House Democrat Health Plan

[Kathryn]

So far, all I hear is inflammatory rhetoric from BOTH sides of the political scene.

Maybe if our politicians would give the American public REAL facts and REAL answers about the specifics of their healthcare plans, people would not be so upset. However, facts seem to be sorely lacking. All I'm hearing from the powers that be is what the plan does NOT involve, according to them (no death panels, no euthenasia, no rationing, no tax hikes, etc).

I want answers, specifics, about the plan. I want to know how this huge change will affect my family's healthcare options. I want to know how I will be treated in ten years. I want to know if my children and grandchildren will be shackled with a huge debt, and if not - how are we going to avoid that? I want to know how this reform will be funded. I want to know whether or not my representatives can assure me that my taxes will not go up - or if they will go up, how much, and what will I receive in return? I may decide that it's a good return on my investment and support the plan. Or I may decide otherwise. But I need FACTS.

And I don't want to be called UnAmerican or be accused of sliding into the town hall meeting on Astroturf, or have it implied that I'm a racist just for asking.

By the way, I am an independent who voted for several Democrats in the primaries last year - including a Democrat presidential candidate. I have never voted a straight ticket in my life and don't see that in my future. I carefully weigh platforms, and listen intently to politicians. I research issues, and when I do, I read views from all angles. I often change my opinion after researching an issue.

In other words, I am reasonable. I love my country. I admire the foundations upon which it was built.

And I'm nothing special - there are lots of people like me out here. We just want clear answers from our representatives and President.

 

[PureX]

So far, all I hear is inflammatory rhetoric from BOTH sides of the political scene.

Maybe if our politicians would give the American public REAL facts and REAL answers about the specifics of their healthcare plans, people would not be so upset. However, facts seem to be sorely lacking.

You are right, but there's a reason for this. The plan that Obama has in mind IS a doorway to nationalized health insurance. It is also exactly what we need to do. Unfortunately, it's also going to cut deep into the big fat profit margin that the insurance companies have been cultivating since they killed health care reform under Clinton. And the sad fact is that the members of the congress and senate are mostly all beholding to these big insurance companies for campaign bribe money and are afraid to say out loud that they are proposing real health care reform this time, because that's NOT what the big insurance companies want. They want some watered down, meaningless health care reform, or better still that the government mandate that we all HAVE to buy their over-prices and shoddy health insurance. The politicians are trying to keep the actual proposal hidden for as long as possible because they're all scared of the big insurance companies pulling their support come election time, or worse yet, giving their support to their electoral opponents.

It's all about the bribe money. Everyone knows what's the right thing to do, but they all took the bribe money and now they're afraid of crossing the corporations that bribed them.

Earlier on this thread I posted an interview with a head of public relations of a big insurance company who has been telling the truth about what the insurance companies plan to do to fight this health care reform. And we are seeing that he is exactly correct. They are now doing just what he said they would do.

Here is that interview ...

And we have various other corporate toadies and fools jumping on their band wagon, like Rush Limbaugh and a few others. They do not represent a significant number of american people, but they are good at making a lot of noise, and at getting the media to cover them. So they create the illusion that there is some groundswell happening against health care reform.

All I'm hearing from the powers that be is what the plan does NOT involve, according to them (no death panels, no euthenasia, no rationing, no tax hikes, etc).

Well, these are all the lies that the corporate propaganda machine are spewing, and someone has to keep trying to correct them, or people will begin to believe it. This has been an on-running tactic of the corporate spin boys for a long time.

I want answers, specifics, about the plan. I want to know how this huge change will affect my family's healthcare options. I want to know how I will be treated in ten years. I want to know if my children and grandchildren will be shackled with a huge debt, and if not - how are we going to avoid that? I want to know how this reform will be funded. I want to know whether or not my representatives can assure me that my taxes will not go up - or if they will go up, how much, and what will I receive in return? I may decide that it's a good return on my investment and support the plan. Or I may decide otherwise. But I need FACTS.

No one has all these answers, yet. There will be some trial and error. What we do know, however, is that the present system cannot continue.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Im calling you an elaborate troll based on your posting history, in which you continuously spout right wing talking points and have yet to actually change your opinion on any of them. That is why you seem to be an elaborate troll

Are you applying this standard to yourself as well? Please tell me what opinions you have a different perspective on? Myself, I have changed my opinion on gay marriage while being a member of RF.

