How and why did you reject christ?

[Shadow Wolf]

I was correct in two points regarding you, and other skeptics. 1) You left for theology reasons, rather than walked away from a relationship with a person, Jesus. 2) You turned to immorality after leaving.

How so very Christian of to to assume and judge and know people better than they know themselves. Wow, that myst be so nice, you know me so well, so much better than I know myself, that you know I left theology as a whole after I left the Church even though I was a religious neo-Pagan for several years after.
And you've still not explained why it makes one difference what I did after. It's not why I left, but once I did leave "thou shalt not" no longer to me. Those things I didn't do before, as they aren't appropriate for Christians, but once I wasn't a Christian it made no sense to live according to its policy. Or, another way to look at it, living in California I no longer live by Indiana law and policy and I did buy myself an alcoholic beverage yesterday, a Sunday, something Indiana prohibits. But I'm in California/not a Christian no, so what I do now doesn't matter the same like it did when I lived in Indiana/was a Christian.
And, no, I never turned to immorality. I turned away from the restrictions and "thou shalt not." Morality I did not forsake, and indeed my sense of morality has improved and gotten significantly better at considering the effectsvof my actions on others. And I have to actually think about these things as I no longer have a book telling me how it has to be and how I must behave. And, just so you know, religious people do not hold tha high ground when it comes to morality.
Darley and Batson: Good Samaritan Study

There was no correlation between "religious types" and helping behavior. The only variable that showed some effect was "relgion as a quest". Of the people who helped, those who saw religion as a quest were less likely to offer substantial help than those who scored low on this statement.

Religious or not, we all misbehave

Religious and nonreligious people are equally prone to immoral acts.

Are religious people more moral?

No matter how we define morality, religious people do not behave more morally than atheists, although they often say (and likely believe) that they do.
...
Studies conducted among American Christians, for example, have found that participants donated more money to charity and even watched less porn on Sundays. However, they compensated on both accounts during the rest of the week. As a result, there were no differences between religious and nonreligious participants on average.
Likewise, a study conducted in Morocco found that whenever the Islamic call to prayer was publicly audible, locals contributed more money to charity. However, these effects were short-lived: Donations increased only within a few minutes of each call, and then dropped again.

Numerous other studies have yielded similar results. In my own work, I found that people became more generous and cooperative when they found themselves in a place of worship.

Interestingly, one’s degree of religiosity does not seem to have a major effect in these experiments. In other words, the positive effects of religion depend on the situation, not the disposition.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

King Hezekiah is not an "eternal father", he merely had a lengthened lifespan. (Isaiah 9) - here a baby is born who is an eternal father, wonderful counselor and prince of peace - Hezekiah was a wartime leader.


There are verses that describe the betrayal by a close friend and the silver pieces prophecy also.

"The eternal Father is the Prince of Peace" is indeed a name of a person. It is quite common for Jews to take names regarding God. Daniel means God is my judge, for example. Elijah means My God is [the tetragrammaton].

The one verse about pieces of silver (in Zechariah 11) is about being paid for legitimate work. It is not a messianic prophecy!!!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That is an argument from silence. Rather, yachid was used in the 13 principles, not echad, because Rambam like all non-Messianic sages rejects the sometime use of echad for plurality. How do you feel about echad being used to describe two persons, not one, in Genesis 2:42?

It is not an argument from silence. Try again.

Genesis 2:42? Genesis 2 doesn't have 42 verses.

 

[BilliardsBall]

How so very Christian of to to assume and judge and know people better than they know themselves. Wow, that myst be so nice, you know me so well, so much better than I know myself, that you know I left theology as a whole after I left the Church even though I was a religious neo-Pagan for several years after.
And you've still not explained why it makes one difference what I did after. It's not why I left, but once I did leave "thou shalt not" no longer to me. Those things I didn't do before, as they aren't appropriate for Christians, but once I wasn't a Christian it made no sense to live according to its policy. Or, another way to look at it, living in California I no longer live by Indiana law and policy and I did buy myself an alcoholic beverage yesterday, a Sunday, something Indiana prohibits. But I'm in California/not a Christian no, so what I do now doesn't matter the same like it did when I lived in Indiana/was a Christian.
And, no, I never turned to immorality. I turned away from the restrictions and "thou shalt not." Morality I did not forsake, and indeed my sense of morality has improved and gotten significantly better at considering the effectsvof my actions on others. And I have to actually think about these things as I no longer have a book telling me how it has to be and how I must behave. And, just so you know, religious people do not hold tha high ground when it comes to morality.
Darley and Batson: Good Samaritan Study

Religious or not, we all misbehave

Are religious people more moral?

