How and why did you reject christ?

[Shadow Wolf]

Which is a distortion of the word as I said while assuming because I do not use the word like you do I did not have any similar experiences.



Distortion of words to mean something outside the definition of that word. It is a nice way of covering up talking to yourself in your head and getting emotional over a bronze age text.

Thanks for showing us not to waste our time in helping you to try and understand sense you clearly have no interests in that, only insisting your own thoughts on is the only correct one.

 

[Luna Marie]

Thank you for that. What do you do/believe now that helps you out? (If you want to answer)

I am pagan / pantheist , I believe that God is energy consciousness . I also believe in reincarnation , Instead of a hell fire place that people go to when they die .... I believe that the only way to learn from your mistakes is to experience and learn . This has helped me understand life in a whole new light . Also to realize that I don't need to save everyone . Because we are all going through a learning experience .

 

[BilliardsBall]

What is telling is your implicit 'No True Scotsman.'

Atheists--all of them I've interviewed--and all of them at this forum--never had a relationship with Jesus. I did NOT say they weren't ex-Christians! I will say Jesus can touch you or me personally, apart from religious exercise.

 

[BilliardsBall]

A lot of people including myself walked away from christ. Religion just means you practice what you preach. If not, anyone can go around saying they serve god but what do they DO when they say they serve him. So, they should be one and the same.

The thing is, many have because they felt they were lied to, christ was fake, or so have you. I've not met any person who said "yes. I 'know' christ as a Fact; and, I walked away, because..."

Its like one rejects the need to be a mathematician. Just because they reject that need and it doesn't apply to their lives, doesn't mean two and two doesn't equal four. I'm wondering if people think that way.

So, you walked away from an imaginary or fake Christ, which is different than walking away from Christ.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Atheists--all of them I've interviewed--and all of them at this forum--never had a relationship with Jesus. I did NOT say they weren't ex-Christians! I will say Jesus can touch you or me personally, apart from religious exercise.

Probably true for so many, and Jesus Christ was just an incidental player for me, as I suspect it is for many, when we just can't accept the top-level proposals - of any particular religion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So, you walked away from an imaginary or fake Christ, which is different than walking away from Christ.

That doesn't make sense. Rephrase your question.

 

[Shad]

Thanks for showing us not to waste our time in helping you to try and understand sense you clearly have no interests in that, only insisting your own thoughts on is the only correct one.

You are assuming I do not know what you mean instead of dismissing the rational for using that word. Try again.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That doesn't make sense. Rephrase your question.

You claim Jesus doesn't exist, so you didn't walk away from an actual relationship, but a set of religious concepts. Exactly my point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You claim Jesus doesn't exist, so you didn't walk away from an actual relationship, but a set of religious concepts. Exactly my point.

I said god/deity did not exist. Jesus is a human. Why wouldn't he exist?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I said god/deity did not exist. Jesus is a human. Why wouldn't he exist?

You didn't walk away from a relationship with him, my point about lapsed, but never born again, Christian adherents.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You didn't walk away from a relationship with him, my point about lapsed, but never born again, Christian adherents.

You don't know that, though. All you know is what I'm telling you online and the biases you have about rituals and the church. If I told you my personal experiences, it would be judged just the same.

One thing I do love about the church among other things is the idea that people "can" come back to christ. So, they feel if you are already born again through baptism (set the ritual/water aside for a minute-thats not the point), you'll always have a way back to christ. So, from my experiences, it's a much more healthy way of seeing relationship with god and christ when you view people has those who can get back up after falling.

Although I never go back to worshiping god, that point of view I highly respect.

But, no. I would share but sounds like I'd be judged so, that's basically it. You don't have to hate every relationship you've been in. Unless its abusive, which for me it was not, I'm indifferent to it. Hard to understand "and" that does not mean it isn't true.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Atheists--all of them I've interviewed--and all of them at this forum--never had a relationship with Jesus. I did NOT say they weren't ex-Christians! I will say Jesus can touch you or me personally, apart from religious exercise.

I know an atheist who had a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" at one time. He had been very devout, a real activist in the church. I can vouch for his "relationship" with Jesus because I had many talks with him during his Christian year. I don't know what happened, honestly. There was no crisis of faith. He just basically turned around one week, and said that he realized that many of the inconsistencies he had noticed were only solved if there were no God.