As for "not wanting to debate the issues," it is abundantly clear that you either refuse or are flat out not capable of understanding a contrary viewpoint. I don't feel like debating with you because it, quite frankly, does not seem worth my time. The past threads we have done this have not lead to you (or others for that matter) changing your opinion in a meaningful way and I have little reason to think this one will either.

So at the end of the day, the only reason to debate with someone is to change your opponent's view point? That sounds like prothletisation to me.

Yes. Especially when they refuse to change their viewpoint at all.

Using your logic, we should all become Muslim Liberals here at RF.

Then many many Americans are, quite frankly, idiots.

More insults, nice! :sarcastic

 

[Kathryn]

Originally Posted by Kathryn
I want answers, specifics, about the plan. I want to know how this huge change will affect my family's healthcare options. I want to know how I will be treated in ten years. I want to know if my children and grandchildren will be shackled with a huge debt, and if not - how are we going to avoid that? I want to know how this reform will be funded. I want to know whether or not my representatives can assure me that my taxes will not go up - or if they will go up, how much, and what will I receive in return? I may decide that it's a good return on my investment and support the plan. Or I may decide otherwise. But I need FACTS.
No one has all these answers, yet. There will be some trial and error. What we do know, however, is that the present system cannot continue.

Hey, I have a novel idea - let's put together a PRO ACTIVE PLAN rather than a reactive one. As a concerned US citizen and tax payer, I want concrete answers rather than rhetorical spin.

If I was going to apply for a business loan, I would have to present a thorough business plan. If I couldn't show concrete figures, assets and liabilities, demographics, etc that would prove fairly accurately that my business would be financially solid, I wouldn't get the loan.

What the administration is asking for is a huge, huge loan - but they've presented no business plan.

Of course, most "public servants" have never owned a business or run a corporation, so their business skills are a little weak. You don't learn too many sound business principles when you're a community organizer spending other people's money with little or no accountability.

 

[Phasmid]

The NHS rules... I have no fear of having to pay through the nose for treatment.

It's a good idea and it saves lives every... hour...

It's not even constructive criticism comming from the Conservatives. It's like seeing a load of children get jealous in defeat. Grow up...

 

[Kathryn]

Has anyone on this site actually READ the bill?

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress):

Rather than passively accepting pablum from the mass media, may I suggest actually reading the proposed bill?

Hey, I know it's difficult.

Here's another idea: When bills like this one are presented, it should be MANDATORY that our representatives actually READ the bill before voting on it.

A good indicator that a bill is not ready for presentation and voting would be that it's too large, too complicated, or too vague to be clearly understood.

In that case, BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD, guys - give us something we can WORK WITH!

 

[Kathryn]

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress):

Sheeze, has anyone tried to actually READ this crap?????????

I am an educated person with better than average reading and comprehension skills. In fact, for years I wrote policy and procedure manuals and employee handbooks for companies - so believe me, I can both read and write in Bureaucratese.

This bill is virtually unreadable!!!!

In fact, I think that anyone who has to actually read this bill may be protected by the Geneva Convention.

If anyone actually claims to have read this bill in it's entirity, I think I will have to stand up and call them a dirty dog liar. No person could actually read this and at the end of that torture be able to talk comprehensivly.

Something is really wrong with our system when we expect our politicians to be able to represent us when they can't possibly understand and grasp the policies and ramifications of the policies that we expect them to vote for or against.

TIME TO REGROUP.

I've got the feathers - who's bringing the tar?

 

[Kathryn]

A good rule of thumb might be:

If you don't know what you're voting for or against, abstain.

 

[themadhair]

@ Kathryn

If you think the finance bills or the military spending bills or virtually any other piece of major legislation is a simple to read short text then you are being really naïve. The question is why bill complexity has only now become a problem for you?

You claim to want facts and you have the text of the bill…so where is the problem? Oh that’s right – this isn’t about the actual issue on the table is it?

Ffs I’m not even living in your country and I’ve had a gander at the legislation. There are a number of items that, had been truly honest about this topic, would have allayed the fabricated fears you have.