You wrote: "And, no, I never turned to immorality. I turned away from the restrictions and "thou shalt not.""

By the Bible's definitions, you are immoral. Per this particular book. Is that true or untrue?

By your definitions, I've judged you, so I'm immoral. True. I can admit that.

 

[BilliardsBall]

"The eternal Father is the Prince of Peace" is indeed a name of a person. It is quite common for Jews to take names regarding God. Daniel means God is my judge, for example. Elijah means My God is [the tetragrammaton].

The one verse about pieces of silver (in Zechariah 11) is about being paid for legitimate work. It is not a messianic prophecy!!!

You are claiming that Hezekiah's name was "The eternal Father is the Prince of Peace"? The way Daniel means "El is my master?" Where is this name used for Hezekiah? Where is Hezekiah a Wonderful Counselor? How would we as Jews date to say Hezekiah IS the mighty God?

Jeremiah used silver to buy a field. Judas returned silver to the leaders of the people, who used it to ironically buy Jeremiah's field, where Judas ironically killed Himself, having betrayed the innocent Yeshua.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It is not an argument from silence. Try again.

Genesis 2:42? Genesis 2 doesn't have 42 verses.

I'm sorry, I meant to write Gen 2:24 and not 42.

Echad is linked to G_d in the Hebrew scriptures, including, of course, the shema. Sometimes echad is "first", sometimes "one", sometimes "plural unity" as in Genesis 2:24.

I've been thinking about the subject more deeply, perhaps Maimonides used yachid in the 13 articles because of the Hebrew scriptures? I can share some verses besides the Shema where echad is used for God, and we both know elohim is also frequently used, which meant plural gods among the goyim.

Do you have some Hebrew scriptures verses regarding God as yachid? That would help make RAMBAM's case, but I'm having trouble thinking of any.

 

[Harel13]

To paraphrase, RAMBAM, in his zeal to keep his distinct against persecutors, said "Ha Shem made a mistake choosing echad and not yachid," a clear indication that this great sage KNEW echad implied a plural God. The 13 principles come over a millennium after people were asking Yeshua if He was the Son and God.

Hi @BilliardsBall I don't know if you've simply forgotten to answer me or if I'm on your ignore list for some reason, so last try - where'd you see Rambam write anything along the lines of Hashem making a mistake in choosing echad and not yachid? I have Rambam's 13 principles in Hebrew in front of me right now, and this is what he says: "והיסוד השני - יחודו יתעלה. והוא, שזה שהוא עלת הכל - אחד. לא כאחד הסוג ולא כאחד המין ולא כאיש המורכב האחד אשר יתחלק לאחדים רבים ולא אחד כגוף הפשוט האחד במנין אשר יקבל החלקה לאין סוף אלא הוא יתעלה אחד באחדות שאין כמותה בשום פנים וזה היסוד השני, הוא שמורה עליו מאמר "שמע ישראל ה' אלוקינו ה' אחד"." - I don't know whether you know Hebrew or not, but Rambam uses the word Yachid only once in this passage - the rest of time just Echad. Therefore, I don't know how you reached your conclusion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

By the Bible's definitions, you are immoral. Per this particular book. Is that true or untrue?

I no longer accept the Bible as a source of morality. My standards have been upgraded to a lack of violence, a lack of misogyny, a lack of threats and severe punishments, and no slavery allowed.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You are claiming that Hezekiah's name was "The eternal Father is the Prince of Peace"? The way Daniel means "El is my master?" Where is this name used for Hezekiah? Where is Hezekiah a Wonderful Counselor? How would we as Jews date to say Hezekiah IS the mighty God?

Jeremiah used silver to buy a field. Judas returned silver to the leaders of the people, who used it to ironically buy Jeremiah's field, where Judas ironically killed Himself, having betrayed the innocent Yeshua.

One of Hezekiah's names is "A Wonderful Counselor is the Mighty God." Again, there is nothing untoward about this name.

Again, there is no similarity between getting paid silver for legitimate work, and getting paid silver for betraying someone.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm sorry, I meant to write Gen 2:24 and not 42.

Echad is linked to G_d in the Hebrew scriptures, including, of course, the shema. Sometimes echad is "first", sometimes "one", sometimes "plural unity" as in Genesis 2:24.

I've been thinking about the subject more deeply, perhaps Maimonides used yachid in the 13 articles because of the Hebrew scriptures? I can share some verses besides the Shema where echad is used for God, and we both know elohim is also frequently used, which meant plural gods among the goyim.