Now you have to understand that I don't believe Jesus is out there for us to have a relationship with. I think that my friend BELIEVED he had a relationship with him, but that he was mistaken. To the extent he had something which was true was the extent he had a relationship with GOD and only thought it was Jesus he was talking to. In Judaism we call this shi-tuf, which means association.

I guess my point is that the idea that some Christians have that you can never "know Christ," never be a "True Christian" and then fall away, is just baloney. It happens.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I know an atheist who had a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" at one time. He had been very devout, a real activist in the church. I can vouch for his "relationship" with Jesus because I had many talks with him during his Christian year. I don't know what happened, honestly. There was no crisis of faith. He just basically turned around one week, and said that he realized that many of the inconsistencies he had noticed were only solved if there were no God.

Now you have to understand that I don't believe Jesus is out there for us to have a relationship with. I think that my friend BELIEVED he had a relationship with him, but that he was mistaken. To the extent he had something which was true was the extent he had a relationship with GOD and only thought it was Jesus he was talking to. In Judaism we call this shi-tuf, which means association.

I guess my point is that the idea that some Christians have that you can never "know Christ," never be a "True Christian" and then fall away, is just baloney. It happens.

Respectfully, there are several issues here:

1) Did you talk about his communion/relationship with Jesus or merely his being "very devout", which is different? I must tell you that it's not a few atheists I've sampled, but many. They walked away from religion, not a relationship.

2) Obviously, as a born again Christian who knows Jesus, I say a relationship may be had. I'm also a Jewish Christian, and appreciate the endless prophecies that prove Yeshua is the Jewish Mashiach, that led me to accept this relationship.

3) You say there was no crisis of faith, but walking from a relationship IS a faith crisis; walking away from perceived inconsistencies is a religious or existential crisis--"my religion doesn't have the right answers," and not "my Jesus isn't responding to me now."

4) There are many reasons why a Jewish person may change religion, for example, satisfaction in inter-marriage. However, atheists tend to leave churches for moral reasons--they indulge moral whims (sin) after exiting the church. Where is your friend now?

Finally, your statement, "the idea that some Christians have that you can never "know Christ," never be a "True Christian" and then fall away, is just baloney..." belies the fact that in my amateur field research--as a Christian--this is absolutely true. For example, the dozens of atheists who walked out of church, all of them for moral and religious reasons and never from a personal relationship with the risen Savior. You are making an assertion for which I do not see your evidence. I've interviewed hundreds, even thousands, of people as an evangelist.

You've never had a relationship with Jesus, is that correct? So how do you claim I can't have one? Are your experiences the only valid experiences? Do you interact with G_d apart from Jesus? Would you respond if I judged your relationship with G_d, "that's baloney", from a Christian perspective? Be fair, and kind... I'll be the same to you. I don't resent you for making comments, but I think if you've never pursued a relationship with Yeshua as a Jew, you should be more respectful of those who do.

BB.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You don't know that, though. All you know is what I'm telling you online and the biases you have about rituals and the church. If I told you my personal experiences, it would be judged just the same.

One thing I do love about the church among other things is the idea that people "can" come back to christ. So, they feel if you are already born again through baptism (set the ritual/water aside for a minute-thats not the point), you'll always have a way back to christ. So, from my experiences, it's a much more healthy way of seeing relationship with god and christ when you view people has those who can get back up after falling.

Although I never go back to worshiping god, that point of view I highly respect.

But, no. I would share but sounds like I'd be judged so, that's basically it. You don't have to hate every relationship you've been in. Unless its abusive, which for me it was not, I'm indifferent to it. Hard to understand "and" that does not mean it isn't true.

I was responding based on your own statements earlier in this thread.

People are complicated, but this issue isn't. Either you had a relationship with Christ and left for one reason only--sin--and are backslidden--or walked away from a religion, not a relationship. Before you answer, if you had a relationship, then not pursuing that relationship on an active basis, or honoring the Sabbath or a dozen other things that come to mind, would be sin.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was responding based on your own statements earlier in this thread.

People are complicated, but this issue isn't. Either you had a relationship with Christ and left for one reason only--sin--and are backslidden--or walked away from a religion, not a relationship. Before you answer, if you had a relationship, then not pursuing that relationship on an active basis, or honoring the Sabbath or a dozen other things that come to mind, would be sin.

I walked away from the relationship. Im not in a place and situation that i can accidently sin. Relationships aren't one size fits all. I never had a bad experience.

I rather follow my heart. We may like a lot of things but that doesn't mean it's better for our health.