For example, section 102 of the bill protects your right to keep your current coverage if you so choose. Wow. Doesn’t that completely and utterly make so much sense and totally not force you into anything you don’t already have? But you’d never get that information from people not being honest on this issue.

As for the changes being introduced, I’m seeing nothing but good things. Most of the bill is putting restrictions on the insurance companies that benefit the consumer (that’s you by the way). Examples of this include claims being paid in a timely manner and more consumer protections than you could shake a stick at (sections 131-135), a protection for whistleblowers (section 153), provisions to help lower your premiums (pretty much all of subtitle G), provisions for the creation of state level insurance exchanges (section 208), banning the refusal of cover for pre-existing conditions (section 111), the establishment of a public health insurance option to provide more competition (subtitle B), etc. etc.

Truth is there is absolutely nothing stopping any US citizen from learning the details if they wanted to. If someone living outside the US could do it then so can you. So please stop with the “its too complicated” BAWWWW.

 

[themadhair]

I'm completely missing the point here. Is your argument that healthcare is too complicated for the GOP?

In response to your frubal message Rick - I wasn't being funny when I wrote that.

 

[Kathryn]

If you think the finance bills or the military spending bills or virtually any other piece of major legislation is a simple to read short text then you are being really naïve. The question is why bill complexity has only now become a problem for you?

Why are you assuming that it is only NOW a problem for me? I've realized for decades that it's a problem. Why shouldn't I continue to speak out on the matter? You're assuming that I am a conservative Republican. For the record, I am NOT.

You claim to want facts and you have the text of the bill…so where is the problem? Oh that’s right – this isn’t about the actual issue on the table is it?

This IS about the issue on the table - the unreadable, incomprehensible, jargonized, bureaucratic mumblespeak bill is indicative of the pork and drivel that our representatives have been voting "for" or "against" for decades. This bill is proof that they vote, not on issues, but along party lines and for personal advancement. That's why they are so shrill now - their ineptitude is being exposed and they don't like it. And I'm not singling out Democrats here - I mean the vast majority of both parties.

Ffs I’m not even living in your country and I’ve had a gander at the legislation. There are a number of items that, had been truly honest about this topic, would have allayed the fabricated fears you have.

And what fabricated fears are you talking about? Do you know what my "fabricated fears" are? Or are you just making assumptions based on your personal prejudices?

A good rule of thumb should be:
If you don’t know something then find out and stop being a moron intent on halting much need progress by any means necessary – including the maintenance of your personal ignorance.

If you're trying to actually have a meaningful dialogue with me, then you're failing miserably. I don't resort to personal attacks and name calling in debate and I don't lend much credibility to those who do.

I will address the issue you raise though, even if you've raised the issue through a haze of insults - the issue of halting progress through personal ignorance:

I believe our country desperately needs healthcare reform (thanks for asking, by the way). I believe that insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and government entities have made a horrific mess and that we DO need to take a serious look at EACH COMPONENT, re evaluate, and make some major changes.

The problem I have with this bill is that it is too large, too generalized, and it does not appear to clearly outline how it will not create a huge deficit that will, by it's very nature, limit our healthcare options and burden our future generations to an untenable degree.

Unfortunately, I can't vote on this bill. I have to trust my representatives on Capitol Hill to make informed choices and then vote in the best interests of their constituents. So far, I haven't seen ANY indication that ANY of them are taking this approach.

What I see instead is vagueness, defensiveness, and name-calling. Hmmm, when my teenagers act like this, they're usually guilty of something and they're trying to divert attention from their own culpability.

 

[Copernicus]

This IS about the issue on the table - the unreadable, incomprehensible, jargonized, bureaucratic mumblespeak bill is indicative of the pork and drivel that our representatives have been voting "for" or "against" for decades. This bill is proof that they vote, not on issues, but along party lines and for personal advancement. That's why they are so shrill now - their ineptitude is being exposed and they don't like it. And I'm not singling out Democrats here - I mean the vast majority of both parties.