Do you have some Hebrew scriptures verses regarding God as yachid? That would help make RAMBAM's case, but I'm having trouble thinking of any.

What I'm saying is that Rambam believed that God was an "absolute and unparalleled unity." THAT is his second of the thirteen Principals of the Jewish Faith. So it is obvious how Rambam interpreted the context of Echad in the Shema.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Hi @BilliardsBall I don't know if you've simply forgotten to answer me or if I'm on your ignore list for some reason, so last try - where'd you see Rambam write anything along the lines of Hashem making a mistake in choosing echad and not yachid? I have Rambam's 13 principles in Hebrew in front of me right now, and this is what he says: "והיסוד השני - יחודו יתעלה. והוא, שזה שהוא עלת הכל - אחד. לא כאחד הסוג ולא כאחד המין ולא כאיש המורכב האחד אשר יתחלק לאחדים רבים ולא אחד כגוף הפשוט האחד במנין אשר יקבל החלקה לאין סוף אלא הוא יתעלה אחד באחדות שאין כמותה בשום פנים וזה היסוד השני, הוא שמורה עליו מאמר "שמע ישראל ה' אלוקינו ה' אחד"." - I don't know whether you know Hebrew or not, but Rambam uses the word Yachid only once in this passage - the rest of time just Echad. Therefore, I don't know how you reached your conclusion.

I've been seeking the quote online, as I read it many years ago and don't have some of my print books any longer.

Rambam distinced our Jewish people during times of persecution, in part with the 13 articles.

Ask yourself why he chose yachid when this term is never used of God in Tanakh!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I no longer accept the Bible as a source of morality. My standards have been upgraded to a lack of violence, a lack of misogyny, a lack of threats and severe punishments, and no slavery allowed.

I understand. My findings are that former Christians who are active in promoting skeptcism, are to a person, people who 1) reject Bible morality 2) live flaunting that rejection (it's not necessary, for example, for singles who've left the church to fornicate--as if their evolved animals only, with no self-control, but they do so) 3) have never left the church because they left a relationship with Jesus, but only leave religion/a pastor they liked and followed, etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

One of Hezekiah's names is "A Wonderful Counselor is the Mighty God." Again, there is nothing untoward about this name.

Again, there is no similarity between getting paid silver for legitimate work, and getting paid silver for betraying someone.

Where is this name of ETERNAL FATHER used for Hezekiah, apart from Isaiah's prophecy? For example, Jacob is renamed Israel and this name is used in Tanakh (for the person, not all the Israelites) numerous times.

Of course, there is another prophecy that a child will be born in BETHLEHEM who is ETERNAL (Micah 5:2). Hezekiah was not born in BETHLEHEM, nor was he eternal.

Nor did you respond to my statement that Hezekiah, THE PRINCE OF PEACE, was a wartime king. David was told he could not finish the Temple because a man of peace would do so, Yeshua said the Temple of His body would be raised three days after His crucifixion, He further predicted the destruction of Herod's Temple 40 years before it occurred.

I did not say the silver prophecy of Zechariah is in play, I said Jeremiah bought a field with silver, in which Judas hung himself after rebuying Akeldama field with betrayal silver, completing the prophecy.

If you'd like to continue discussing these things, please respond to what I write, rather than simply quoting Jews for Judaism website apologetics!

 

[BilliardsBall]

What I'm saying is that Rambam believed that God was an "absolute and unparalleled unity." THAT is his second of the thirteen Principals of the Jewish Faith. So it is obvious how Rambam interpreted the context of Echad in the Shema.

Echad is linked to G_d in the Hebrew scriptures, including, of course, the shema. Sometimes echad is "first", sometimes "one", sometimes "plural unity" as in Genesis 2:24.

Do you have some Hebrew scriptures verses regarding God as yachid? That would help make RAMBAM's case, since echad is used hundreds of times in Tanakh, but yachid is never used, not ONE TIME, to describe God! You still don't see what Rambam has done?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

people who 1) reject Bible morality

Killing those who worship other gods is immoral. Slavery is immoral. I can continue.

2) live flaunting that rejection (it's not necessary, for example, for singles who've left the church to fornicate--as if their evolved animals only, with no self-control, but they do so)

Answering a question you are asked is not flaunting it.

3) have never left the church because they left a relationship with Jesus, but only leave religion/a pastor they liked and followed, etc.

Yes, we know you like to make assumptions. I had a relationship with Christ. I broke up with him, evicted the Holy Ghost from my heart, and cut the Father out of my life.

