How about we defund UNRWA ?

[icehorse]

Please don't give lessons about human rights.

Gaza shows hypocrisy the West about human rights.

I'm not saying that Israel is without blame. Do you get that? I have said this before.

And I WILL speak out concerning human rights. IMO Islam around the world has a horrible human rights history. IMO Islam treats women extremely badly. I think it's safe to say thay around the world Islam commits gender apartheid. And the same goes for gays.

 

[Godobeyer]

I'm not saying that Israel is without blame. Do you get that? I have said this before.

At least list it negatives, but you try hard to put on focus on Islam and Muslims.

And I WILL speak out concerning human rights. IMO Islam around the world has a horrible human rights history. IMO Islam treats women extremely badly. I think it's safe to say thay around the world Islam commits gender apartheid. And the same goes for gays.

Please clarify to me your point here.

So you try to say Palestinian deserve to be killed because they follow Islam?

Islam didn't allow to kill children and women of enemy,is not Torah said it's ok to kill children and women of enemy during the war?

Original teaching Christianity and Judaism and dont allow homosexual, so they were commit apartheid gender!

Apartheid racism of Israel is Ok, but muslims ban gay is bad, are ok in mind?

What's relation ship about Genocide in Gaza and Islam teaching?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I'm not saying that Israel is without blame. Do you get that? I have said this before.

And I WILL speak out concerning human rights. IMO Islam around the world has a horrible human rights history. IMO Islam treats women extremely badly. I think it's safe to say thay around the world Islam commits gender apartheid. And the same goes for gays.

I think we can see where these discussions with Muslims will go. Do not look for them ever to find any fault at all with Hamas or any justification for Israel. I've yet to see that from even one of them.

And now we see that some feel that only they understand or can speak to human rights despite representing a religion that famously has cut off hands, stoned people to death, thrown people off of buildings and towers, and burned people alive:

• A Thief's Hand Is Amputated In Iran As Islamic Punishment
• https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...be-punishment-for-adulterers-especially-women
• ISIS Hurls Gay Men Off Buildings, Stones Them: Analysts
• Hundreds watch as Isis burns caged sex slaves to death

Also, I don't expect any to acknowledge that I am likely correct that Arabs attacking Israel will never help Arabs but will always harm them. They seem to prefer attacking whatever the outcome.

This is a good example of hive mentality. It literally resembles an agitated hive of wasps - monolithic in its thinking and no goal but to sting whatever the cost to the hive. It's understandable in insects, but some human beings do better. Some learn that standing down generates the better future, which they consider preferable to violence and slaughter even if that better future is suboptimal.

I really don't understand that culture. Are they unable to figure that out, or are they indifferent to making futile gestures that bring death and destruction to them? I can't say, but neither speaks well of such a culture.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It seems like the Arabs might be being manipulated from afar to do Iran's bidding (Persians are not Arabs nor are they living close to Israel or directly affected by it) but take the punishment of retaliation alone.

It doesn't make any difference .. that era of playing divide and rule is no longer so
easy to achieve. We are all Muslims.
The West has 'picked off' the sunnis in the area, as they are in the majority, and so the
result of that policy is that Shias have more power.

..and now, of course, it is the shia who are the evil ones.

Muslims aren't that stupid .. we know what's going on.

It's also interesting that the Iranians hate the Israelis enough to keep having proxies do their dirty work for them.

Nope .. they are not 'proxies' .. they are local resistance groups. Hamas is not shia, for example.
..and in any case, there are many different groups in Palestine, involved in armed struggle.

Why? Indonesians are predominantly Muslims, but don't seem to feel the need to defend the Arabs..

Indonesia is not in West Asia ( Middle East) .. what are you talking about?

Those opinions are not a part of my analysis because unless they translate to military support for the Arabs, they're irrelevant.

That is presumably because you are an 'orientalist' and value western lives more than others.

They'll do what they want.

Who will?

 

[muhammad_isa]

It seems as though "sometimes" you like the UN and "sometimes" you don't? Did you agree with the UN in 1947 when they created Israel and a two-state solution?

It had nothing to do with me at the time .. I wasn't even born.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I really don't understand that culture. Are they unable to figure that out, or are they indifferent to making futile gestures that bring death and destruction to them? I can't say, but neither speaks well of such a culture.

It is you that are "unable to figure it out", or more likely, you don't want to..

You assume that the US / Israel will always be able to dominate the region with military force,
with its scores of military bases around the world.

Empires rise and fall, for a variety of reasons .. arrogance being one of them.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It doesn't make any difference .. that era of playing divide and rule is no longer so easy to achieve. We are all Muslims. The West has 'picked off' the sunnis in the area, as they are in the majority, and so the result of that policy is that Shias have more power.