It has nothing to do with religion

--
Since I haven't been raised to believe and only practiced four years it wasn't a big lost. Many people fall in guilt because society, parents, etc say they made the wrong decision or at fault. It's sad but I'm blessed not to have that.

Sin doesn't need to be reason to leave Christ. Guilt, ignorance, etc aren't the only reasons either. Some are very aware and experience a real relationship with Christ and they choose to walk away (or reject if one likes a stronger word). Nothing wrong with that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Respectfully, there are several issues here:

1) Did you talk about his communion/relationship with Jesus or merely his being "very devout", which is different? I must tell you that it's not a few atheists I've sampled, but many. They walked away from religion, not a relationship.

As a Christian, he would appeal to me, and a good deal of that appeal would be his "knowing" that he had the truth based upon having "a personal relationship with Jesus." He believed that this was something that couldn't be debated since it was experiential, a kind of love affair. He would ask, how can you have a relationship if Jesus doesn't exist?

2) Obviously, as a born again Christian who knows Jesus, I say a relationship may be had. I'm also a Jewish Christian, and appreciate the endless prophecies that prove Yeshua is the Jewish Mashiach, that led me to accept this relationship.

I'm deeply concerned to find a Jewish brother in the Jesus camp, but the rule here is no proselytizing. I believe that there aren't "endless" prophecies -- that Christians just see what they want to see. If you want to start a separate thread on this in the General Religious Debates section, I'll look for it.

3) You say there was no crisis of faith, but walking from a relationship IS a faith crisis; walking away from perceived inconsistencies is a religious or existential crisis--"my religion doesn't have the right answers," and not "my Jesus isn't responding to me now..

Well all I can say is that he says there was no faith crisis. He simply slipped into a "no God" ideation. Therefore there was NO Jesus to not respond. And any honest person will admit that there are some questions to which their religion does not hold the answers. Most of us learn to live with it (rather than slip into atheism). If you aren't admitting this, then you are in denial.

4) There are many reasons why a Jewish person may change religion, for example, satisfaction in inter-marriage. However, atheists tend to leave churches for moral reasons--they indulge moral whims (sin) after exiting the church. Where is your friend now?

He is still the moral crusader that he always was. He simply argues from a logical perspective than from a religious one.

Finally, your statement, "the idea that some Christians have that you can never "know Christ," never be a "True Christian" and then fall away, is just baloney..." belies the fact that in my amateur field research--as a Christian--this is absolutely true.

Sorry, but its just not my experience. When I talk to converts to Judaism, who are almost always ex-Christians, we get all sorts. Many are "nominal" Christians, sure. But others are what you might call "true believers," who really suffered when they discovered that Jesus wasn't real; some cried -- it was like their world fell apart. Judaism picked up the pieces and made them whole.

You've never had a relationship with Jesus, is that correct? So how do you claim I can't have one? Are your experiences the only valid experiences? Do you interact with G_d apart from Jesus? Would you respond if I judged your relationship with G_d, "that's baloney", from a Christian perspective? Be fair, and kind... I'll be the same to you. I don't resent you for making comments, but I think if you've never pursued a relationship with Yeshua as a Jew, you should be more respectful of those who do.

BB.

Of course I have a relationship with God apart from Jesus.

I'm not trying to pooh pooh your experience with Jesus. I just think that it is a form of psychological dissociation plus a kind of associating Jesus with the true God. I realize that it seems very real to you, and that for all practical purposes, it works. I'm not in this forum to destroy it.

The fact that you are a Jew puts you into a different category, as Judaism teaches that shi-tuf is not allowed for Jews. But I can't go into that, as proselytism is not allowed. If you ever want to discuss that with me, we can PM. My assumption is that you are not interested.

For me, as Jew, I stick with the Shema -- Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai ECHAD. I have said these words, I still say these words, and they will be the last words on my dying lips.

 

[BilliardsBall]

As a Christian, he would appeal to me, and a good deal of that appeal would be his "knowing" that he had the truth based upon having "a personal relationship with Jesus." He believed that this was something that couldn't be debated since it was experiential, a kind of love affair. He would ask, how can you have a relationship if Jesus doesn't exist?

I'm deeply concerned to find a Jewish brother in the Jesus camp, but the rule here is no proselytizing. I believe that there aren't "endless" prophecies -- that Christians just see what they want to see. If you want to start a separate thread on this in the General Religious Debates section, I'll look for it.