I don't think anyone is saying that representative democracies always produce good laws. This kind of thing has been going on since the founding of the republic. The fact is that lobbyists from both sides of the issue work hard to get their language inserted into the bills. Nobody is going to consider it perfect at the end of the day, but I don't see you proposing any better alternatives. As a citizen, you ought to voice your opinion, but you also need to remember that there are lots of other citizens who disagree with you. The process of making laws under these conditions is bound to be messy. That is why we hire people to represent us when the bills are drawn up. You need to be hounding your congressional representatives for what you want included or removed from the bill.

I believe our country desperately needs healthcare reform (thanks for asking, by the way). I believe that insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and government entities have made a horrific mess and that we DO need to take a serious look at EACH COMPONENT, re evaluate, and make some major changes.

That is exactly what our representatives were hired to do. If they are doing their jobs right, they are reading the details and getting feedback from the public. Some clearly don't do their jobs very well. Also, our news media tends to oversimplify and obscure the issues, but people don't seem to pay as much attention when they report on details. You complain about lack of information, yet you have discovered exactly how to go around the media to get that information. Most people don't bother.

The problem I have with this bill is that it is too large, too generalized, and it does not appear to clearly outline how it will not create a huge deficit that will, by it's very nature, limit our healthcare options and burden our future generations to an untenable degree.

I have to agree with you there, but I think that the President said something very cogent on this point. He said that doing nothing is worse than passing this bill. What we ought to be doing is to influence improvements in it. Rejection is not an option. There are still reforms in it that we need, even if the drug and insurance industries have managed to take out more needed reforms.

Unfortunately, I can't vote on this bill. I have to trust my representatives on Capitol Hill to make informed choices and then vote in the best interests of their constituents. So far, I haven't seen ANY indication that ANY of them are taking this approach.

Then you haven't been paying attention. The town meetings have been taking place, but you seem to have seen the organized disruptions as a reflection of the popular will. Perhaps your particular representatives aren't very good at their job. I know that my Congressman doesn't do a good job, but I have not been on the side of the majority that elected him. So he will vote against my interests. I like my Senators better, but I do not like their wishy washy stands on health care. I prefer a single-payer/public option/insurance reform bill (in that order). I cannot get either senator to say clearly what she supports.

What I see instead is vagueness, defensiveness, and name-calling. Hmmm, when my teenagers act like this, they're usually guilty of something and they're trying to divert attention from their own culpability.

Welcome to democracy. If you can think of a better system of government, let's hear it.

 

[Kathryn]

First of all, THANK YOU, Copernicus, for a great response to my post. I genuinely appreciate your intelligent tone, and frubals are on the way!

Let's continue:

The fact is that lobbyists from both sides of the issue work hard to get their language inserted into the bills. Nobody is going to consider it perfect at the end of the day, but I don't see you proposing any better alternatives. As a citizen, you ought to voice your opinion, but you also need to remember that there are lots of other citizens who disagree with you. The process of making laws under these conditions is bound to be messy. That is why we hire people to represent us when the bills are drawn up. You need to be hounding your congressional representatives for what you want included or removed from the bill.

You've got a great point - if we're not part of the solution, we're part of the problem. I freely admit that the issue of healthcare reform is FAR outside my professional and personal areas of expertise. I would venture to say that applies to most Americans. That is why I am researching the options, studying the issue, and looking at all sides of the situation as best I can.


I know that many, many people may disagree with me at the end of the day. Actually, I find that non threatening and interesting. Especially with this issue, there are so many sides and nuances to it, that even two doctors in the same speciality, same hospital, same ROOM probably won't agree on all points. Heck, if we understood every nuance of this bill, you probably couldn't find two identical twins who agreed on everything it encompasses!

And for the record, I AM making my voice heard to my representatives.

I think that the President said something very cogent on this point. He said that doing nothing is worse than passing this bill. What we ought to be doing is to influence improvements in it. Rejection is not an option. There are still reforms in it that we need, even if the drug and insurance industries have managed to take out more needed reforms

I don't agree with this line of reasoning. "Doing nothing is worse than passing this bill." Sometimes being proactive in a situation full of unknowns and unquantifiable assertions is very dangerous.

We need more time, more options, and more clear answers.

"Seek first to understand" is generally very good advice. Sure, we need healthcare reform, but do we have to push through yet another sweeping bill before we have clear answers and solutions in place?