..and now, of course, it is the shia who are the evil ones.

Muslims aren't that stupid .. we know what's going on.

Nope .. they are not 'proxies' .. they are local resistance groups. Hamas is not shia, for example.
..and in any case, there are many different groups in Palestine, involved in armed struggle.

Indonesia is not in West Asia ( Middle East) .. what are you talking about?

That is presumably because you are an 'orientalist' and value western lives more than others.

I didn't expect you to address my point.

Can we assume that you support the idea of Muslims attacking Israel for the next several generations and perhaps beyond no matter how little that does for them or how much it does to them?

My point was that that it has been and for the foreseeable future will continue to be the case that such a strategy does more harm to Muslims than their perceived enemies. Do you care? It seems not.

If you don't care about that - a reasonable assumption since you won't discuss it - why should others care more than the Muslims what they do to themselves thinking emotionally rather than rationally and strategically? I don't expect an answer from you.

We had a saying in medicine that there is no value in caring about a patient's health more than he does. I feel the same here. While regrettable, if the Muslims want to make decisions that result in Muslim slaughter, whose choice was that?

 

[icehorse]

At least list it negatives, but you try hard to put on focus on Islam and Muslims.

No! As I've said many times, I think this situation is extremely complex. I'm trying to see all sides.

It had nothing to do with me at the time .. I wasn't even born.

You brought it up.

 

[muhammad_isa]

While regrettable, if the Muslims want to make decisions that result in Muslim slaughter, whose choice was that?

Well, that's obvious nonsense .. I would agree that Muslims often slaughter each other, but
we are not discussing that.
We are discussing the fact that 10's of 1000's of women and children are being slaughtered
in Gaza and Lebanon .. the main reason being that the Israeli lobby in the US dominates
their political institutions.

They cannot succeed .. yes, wealth and power appears to be the 'b all and end all', but that
is false.
..but perhaps you can't see that, being an atheist.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You brought it up.

Yes I brought up the UN, because if you hadn't noticed, it is still the main source of
international law, and hence peace.

..or do you think that the US is the broker of peace?

 

[icehorse]

Yes I brought up the UN, because if you hadn't noticed, it is still the main source of
international law, and hence peace.

..or do you think that the US is the broker of peace?

So do you think that guessing what i'm thinking will lead to mutual understanding and peace? Please stop guessing what I'm thinking, you're really bad at it.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Yes I brought up the UN, because if you hadn't noticed, it is still the main source of
international law, and hence peace.

..or do you think that the US is the broker of peace?

Peace to all,

So true, Muhammad, God Bless you, Sir.

At least list it negatives, but you try hard to put on focus on Islam and Muslims.

"So do you think that guessing what i'm thinking will lead to mutual understanding and peace?"
"No! As I've said many times, I think this situation is extremely complex. I'm trying to see all sides." Icehorse

"To me we can see the One and only side." Stephen Andrew

"Empires rise and fall, for a variety of reasons .. arrogance being one of them." Muhammad_isa

To me rationally, only One Mother understands World Order and Mary is The Broker of Peace.

To me in 2018 when the US moved the the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, the US took itself off the peace table as negotiator for peace between Islam and Israel, It's like US slapped Islam in the face religiously when US sided politically and financially with Israel to support Israel as a Ally?

When the UN separated on 1948? the two state, The UN undid what Jesus came to do, to unite. The UN separated back to two states and created division ununiting all mankind as brothers back to cousins disrupting unity for all, rationally to me, that's what they did, but we know we are not to judge but only ourselves.

It's like, rationally how the UN perfected what was derived from infinite wisdom, what God did to unite for all, not just for the UN and the UN slapped The God of Jacob, Abraham, Isaac the One God in the face, socially, politically, financially, economically to US and whoever who says they are fighting a "Holy" war? and "Made wisdom better? No, not to me. To me, like America, The New Promised land is in The New Temple through the New Eve becoming and becoming again in all mankind, the mind of God becoming in all mankind and belongs to the "indigenous" people from the "Exodus" Greek for "The Road Out" the picked to carry the "Provided" Sacrifice are picked to carry forward and in the most reverent way, the "Provided" New Living Sacrifice, The Host that transforms flesh into immortality from created mortal and becomes again transfigured becoming again the image of The Greator God on contact of all or any of the senses, and we know we are not to judge others and only ourselves.

God told Adam and Eve and has always said, "I will Provide the Living Sacrifice" for atonement.
Muhammad reminds us all God's people: He called all people God's people.