Well all I can say is that he says there was no faith crisis. He simply slipped into a "no God" ideation. Therefore there was NO Jesus to not respond. And any honest person will admit that there are some questions to which their religion does not hold the answers. Most of us learn to live with it (rather than slip into atheism). If you aren't admitting this, then you are in denial.

He is still the moral crusader that he always was. He simply argues from a logical perspective than from a religious one.

Sorry, but its just not my experience. When I talk to converts to Judaism, who are almost always ex-Christians, we get all sorts. Many are "nominal" Christians, sure. But others are what you might call "true believers," who really suffered when they discovered that Jesus wasn't real; some cried -- it was like their world fell apart. Judaism picked up the pieces and made them whole.

Of course I have a relationship with God apart from Jesus.

I'm not trying to pooh pooh your experience with Jesus. I just think that it is a form of psychological dissociation plus a kind of associating Jesus with the true God. I realize that it seems very real to you, and that for all practical purposes, it works. I'm not in this forum to destroy it.

The fact that you are a Jew puts you into a different category, as Judaism teaches that shi-tuf is not allowed for Jews. But I can't go into that, as proselytism is not allowed. If you ever want to discuss that with me, we can PM. My assumption is that you are not interested.

For me, as Jew, I stick with the Shema -- Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai ECHAD. I have said these words, I still say these words, and they will be the last words on my dying lips.

Thank you.

How does Judaism "put together their pieces"? Community/fellowship? Something else?

It is compelling to me that ECHAD is also in Genesis 2:24, my wife and I are ECHAD (a plural oneness).

Yeshua taught adherence to Ha Shem, not ****uf. He claimed to fulfill Messianic prophecies, and as crucified for claiming oneness with Ha Shem. This is the sole accusation made against Him by the Parushim that stuck!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I walked away from the relationship. Im not in a place and situation that i can accidently sin. Relationships aren't one size fits all. I never had a bad experience.

I rather follow my heart. We may like a lot of things but that doesn't mean it's better for our health.

It has nothing to do with religion

--
Since I haven't been raised to believe and only practiced four years it wasn't a big lost. Many people fall in guilt because society, parents, etc say they made the wrong decision or at fault. It's sad but I'm blessed not to have that.

Sin doesn't need to be reason to leave Christ. Guilt, ignorance, etc aren't the only reasons either. Some are very aware and experience a real relationship with Christ and they choose to walk away (or reject if one likes a stronger word). Nothing wrong with that.

e

I see. May I ask why you walked away from your former friend/relation Jesus? I'm having trouble conceiving why someone would without the desire to stray in sin. Thanks.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

e

I see. May I ask why you walked away from your former friend/relation Jesus? I'm having trouble conceiving why someone would without the desire to stray in sin. Thanks.

It was detrimental to my mental and physical health. I'm being honest here. I do know what a lot of people want me to believe and tell me biblical passages to support it.

I don't care for belief based on human sacrifice regardless the interpretation of it. (Religion isn't a factor in this) I was siting in front of jesus at the Eucharist and thought, I don't even believe his father even existed. I never have. It took awhile in this relationship with the Eucharist (religion aside) and just said hey, I understand. This isn't for me.

Sacraments of christ: baptism, confirmation, and communion, bring people together so that jesus would be present. When jesus is present once the body has commune, everyone sits at their lord's table to commune with christ. So, communion is the tie that keeps everyone together in christ and the sacrament of confirmation is saying that they want jesus to be their lord and savior. That's the bare bones of Mass. Without believing in christ's father, being in Mass (communion with brothers and sisters in christ) was an insult.

The thing is too, I can't really tell you from a protestant view whether or not I was christian. Catholic denomination says once you are baptized (religion aside), you're one in christ. They believe if you walk away, you're not at fault.

After reflection, I took communion for the last time, said "hey. it is what it is." and left. A lot of people follow because that's what they know. Some because that's what they are told. Now I understand how they feel that way. Christianity is a very possessive faith. I'm just very glad that I can observe and experience things of my own choice and walk away just as well.

You'd have to try to look at it from another's perspective. I don't agree every religion is "perfect" for the believer. That's like saying life is perfect. I'm sure believers of all faiths: christian, Hindu, whatever, can find challenging aspects of their faith or things that they may not agree with that challenges them to a better relationship with god or so have you. I'm just too open to follow anyone.

Also. Worship (putting something or someone higher than myself) just doesn't feel right. If the idea, etc, isn't equal, it's not worth my following.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@BilliardsBall

The only sin I committed, now I think of it, is rejection of christ. I think that's the worse sin if I'm not mistaken.