How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[free spirit]

And here in lies the biggest problem with the rest of the world.
You are holding Israel to a higher standard than anyone else in the world.

One Palestinian dies and it's a massacre committed by the evil Israelis in their attempt to commit genocide, yet 16 Israelis die and it is a victory against the vicious Zionist oppressors.
Israelis get blamed for a Palestinian setting fire to his own sheep or olive garden. The world is claiming that Gazans are starving, with little trade being allowed into the strip, when, in fact, we have seen evidence to the contrary. Israel gets blamed for restricting the type of aid that goes into Gaza, yet people choose to ignore that Egypt is implying the same. Israel gets blamed for the lack of medical care the Palestinians are getting, yet again, people choose to ignore the fact that it was the PA that put this restriction on its' own people.

Right, Israel is the truly evil one.
My point:
If the Israelis must get past losing land they bought from the Ottomans, which was stolen from them between 1918-1929, then the Palestinians should get over losing the same land, that they stole from it's rightful owners ,when Israel took it back in 1967.

You are not human, or you consider the Jews to be super human the "chosen people of God" because you ignor the fondamental birthright of a people, and natural justice. Since the Jews come out of Egypt they have entered the promise land with the sole intention to steal, destroy and kill the people there, I see that after 4000 years nothing has changed.

 

[Enoughie]

You are not human, or you consider the Jews to be super human the "chosen people of God" because you ignor the fondamental birthright of a people, and natural justice. Since the Jews come out of Egypt they have entered the promise land with the sole intention to steal, destroy and kill the people there, I see that after 4000 years nothing has changed.

So that was supposedly some 3500 years ago. The Palestinians are actually also those Jews that remained in the land, later converted to Christianity, and then to Islam.

So how is this relevant to the discussion?

Both Jews and Palestinians are those people who allegedly came there to "steal, destroy and kill the people."

(I say allegedly because the only record of those supposed events is in a book of fiction - ie. the Bible. There is no other evidence to support that these events actually took place 3500 years ago. It could be entirely fabricated myths by those people)

Also, how is this any different from the British colonization of Australia - which I believe did not happen 3500 years ago, but rather quite recently?!

Did the British not come to Australia to "steal, destroy and kill"?

Where is the "natural justice" there?

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Rakhel]

You are not human, or you consider the Jews to be super human the "chosen people of God" because you ignor the fondamental birthright of a people, and natural justice. Since the Jews come out of Egypt they have entered the promise land with the sole intention to steal, destroy and kill the people there, I see that after 4000 years nothing has changed.

Where did I say that Jews were super-human?
I don't know where you got that from what I said. It is like you are seeing something other than what I said. Did you even read it or are you just assuming that I hate Muslims because I accuse them of the same injustices you are accusing the Israelis of?

Let's see if i can make this simple, or finally realize this is a waste of time.

My husband's family(a Jewish family, mind you) bought land from the Ottoman Empire more than 500 years ago.
The lived there peacefully, along side Muslims, for centuries. Yes there were skirmishes. Yes, Arabs and Jews fought with each other, but it was nothing like what happened after WWI. Lies were spread that the Jews were taking over and killing Muslim children for their blood.(Sound familiar?)
My husband's grandfather was given a choice-leave or be killed.(Does this sound familiar? It should.) To save his family, he left.
Wars broke out. Jordan took land not belonging to it. (The Old Jewish Quarters comes to mind.) Jordan keep that land for years, denying Palestinians citizenship or even a country to call its own. More lies told by the Arabs of what those evil Jews will do to their children, even though most of them knew better, and left. Another war broke out and Israel took back what belonged to them.


Yes, the Jewish people have done horrible things, but so has every other nation on this planet. To hold the Israeli nation to a higher standard than you would yourself is, not only hypocritical, but giving yourself a reason to look down on them because they didn't meet your expectations.

Jews are just people. Plain and simple.