To me in logic and through Faith, Ishmael and Isaac are brothers through through the One Father in two names, Abraham and Abram and cousins to all mankind through two different mothers, Sarah and Hagar. With One Father it two names, Abraham and Abram and different Mothers, Sarah and Hagar, they are cousins to all mankind in Faith and Spirit through the Old Covenant Living Sacrifice of Animals. The rationality follows to me, in And through the one God and Father we become one in being together through the One Son, Jesus for the Father by the Christ with a new and only one mother, Mary becoming brothers and sisters through the New Living Sacrifice in the New Temple of God in all mankind, the One Body of Christ becoming again, glorified and transfigured the the New Temple unto the image of the Creator God for The One Father. Through The One God's only Son, the New Living Sacrifice from the spirit through the flesh for the souls of all mankind in the New Temple, and all over the world, together, from the power of the One Holy Spirit and God for all mankind to become again, united as one in being together through the One Son, The Christ is the New Temple and the New Living Sacrifice that transforms and glorifies and transfigures all mankind from the One God and One Father for all united in the One God in being from the One Love fulfilled eternal through The One Mother.

I respectfully request reuniting all as one for all who can help, thanks in advance.

And we know not to judge others, only ourselves, right?

Peace always,
Stephen

 

[Godobeyer]

No! As I've said many times, I think this situation is extremely complex. I'm trying to see all sides.

I don't see you, try to see all sides.
You always put the blame on Palestinians, despite they are the most victims.
Which i considered clear biased.
There no shop for fairness, it's inner issue.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

So true, GodObeyer, God Bless you.

"There no shop for fairness, it's inner issue." GodObeyer

"The Prophet Muhammad reminded his people of many things, including:

Sincerity: He warned that lack of sincerity with humanity would have a negative effect on the afterlife.
Tolerance: He said, “There is no compulsion in religion”.
Rising above evil: He showed how to rise above evil, especially when faced with hostility.
Responding with empathy: He taught to respond to challenges with calmness and empathy, and to actively listen to others' concerns.
Patience: He taught to be patient and willing to find common ground.
God's people: He called all people God's people.
Major events: He delivered a sermon that mentioned major events that would take place between then and the Day of Resurrection." Search Labs AI

Through The One God's only Son, the New Living Sacrifice from the spirit through the flesh for the souls of all mankind in the New Temple, and all over the world, together, from the power of the One Holy Spirit and God for all mankind to become again, united as one in being together through the One Son, The Christ is the New Temple and the New Living Sacrifice that transforms and glorifies and transfigures all mankind from created by the One God and One Father for all united in the One God in being from the One Love fulfilled eternal through The One Mother.

"There no shop for fairness, it's inner issue." GodObeyer

لأن قلب هذا الشعب قد غلظ قلبه، وثقلت آذانه، وأغمض عيونه. لئلا يبصروا بأعينهم، ويسمعوا بآذانهم، ويفهموا بقلوبهم، ويرجعوا فأشفيهم. ولكن طوبى لعينيك يا الله السامعين لله لأنهما تبصران، وطوبى لآذانك الله السامعين لله لأنهما سامعون.
li'ana qalb hadha alshaeb qad ghalaz qalbahu, wathaqalat adhanuhu, wa'ughmid euyunahu. lialaa yubsiruu bi'aeyunihim, wayasmaeuu biadhanihim, wayafhamuu biqulubihim, wayarjieuu fa'ashfihim. walakinn tubaa lieaynayk ya allah alsaamiein lilah li'anahuma tabsirani, watubaa ladhanik alllh alsaamieayn lilah li'anahuma sameun.

Peace always,
Stephen
Mystic

 

[Godobeyer]

What kind of God permit this!!
What kind of people justify this!!

Spoiler: Palestinians children and families killed by IDF

View attachment 99465
View attachment 99464
View attachment 99463

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

To me God creates the choice to love or not to love and gives the freedom to man to choose.

What kind of Choice we choose has created the greatest gift, Love, from the Power of the Divine Spirit, flesh and spirit created with internal tempters to choose to choose love or not.

And fulfilled eternally by The Divine Spirit, fulfilled in only to be able to choose Love.

Peace always,
Stephen

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Their differences aren't relevant to the issue of what works for them and what doesn't. Egypt stopped attacking and eventually, there was an end to Israeli retaliations following those attacks. Hamas attacked recently and met with sever retaliation. One can learn from that or not.

Alright so tell me why it doesn’t work for the PA in westbank? The violence against them increased the last years so it seems to me your logic of accepting defeat is not working. Unless you are of the opinion that the palastinan should just accept living their life as it is now?