The town meetings have been taking place, but you seem to have seen the organized disruptions as a reflection of the popular will.

Nope, I know spin when I see it. Both liberal and conservative media outlets, and our elected officials, are focusing more on inflammatory rhetoric and less on factual content. They are all doing us a disservice and I think a lot, a LOT, of Americans realize this. That is one thing that is making so many people so angry - being categorized, demonized, and disenfranchised tends to **** people off- liberals as well as conservatives.

Welcome to democracy. If you can think of a better system of government, let's hear it.

How 'bout a Constitutional Republic?

 

[themadhair]

Why are you assuming that it is only NOW a problem for me?

Because you seem intent on bringing this into this debate rather than discuss the actual topic at hand (i.e. health care reform). But if you have nothing whatsoever to add to the topic of health care then I shouldn’t be surprised by your attitude. The truth is that you are using this irrelevant tangent as a disguise for complete ignorance. That you have displayed the capacity to circumvent that ignorance by showing you can view the legislation yourself, but yet still choose not to discuss anything relevant to the topic, is truly sad.

Why shouldn't I continue to speak out on the matter?

Because it is a personal failing of yours that is neither relevant, nor adds anything of value to, the actual topic at hand – that of health care reform.

You're assuming that I am a conservative Republican.

No, I assumed you were being wilfully ignorant with nothing whatsoever to contribute except broadcasting your self maintained ignorance, and my reply was geared to taking on just that.

This IS about the issue on the table - the unreadable, incomprehensible, jargonized, bureaucratic mumblespeak bill is indicative of the pork and drivel that our representatives have been voting "for" or "against" for decades.

And the fact you shoe-horn this irrelevant off-topic gosa into a thread on health care rather than start a thread pretty much says it all about your honest over this.

This bill is proof that they vote, not on issues, but along party lines and for personal advancement. That's why they are so shrill now - their ineptitude is being exposed and they don't like it. And I'm not singling out Democrats here - I mean the vast majority of both parties.

Now that you have gotten this irrelevant and quite pointless rant off your chest are you going to actually contribute anything of value? Or do you intend to remain angry at such irrelevancies rather than educating yourself and doing something much more productive and meaningful?

And what fabricated fears are you talking about? Do you know what my "fabricated fears" are? Or are you just making assumptions based on your personal prejudices?

Quoting you from earlier in the thread:

I want answers, specifics, about the plan. I want to know how this huge change will affect my family's healthcare options. I want to know how I will be treated in ten years. I want to know if my children and grandchildren will be shackled with a huge debt, and if not - how are we going to avoid that? I want to know how this reform will be funded. I want to know whether or not my representatives can assure me that my taxes will not go up - or if they will go up, how much, and what will I receive in return? I may decide that it's a good return on my investment and support the plan. Or I may decide otherwise. But I need FACTS.

As I said – fabricated fears that could be answered by you taking some personal responsibility and informing yourself. Or you could just sit around whinging about irrelevancies and then getting offended when someone calls you on your bull. The above was a borderline lie on your part. If you genuinely wanted to know how this bill would affect your family’s healthcare options (to take one of the fabricated fears you bring up) then you would have found out already by doing some research. Or would that be too rational a thing to do for you?

If you're trying to actually have a meaningful dialogue with me, then you're failing miserably.

I’m not trying to have a meaningful dialogue with you. Quite frankly what you posted was irrelevant crap that ticked me off because of its sheer level of shallow inanity. I called you out for it. Ffs if a person living in Ireland can learn about the bill then so can’t you. Wise up and take some personal responsibility instead of railing at things that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

I will address the issue you raise though,

InB4MissingThePoint

I believe that insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and government entities have made a horrific mess and that we DO need to take a serious look at EACH COMPONENT, re evaluate, and make some major changes.

The problem I have with this bill is that it is too large, too generalized, and it does not appear to clearly outline how it will not create a huge deficit that will, by it's very nature, limit our healthcare options and burden our future generations to an untenable degree.

InAfterMissingThePoint

If complexity is your only complaint then you disagree with every piece of legislation passed by the US government over the last century. Yes, your argument really is that pointless.
This bill outlines how it gets funding, how that funding is spent, introduces new restrictions on health insurance benefiting the consumer, outlines plan for the future, etc. etc. Your faux concerns are largely addressed in the bill. Get over it and actually do some research.