Oh, and BTW, I think you forget that the ancestors of Moses and Jacob were from Canaan and what is now called Iran. I can also show you pamphlets written by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, several in fact, that admits The mount that the Dome site, was the ancient site that belongs to the Jews.

 

[free spirit]

So that was supposedly some 3500 years ago. The Palestinians are actually also those Jews that remained in the land, later converted to Christianity, and then to Islam. So why form a Jewish state

So how is this relevant to the discussion?

Both Jews and Palestinians are those people who allegedly came there to "steal, destroy and kill the people."

(I say allegedly because the only record of those supposed events is in a book of fiction - ie. the Bible. There is no other evidence to support that these events actually took place 3500 years ago. It could be entirely fabricated myths by those people) Moses was a Jew he recorded those events, if they were fabricated myths that is one more reason for abolishing the state of Israel.

Also, how is this any different from the British colonization of Australia - which I believe did not happen 3500 years ago, but rather quite recently?!

Did the British not come to Australia to "steal, destroy and kill"?

Where is the "natural justice" there?

Yes I believe 1/4 of a million were killed, but there was nothing to destroy, aborigeny did not have even a village, But I arrived 45 years ago therefore I am no guilty but a litle enbarrassed because I am a beneficiary of their evil dids. Our PM recently said sorry to them. What can I do.

 

[Rakhel]

You are not human, or you consider the Jews to be super human the "chosen people of God" because you ignor the fondamental birthright of a people, and natural justice. Since the Jews come out of Egypt they have entered the promise land with the sole intention to steal, destroy and kill the people there, I see that after 4000 years nothing has changed.

I just had a "DUH!!!" moment. You don't care what I have to say because it doesn't mesh with what you want the facts to be.
Please try to read what I say before assuming I am saying what you want me to say.

 

[uu_sage]

I love God's Jewish children and I love Jewish tradition but I strongly disagree with Zionism. Israel maybe a Israeli state but it is not a Jewish state. Jewish tradition makes it very clear that they are to welcome foreigners into their midst including God's Palestinian children. They have forgotten that God's Jewish children were at one time strangers in a weird land and that they had once born the injustice of slavery and oppression. Abraham's Tent was said to be open to all God's children no matter in what direction they were coming from. They have neglected the spirit of the prophets including Jeremiah, Amos, and Micah. The Lord in scripture says- I am the Lord your God who delivered you out of the house of slavery in Egypt you shall have no other Gods beside me. God makes it clear that there is to be no other God than the God of justice and liberation. Yes it is sad the injustices that God's Jewish children have suffered including the Holocaust but that doesn't give them a justification for oppressing the Palestinians . I am a strong advocate of the two state system with recognition of all holy sites.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I love God's Jewish children and I love Jewish tradition but I strongly disagree with Zionism. Israel maybe a Israeli state but it is not a Jewish state. Jewish tradition makes it very clear that they are to welcome foreigners into their midst including God's Palestinian children. They have forgotten that God's Jewish children were at one time strangers in a weird land and that they had once born the injustice of slavery and oppression. Abraham's Tent was said to be open to all God's children no matter in what direction they were coming from. They have neglected the spirit of the prophets including Jeremiah, Amos, and Micah. The Lord in scripture says- I am the Lord your God who delivered you out of the house of slavery in Egypt you shall have no other Gods beside me. God makes it clear that there is to be no other God than the God of justice and liberation. Yes it is sad the injustices that God's Jewish children have suffered including the Holocaust but that doesn't give them a justification for oppressing the Palestinians . I am a strong advocate of the two state system with recognition of all holy sites.

Amen brother

 

[fallingblood]

Beautiful. And just what I expected. You see, when I said:



I considered that as just his general attitude toward the subject. But now you all clearly see that ignoring facts (and the people who present them) is actually a matter of policy with Senedjem.

It is also his policy never to provide any evidence for his vile and hateful propaganda.