The American Indians were faced with a similar dilemma when the encountered the Europeans. At first they fought, and their fight was a righteous and justified one. But somewhere along the line, they decided that they preferred a less violent captivity of sorts on reservations to violent death. It's still a moral issue for them - they were wronged. And they're still angry. My wife and I were almost killed once driving through their lands by another vehicle deliberately coming at us head-on (we were in a sports car, so obviously not part of the tribe).

They chose? I mean if you kill almost all indigenous people of America and they stop fighting means they chose to not fight. I would say say they didn’t want to go extinct rather then them having a choice

 

[Kathryn]

What kind of God permit this!!
What kind of people justify this!!

Spoiler: Palestinians children and families killed by IDF

View attachment 99465
View attachment 99464
View attachment 99463

None of these links work for me.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I don't see you, try to see all sides.

While many Westerners have condemned the Israelis in the news and on this thread, I haven't seen a single Muslim on this thread (or in the news either for that matter) make any effort to see things from the Israeli perspective, even to explain why they think it invalid or inappropriate for Israel to retaliate. Nor has one commented on the horrible result for the Palestinian people following the October 7th attacks.

I'm not commenting here on who is right or wrong, but presently. on the monolithic and unilateral mode of thought I'm seeing, and formerly, on the lack of strategy involved in striking out when you are outgunned.

Alright so tell me why it doesn’t work for the PA in WestBank? The violence against them increased the last years so it seems to me your logic of accepting defeat is not working. Unless you are of the opinion that the Palestinian should just accept living their life as it is now?

I don't know the history or understand the dynamics there or who is to blame. I don't know who is poking at whom. Maybe the Israelis are attacking Palestinians there without provocation, or maybe the Palestinians are restive and provoking the Israelis.

I'm referring to making strategic choices given circumstances. If attacking the Israelis can result in gains, then that is a potentially strategic choice. If it can only result in increased hardship for Palestinians, then it seems like a poor choice. If standing down results in a better life, that would be my choice. If I found myself a chattel slave or a POW, I'd have to decide whether active resistance was to my advantage or whether compliance was. Hopefully, I'd make a rational decision and not one based in rage.

They chose? I mean if you kill almost all indigenous people of America, and they stop fighting means they chose to not fight. I would say they didn’t want to go extinct rather than them having a choice

Agreed. That's a survival reaction.

I can't emphasize enough that my point is about making strategic versus emotional choices. I don't see the Arabs switching to the former any time soon. I expect them to continue attacking whatever price they pay for that

I would agree that Muslims often slaughter each other, but we are not discussing that.

Neither was I. I was discussing decisions made by Muslims like Hamas that harm other Muslims like their civilian Palestinian neighbors.

We are discussing the fact that 10's of 1000's of women and children are being slaughtered in Gaza and Lebanon .. the main reason being that the Israeli lobby in the US dominates their political institutions.

That is also not what I am discussing. I am discussing their options and the ramifications of choosing to fight versus those of standing down. The Muslims here are beginning to convince me that their culture says to fight whatever the circumstances and whatever the consequences. None seem interested in any other approach, and if it's a strong cultural value here on RF, I assume that that is also the mindset of most Palestinians.

Hey, it's their call. They'll do what they want and reap the consequences of that. Hopefully, they're thinking rather than just reacting. Hopefully, they see some way that resistance helps them. I don't.

As you've seen by my mention of American Indians, chattel slaves, and POWs, for me, this isn't an Israeli-Palestinian thing. It's captor-captive thing and an exercise in game theory, the "branch of applied mathematics that provides tools for analyzing situations in which parties, called players, make decisions that are interdependent. This interdependence causes each player to consider the other player's possible decisions, or strategies, in formulating strategy."

In chess, it's looking a few moves ahead. In every case, it considers the likely results of this choice versus that one when making decisions. None of it is a moral consideration - just a strategic one.

Does that happen with you? Do you do that? Are you doing that now, or is your preference for how the Palestinians respond purely emotional? I'm simply not seeing any of that coming from any of the Muslims posting in this thread and attributing it to cultural differences that I don't expect to see overcome.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

What Jesus came to do is make brothers out of cousins for us all.

The keys to the kingdom are given to those who realize Jesus is God. Shared in power with the person of the Holy Spirit and the person of the father separate but equal in power, and together as one God in being in One Mother.

It’s hard to back a war politically for some that are fighting a holy war for others rationally.

Romans 36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen​

The new promised land is the new temple. The body of Christ shared in all mankind becoming again the image of the creator, from the One God through the love of the one Mother in the Son for the One Father.

He came to fulfill Faith and morality and the intelligence of creation follows. What would Jesus do in all cases of fulfilled, faith, and morality.

And we all know, we have the power to judge only ourselves and do not judge others.

Can we all see this is the only way to stop the war?

The more abundant life He promised is at least without war.

Peace always,
Stephen