The irony here is that you seem to be arguing against a problem that is a necessary result of democracy on a nationwide scale. Do you really think a piece of legislation intended to govern 300 million people across 50 states involving dozens of separate agencies and designed to withstand judicial and legal scrutiny can be boiled into a nice easy to understand package for you????? Grow the **** up.

Unfortunately, I can't vote on this bill. I have to trust my representatives on Capitol Hill to make informed choices and then vote in the best interests of their constituents. So far, I haven't seen ANY indication that ANY of them are taking this approach.

You have two choices here.
1) Whinge about everything being too complicated and totally ignore the issue that is on the table (remember that health care reform thing?).
2) Get informed and make relevant points and concerns to your representatives.

You have decided on option 1. It might make you feel better but it is completely pointless.

What I see instead is vagueness, defensiveness, and name-calling. Hmmm, when my teenagers act like this, they're usually guilty of something and they're trying to divert attention from their own culpability.

What I see for you is vagueness and defensiveness. If only you would be more blunt you’d perfectly fit the very descriptions you rail against. If fact, absolutely nothing you have said has anything resembling being specific and you have the legislation in front of you. What does that say?

 

[Copernicus]

I know that many, many people may disagree with me at the end of the day. Actually, I find that non threatening and interesting. Especially with this issue, there are so many sides and nuances to it, that even two doctors in the same speciality, same hospital, same ROOM probably won't agree on all points. Heck, if we understood every nuance of this bill, you probably couldn't find two identical twins who agreed on everything it encompasses!

I don't know what my doctor thinks, but I do know that he is tired of dealing with insurance companies. I have what most Americans would consider a great corporate-sponsored medical plan, but it is even more complicated than the government health plan. My wife just refused to get a test he ordered, because Blue Cross/Blue Shield could not tell us whether it was covered under their plan. His office called them, and he couldn't understand their policy language either. He told us that dealing with the insurance company was our responsibility. The insurance company told us to pay the bill ($270 + zingers they don't tell you about up front) out of our own pocket, and they would make a ruling later (probably with a Ouija board). And this was for a routine test that they covered last year. I'm ready for "socialized medicine". :help:

I don't agree with this line of reasoning. "Doing nothing is worse than passing this bill." Sometimes being proactive in a situation full of unknowns and unquantifiable assertions is very dangerous.

True, but we really have no choice but to reform. The system is broken. My own hope is that this bill will lead to further reforms that do fix the problem. We just need to move off the dime. And there are some good things in the bill that will rein in the insurance industry. I'm still bummed out that Obama cut a deal with the drug industry behind our backs. That wasn't what he promised us during the campaign.

We need more time, more options, and more clear answers.

Before my health insurance plan kills me, please! Look, we have already had a lot of time to watch the current system deteriorate. Corporations outsource jobs to countries that have rational health care in part because workers in those countries don't impose such a burden on their profits. Delay will not bring clearer answers. This is the first time since the early 90s that we have a chance for reform. If it fails, we may need to wait another decade.

"Seek first to understand" is generally very good advice. Sure, we need healthcare reform, but do we have to push through yet another sweeping bill before we have clear answers and solutions in place?

I'm afraid so. Clear answers and solutions will never be there, only another mess like the current one. Delay will only make things worse. The new reform might not prevent things from getting worse, but it will give us some momentum to move in the direction of getting better.

How 'bout a Constitutional Republic?

Unfortunately, this is how a constitutional republic works. It balances a lot of opposing forces. To paraphrase the President again, let's not let the perfect become the enemy of the good (well, less terrible anyway).

 

[Kathryn]

TheMadHair,

You know something - we share some commonalities. We both apparently have the ability to write well and we enjoy witticisms and challenges. We are also probably both a bit sarcastic in "real" life, and we probably both read a lot, from a variety of sources.

If we sat down together at a beer summit, we'd probably find more commonalities.

I'm also sure that we are very different in many ways. I'm sure that you and I both bring different attributes to our lives and communities that benefit others in some way.