Well, now you're in good company, because he blocked me as well and as everyone here knows, I'm just simply awesome. :beach:

Really though, I've enjoyed what you've posted in this thread. Before reading your posts, as well as others, I was not aware of the history of modern day Israel. I was under the false assumption that the whole reason there was an Israel was simply because of WWII. I was not aware it was more complicated than that.

During my next semester in college, I'm going to have to write a couple of papers on subjects relating to religion. I think the development of the state of Israel may be my focus.

 

[fallingblood]

I love God's Jewish children and I love Jewish tradition but I strongly disagree with Zionism. Israel maybe a Israeli state but it is not a Jewish state. Jewish tradition makes it very clear that they are to welcome foreigners into their midst including God's Palestinian children. They have forgotten that God's Jewish children were at one time strangers in a weird land and that they had once born the injustice of slavery and oppression. Abraham's Tent was said to be open to all God's children no matter in what direction they were coming from. They have neglected the spirit of the prophets including Jeremiah, Amos, and Micah. The Lord in scripture says- I am the Lord your God who delivered you out of the house of slavery in Egypt you shall have no other Gods beside me. God makes it clear that there is to be no other God than the God of justice and liberation. Yes it is sad the injustices that God's Jewish children have suffered including the Holocaust but that doesn't give them a justification for oppressing the Palestinians . I am a strong advocate of the two state system with recognition of all holy sites.

I highly suggest reading the entire thread. It has a lot of great information that I don't think many people are generally aware of.

One point that I want to point out is that Israel is not meant to be a religious state. Yes, they are Jewish, but that does not mean they follow Judaism.

 

[free spirit]

Where did I say that Jews were super-human?
I don't know where you got that from what I said. It is like you are seeing something other than what I said. Did you even read it or are you just assuming that I hate Muslims because I accuse them of the same injustices you are accusing the Israelis of?

Let's see if i can make this simple, or finally realize this is a waste of time.

My husband's family(a Jewish family, mind you) bought land from the Ottoman Empire more than 500 years ago.
The lived there peacefully, along side Muslims, for centuries. Yes there were skirmishes. Yes, Arabs and Jews fought with each other, but it was nothing like what happened after WWI. Lies were spread that the Jews were taking over and killing Muslim children for their blood.(Sound familiar?)
My husband's grandfather was given a choice-leave or be killed.(Does this sound familiar? It should.) To save his family, he left.
Wars broke out. Jordan took land not belonging to it. (The Old Jewish Quarters comes to mind.) Jordan keep that land for years, denying Palestinians citizenship or even a country to call its own. More lies told by the Arabs of what those evil Jews will do to their children, even though most of them knew better, and left. Another war broke out and Israel took back what belonged to them.


Yes, the Jewish people have done horrible things, but so has every other nation on this planet. To hold the Israeli nation to a higher standard than you would yourself is, not only hypocritical, but giving yourself a reason to look down on them because they didn't meet your expectations.

Jews are just people. Plain and simple.

Oh, and BTW, I think you forget that the ancestors of Moses and Jacob were from Canaan and what is now called Iran. I can also show you pamphlets written by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, several in fact, that admits The mount that the Dome site, was the ancient site that belongs to the Jews.

You must be out of your mind if you think that history give you the right to claim it as Jewish property. Or you must be living in the fairy-tales of your religion.
I truly simpatize with you and your people: but the fact that a Jewish family once lived there doesn't make that land Jewish.
At present today the Palestinians people are suffering for the comfort of the Jews, today that is not right.
It is not too late to make them part of your nation with equal rights stop this cicle of hate, recognise that you are the intruder, therefore is up to you to make peace or get out of other people house.

 

[free spirit]

I highly suggest reading the entire thread. It has a lot of great information that I don't think many people are generally aware of.

One point that I want to point out is that Israel is not meant to be a religious state. Yes, they are Jewish, but that does not mean they follow Judaism.