 

[Harel13]

I've been seeking the quote online, as I read it many years ago and don't have some of my print books any longer.

Rambam distinced our Jewish people during times of persecution, in part with the 13 articles.

Ask yourself why he chose yachid when this term is never used of God in Tanakh!

While I agree that some of what Rambam wrote was to distance Jews from heretical beliefs, I think it's outrageous to suggest that Rambam meant in any way that God made a "mistake" in His phraseology. On the contrary, because Christian thought rose in the world and became a powerful entity, it caused confusion for some of the Jews - hence the use of a synonym to emphasize the point and hence the need of writings that helped distance Jewish thought from such beliefs.

Side-note: What are your thoughts on the verse in Zech. 14:9: "And the LORD shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall the LORD be One, and His name one."?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Where is this name of ETERNAL FATHER used for Hezekiah, apart from Isaiah's prophecy? For example, Jacob is renamed Israel and this name is used in Tanakh (for the person, not all the Israelites) numerous times.

Of course, there is another prophecy that a child will be born in BETHLEHEM who is ETERNAL (Micah 5:2). Hezekiah was not born in BETHLEHEM, nor was he eternal.

Micah 5:2 doesn't refer to Hezekiah, but to the Messiah.

"This verse refers to the Messiah, a descendant of David. Since David came from Bethlehem, Micah's prophecy speaks of Bethlehem as the Messiah's place of origin. Actually, the text does not necessarily mean the Messiah will be born in that town, but that his family originates from there. From the ancient family of the house of David will come forth the Messiah, whose eventual existence was known to God from the beginning of time." Will Messiah will be born in Bethlehem?

Nor did you respond to my statement that Hezekiah, THE PRINCE OF PEACE, was a wartime king.

I have responded more than once. Hezekiah's names make statements about *God.* The ETERNAL FATHER is the Prince of Peace. Not Hezekiah. Do you at last get it?

I did not say the silver prophecy of Zechariah is in play, I said Jeremiah bought a field with silver, in which Judas hung himself after rebuying Akeldama field with betrayal silver, completing the prophecy.

This can't work, for the reasons I've already given.

If you'd like to continue discussing these things, please respond to what I write, rather than simply quoting Jews for Judaism website apologetics!

Actually, this is the first post that I've quoted Jews for Judaism, or even visited that site. If I quote jews for judaism, I use quotation marks and I cite.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Echad is linked to G_d in the Hebrew scriptures, including, of course, the shema. Sometimes echad is "first", sometimes "one", sometimes "plural unity" as in Genesis 2:24.

Do you have some Hebrew scriptures verses regarding God as yachid? That would help make RAMBAM's case, since echad is used hundreds of times in Tanakh, but yachid is never used, not ONE TIME, to describe God! You still don't see what Rambam has done?

Do you have thousands of years of Jewish understanding of the text? No, you don't. You are missing that. You are a Johnny come lately who thinks you can simply read it and know what it means. That's not good enough.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Killing those who worship other gods is immoral. Slavery is immoral. I can continue.

Answering a question you are asked is not flaunting it.

Yes, we know you like to make assumptions. I had a relationship with Christ. I broke up with him, evicted the Holy Ghost from my heart, and cut the Father out of my life.

On what basis do you judge slavery and the Bible immoral (including things which only happened thousands of years ago) but fornication that you do today -- which can kill via STDs -- moral?

You cannot evict the Spirit from your life if you were born again. If you were born again, you have eternal life with Jesus! But by certain behavior, biblically speaking, you may be shortening your earthly life.

 

[BilliardsBall]

While I agree that some of what Rambam wrote was to distance Jews from heretical beliefs, I think it's outrageous to suggest that Rambam meant in any way that God made a "mistake" in His phraseology. On the contrary, because Christian thought rose in the world and became a powerful entity, it caused confusion for some of the Jews - hence the use of a synonym to emphasize the point and hence the need of writings that helped distance Jewish thought from such beliefs.

Side-note: What are your thoughts on the verse in Zech. 14:9: "And the LORD shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall the LORD be One, and His name one."?

Zechariah, including chapter 14, prophesies Yeshua as Lord and God--they will look upon Him as an only son whom they've pierced.

I hear what you're saying about Rambam, however, he didn't use yachid as a synonym for echad, because it's not a synonym. You should recognize 1) yachid is NEVER used for God in Tanakh 2) yachid is mostly used in Tanakh to emphasize the singular nature of an ONLY SON.