One difference, however, that I note is that when you respond to posts, you insist on utilizing personal insults and scathing sarcasm. I personally don't care for that sort of interaction so I choose not to participate in it.

It's a shame that we can't engage in a more civil interaction, because you seem fairly intelligent, and I generally enjoy discussing all sorts of topics with intelligent people, whether we agree or not.

When the topics are treated as discussions on pertinent ISSUES rather than opportunities to insult others on a personal level, both parties can learn a lot from each other. To me, learning others' perspectives and having my own beliefs challenged in a productive way is edifying.

To hurl personal insults back and forth is a colossal waste of time for me. I've moved past that form of communication and it no longer interests me - it hasn't held any charm to me in decades.

However, if that's the sort of interaction you enjoy, go for it! You'll need to find another person to engage it this with you, though.

I hope we understand each other.

Pax.

Kathryn

 

[Kathryn]

Copernicus, I too am very frustrated by insurance companies. I agree that our system needs some significant reforms. I also believe that corruption between our elected officials and corporate America runs so rampant that this reform will be extremely difficult.

This is why I think we should move more cautiously, with more information, more transparency, better, clearer answers.

It's disheartening. The media, our representatives, corporations, research centers, etc are all so tangled and corrupt as a whole, that it's downright scary to put our very lives into their hands.

I know that we've been entrusting our lives to them for hundreds of years, but I think that the reason this particular issue resonates so fiercely with the American public is because it literally impacts every single American (and a large number of illegal immigrants as well) from the moment of conception till we draw our last breath.

Believe me, I know I don't have the answers - but at least I am trying to slog through the media crap that's inundating us to try to find real answers and solutions.

It's like looking for a minnow in a river of salmon swimming upstream. Quite elusive.

 

[Copernicus]

Copernicus, I too am very frustrated by insurance companies. I agree that our system needs some significant reforms. I also believe that corruption between our elected officials and corporate America runs so rampant that this reform will be extremely difficult.

We agree on these points, but I don't see the political situation changing much. So it is important to seize the opportunity for reform when it presents itself.

This is why I think we should move more cautiously, with more information, more transparency, better, clearer answers.

Here is where we have the disconnect. You use the collective term "we", but we are all individuals who have different levels of understanding and different needs. The collective "we" is never going to achieve the state of understanding that you imagine. No matter what you decide, there will always be others pulling in the opposite direction. So, as far as I can tell, you have no argument here for delay. You cannot guarantee that the process will be different the next time the stars align properly. We can only act as individuals who join groups of like-minded individuals to work to shape government policies. To me, it is a lot like voting. I am almost never presented with the kind of representative who will follow all of my wishes. Nevertheless, I still go into that voting booth to choose the better candidate (or lesser of two evils). Delaying my vote until the smartest, most trustworthy candidate comes along makes no sense. I do what little I can to move in the direction I think best.

It's disheartening. The media, our representatives, corporations, research centers, etc are all so tangled and corrupt as a whole, that it's downright scary to put our very lives into their hands.

True, but our lives are in their hands whether we like it or not.

 

[Father Heathen]

Just had to share this somewhere - too juicy.

Whole article here;

Stephen Hawking both British and not dead • The Register

......In perhaps the most amusing effort to discredit US President Barack Obama's plan for nationalized health care - if not the most ridiculous - US financial newspaper Investor's Business Daily has said that if Stephen Hawking were British, he would be dead...................................
"I wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the NHS," Hawking told The Guardian. "I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived."

Adding some more ridiculous claims I've heard:

The healthcare plan will kill off the elderly.
The healthcare plan will kill of disabled kids.
The healthcare plan will enforce euthanasia.
The healthcare plan will enforce abortion.
The healthcare plan will set up death camps.
The healthcare plan won’t be as good non-government schemes such as medicare.
The healthcare plan is evil because its logo has Nazi roots.


And some of the above have been said by actual congress people too. Scary.

Conservatives are notorious for relying upon distortion, deceit and dishonesty when they don't have any facts to stand upon (which is always).

 

[Mr Spinkles]

3 things:

The Republican health plan

Debunking health care lies, by reading the bill

Conservatives, including Sarah Palin, should take Palin's own advice (roughly quoting her): "For the sake of our soldiers, quit makin' stuff up."