So why they need to be there.

 

[Rakhel]

You must be out of your mind if you think that history give you the right to claim it as Jewish property. Or you must be living in the fairy-tales of your religion.
I truly simpatize with you and your people: but the fact that a Jewish family once lived there doesn't make that land Jewish.
At present today the Palestinians people are suffering for the comfort of the Jews, today that is not right.
It is not too late to make them part of your nation with equal rights stop this cicle of hate, recognise that you are the intruder, therefore is up to you to make peace or get out of other people house.

WOW!! Is all I have to say.

Look, if they wanted to be a equal part of the larger whole that would be great! However, this is not something the Arab League wants. As Autodictic pointed out, it is easier to use a political pawn then it is to surrender and it is not the Israelis who are using them. They have been offered equal rights, with no loss to their human or spiritual rights. Land has been offered to be returned, many times over, by different PMs. And, yet, every offer is turned down every time. Because the offer just isn't big enough for the powers that be.
The Arab leaders, not the Palestinians, want right-of-return for Arabs into Israel. They want equal rights for all Palestinians, and all land "stolen" by the Israeli(i.e. Eilat to Haifa) returned to them.
This is all fine and dandy, but, the same conditions should be applied in the reverse.
Jews should be granted a right-of return to the Arab nations that kicked them out, equal rights, and all the land stolen from them. This includes the recent Jewish refugees from Yemen(who were hunted down just for being Jewish).And we must not forget the Beta Israel from Ethiopia

 

[free spirit]

I just had a "DUH!!!" moment. You don't care what I have to say because it doesn't mesh with what you want the facts to be.
Please try to read what I say before assuming I am saying what you want me to say.

Yes I also had a "DUH !!!" moment. We are dealing with TODAY's problems if we want to solve the problem, we better forget yesterday's injustices because they cause resentment.

Love you in the Lord

 

[fallingblood]

So why they need to be there.

I'm not going to waste my time answering your question as I don't think it is sincere. However, this entire thread basically explains the why. Part of it was because they were already there.

 

[free spirit]

I'm not going to waste my time answering your question as I don't think it is sincere. Right
However, this entire thread basically explains the why. Part of it was because they were already there.

They are everywere, And they were in larger numbers in other places, So why there?

 

[fallingblood]

They are everywere, And they were in larger numbers in other places, So why there?

Read the thread.

 

[Rakhel]

Read the thread.

You are asking way too much for something that is so easy Most in this thread are going:ignore:

 

[free spirit]

Read the thread.

I have read the thread, I have found a lot of politics, history, and resentements, averyone turning the story to justify himself.
Did I miss anything? By that I meant
Why a ten generation Russian who follow the jewish religion has a right to live in Palestine to the deprivation of the natives.

 

[England my lionheart]

I have read the thread, I have found a lot of politics, history, and resentements, averyone turning the story to justify himself.
Did I miss anything? By that I meant
Why a ten generation Russian who follow the jewish religion has a right to live in Palestine to the deprivation of the natives.

Same reason a 10th generation Russian can live in Australia

 

[England my lionheart]

You must be out of your mind if you think that history give you the right to claim it as Jewish property. Or you must be living in the fairy-tales of your religion.
I truly simpatize with you and your people: but the fact that a Jewish family once lived there doesn't make that land Jewish.
At present today the Palestinians people are suffering for the comfort of the Jews, today that is not right.
It is not too late to make them part of your nation with equal rights stop this cicle of hate, recognise that you are the intruder, therefore is up to you to make peace or get out of other people house.

History does give them the right,Palestine was a British Mandate and FYI the name Palestine was given by the Romans when they wanted to destroy the Jews as a punishment,so history is where the answer is and justification for Israel.

The Palestinians are suffering because they elected a Jew hating Government,if you take time out to read the Hamas Charter you would hopefully understand why your "circle of hate" will continue then come back,it would be interesting to hear what you think.