couple more times.

There was an insect in the house the other day and I was trying to get it to walk onto a shoe so i could carry it outside. The little insect crept near and was testing the shoe- touching with foot and antenna, and decided to walk away from it. So i tried to block its escape with another object and it became very still for some moments. He/she spotted an area of escape and went for it.
I kept trying to block it, hoping it would climb onto one of the objects I was holding (im too chicken to pick it up with my hands). Eventually it gave up running and climbed onto the shoe.

 

[Father Heathen]

I imagine that awareness and ability to feel pain are on a spectrum. You speak of it as though it were a binary condition.

I wasn't suggesting that. I'm merely saying that it likely isn't on a level that warrants lamenting.

 

[Father Heathen]

I agree with you 100%, I also have observed insects showing signs of awareness. For example, if bees feel threatened they attack you. I seen an ant scurry away from my finger when i put my finger next to it, and did it a couple more times.

Well of course they have instinctive, programmed responses to stimuli in order to survive. I doubt they make conscious, contemplative decisions.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Well of course they have instinctive, programmed responses to stimuli in order to survive. I doubt they make conscious, contemplative decisions.

Why doubt that they do?

 

[freethinker44]

I'm opposed to vegans because of the genocidal war they have started against plants. I don't know why they hate plants so much that they have decided only to eat plants. Perhaps they are just eating the plants souls to gain their powers, who knows. But one thing is for sure, plants have souls and vegans can't get enough of them. Please people, let's stop the carrot holocaust.

See vegans. This is how you sound.

I should note that I see a difference between a vegan and vegetarian. A vegetarian is someone who has adopted a diet for health reasons and vegan is someone who has adopted a lifestyle and is incredibly annoying.

 

[Otherright]

My wife is a vegan, and we've discussed this before. She told me it was because it was an animal derived food. Usually at supper, she'll call me a murderer. I'll call her a treehugger, then we finish our meal and discuss our day.

 

[Father Heathen]

Why doubt that they do?

Evidence and observation.

 

[Father Heathen]

My wife is a vegan, and we've discussed this before. She told me it was because it was an animal derived food. Usually at supper, she'll call me a murderer. I'll call her a treehugger, then we finish our meal and discuss our day.

If it is murder, then I am at peace with being evil.

 

[Otherright]

If it is murder, then I am at peace with being evil.

As am I. I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned the veggies she's eating were at one time alive and growing. I mention things like the pain sensory tests done on plants with fire, and the fact that just because the cell is shaped different, doesn't mean it doesn't have a semblance of consciousness.

Of course, I'm just messing with her. but ever now and then, if I'm lucky, she'll look up and say, "Great, I'm going to starve." If you can't mess with your wife, who can you mess with.

Ever now again, she'll throw out, "Your the buddhist. Aren't you suppose to be vegetarian?" Then I'll reply, "I never said I was a good buddhist."

 

[Madhuri]

I should note that I see a difference between a vegan and vegetarian. A vegetarian is someone who has adopted a diet for health reasons and vegan is someone who has adopted a lifestyle and is incredibly annoying.

Actually, people are vegetarian for various reasons. For me it's about ethics and morality, not health.

 

[Madhuri]

Well of course they have instinctive, programmed responses to stimuli in order to survive. I doubt they make conscious, contemplative decisions.

You don't have to be able to have complex thinking processes in order to have consciousness.