How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[Autodidact]

Peace sounds good.

What else do the Palestinians have to give?

If the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel, and cease hostilities, in exchange for the state they were offered over 60 years ago, I think Israel would accept and we could have peace. The problem isn't that Israel won't accept this offer, it's that the Palestinians won't, just as they didn't over 60 years ago. Israel accepted, Palestinians rejected. Today: Israel accepts, Palestinians reject. We're pretty much where we were, and until the Palestinians and the Arab states accept the reality of Israel, I don't see how we're going to make any progress.

btw, if this were to happen, it would mean incredible magnanimity on the part of Israel. It would mean they were attacked, they won, but they're going to give back everything they won. OTOH, they don't really want it anyway; they just want to be left alone.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

that was promised when Israel pulled out of Gaza. And if I recall, it was the Palestinians that renigged on the treaty first. Israel turned a blind eye to the rockets raining down on them for 5 years before reacting.
Try again.

There's nothing to try.

Israel has the Palestinians so far under their thumbs that there's no currency the Palestinians have than blood and whining.

Palestine as it is today is a monster created by Israel and sustained by sympathetic Arab nations.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel, and cease hostilities, in exchange for the state they were offered over 60 years ago, I think Israel would accept and we could have peace. The problem isn't that Israel won't accept this offer, it's that the Palestinians won't, just as they didn't over 60 years ago. Israel accepted, Palestinians rejected. Today: Israel accepts, Palestinians reject. We're pretty much where we were, and until the Palestinians and the Arab states accept the reality of Israel, I don't see how we're going to make any progress.

btw, if this were to happen, it would mean incredible magnanimity on the part of Israel. It would mean they were attacked, they won, but they're going to give back everything they won. OTOH, they don't really want it anyway; they just want to be left alone.

Of course I agree: if they would just recognize eachother, it would go a long way.

However, I believe that recognizing the Palestinian state would require Israel to end the blockade and not violate the borders.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Maybe I asked you this already? Do you think the Palestinians screwed up by refusing to accept this when it was offered to them in 1947?

Yes, but offer it again now, and if the Palestinians still refuse, then I'll recant everything I say. I doubt they'd refuse it now though. All the Arabs around the world are calling for them to accept a state of Palestine.

 

[Revoltingest]

How many more risks do you think they should take?
Exactly how much ground do you think the Israelis should give up?
And do you think they should get something in return?

I don't know.
I don't know.
Yes.

Any solution will be a complex one after much negotiation. Tis not for me to prescribe or predict the result.
I only suggest that some other course is better than the current one, ie, subjugation of Palestinians, who in
turn continually & violently rebel. Some form of more equality in co-existence makes sense to me.

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, but offer it again now, and if the Palestinians still refuse, then I'll recant everything I say. I doubt they'd refuse it now though. All the Arabs around the world are calling for them to accept a state of Palestine.

Read the charter. They refuse. Every organization that has ever represented them has as a part of their charter the total abolition of the state of Israel.

And no, actually, the big instigators are the Arab states around the world, who need Israel to exist to foment hostility, and who don't have to endure what the Palestinians are going through.

 

[fallingblood]

Of course I agree: if they would just recognize eachother, it would go a long way.

However, I believe that recognizing the Palestinian state would require Israel to end the blockade and not violate the borders.

I believe that is a very good point.

The way I see it, the situation is basically stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think it should be clear that both deserve to be there. I also see why Israel deserves the land that they later conquered, as they were simply defending themselves.

However, the problem is that neither side really trusts each other. Israel has committed its share of evil. I don't think that can be denied. One could try to justify their actions by saying that the Palestinians provoked the distrust by having terrorists attack them (I think it must be recognized that some Palestinians are terrorists. That is not to say all that are fighting for their rights are, but there definitely are some). But that doesn't really excuse Israel from participating in the despicable actions that they committed. At the same time, the Palestinians have little reason to trust Israel as Israel has not adhered to what they should be doing. And at the same time, it is logical, to a point, why Israel simply won't leave Palestinians alone; they don't trust them.

From what I understand, Israel has given some land to Palestine. At the same time, Israel does not completely respect that either. Yet, if they completely leave, it could open up more attacks, or so they fear.

Because of this distrust, I don't think a two-state resolution will work. Neither side is going to trust each other enough to leave the other alone. It's the same type of fear that fueled the Cold War.

 

[Rakhel]

I'm tired. This issue is going no where. Offers have been made and either rejected or stomped all over. Yet, it is still the Israeli's fault that the Palestinians refuse to cooperate.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I'm tired. This issue is going no where. Offers have been made and either rejected or stomped all over. Yet, it is still the Israeli's fault that the Palestinians refuse to cooperate.

This issue never goes anywhere because both sides are deadset it seems. Even if the Palestinians would accept a state, Israel wouldn't give it for the reasons you stated. Ariel Sharon actually said it best:

"Everyone there should move, should run, should grab more hills, expand the territory. Everything that's grabbed, will be in our hands. Everything we don't grab will be in their hands."

 

[fallingblood]

I'm tired. This issue is going no where. Offers have been made and either rejected or stomped all over. Yet, it is still the Israeli's fault that the Palestinians refuse to cooperate.

Well of course. Everyone knows Israel is composed of Zionists who run the entire world. The banks, media, movies, fast food, etc, are all Zionists organizations. I'm pretty sure they even have technology that controls the weather, or all the disasters in the world are their fault too.

 

[Rakhel]

This issue never goes anywhere because both sides are deadset it seems. Even if the Palestinians would accept a state, Israel wouldn't give it for the reasons you stated. Ariel Sharon actually said it best:

"Everyone there should move, should run, should grab more hills, expand the territory. Everything that's grabbed, will be in our hands. Everything we don't grab will be in their hands."

UMMM did you forget who ordered Gaza given back to the Palestinians and all Israelis forcefully removed from their homes?

 

[England my lionheart]

Read the charter. They refuse. Every organization that has ever represented them has as a part of their charter the total abolition of the state of Israel.

This includes Fatah,although they have changed "annihilate the Zionist" to enemy they aren't much better than Hamas,their charter is less religious though.

There are few factions in Palestine who also have a say and some are worse than Hamas who at least keep them in check.


PLO
FATAH
Hamas
Islamic Jihad
al-Saiqa
PFLP
PCLP-GC
PPP - Palestinian People's Party
Fatah Revolutionary Council
The Palestinian Revolutionary Communist Party
The Palestinian Democratic Union (FIDA)
Fatah-Uprising
Palestine Liberation Front
Palestinian Popular Struggle Front
Popular Resistance Committees
Active Organization for the Liberation of Palestine (AOLP)

And no, actually, the big instigators are the Arab states around the world, who need Israel to exist to foment hostility, and who don't have to endure what the Palestinians are going through.

Iran and Syria are still a big players in this as are Hezbollah and of course the Muslim Brotherhood who have a finger in many Pies non of these though give a toss for the Palestinian people,as you say they are just used.

 

[England my lionheart]

There's nothing to try.

Israel has the Palestinians so far under their thumbs that there's no currency the Palestinians have than blood and whining.

Palestine as it is today is a monster created by Israel and sustained by sympathetic Arab nations.

I disagree,Palestine as it is today is a monster created by Islamist ideology born in Egypt but i do agree about the sympathetic Arab nations

 

[Poisonshady313]

There's nothing to try.

Israel has the Palestinians so far under their thumbs that there's no currency the Palestinians have than blood and whining.

It's like Israel is a big guy, and the Palestinians are a little guy.... and the little guy is furiously swinging his arms, trying to hurt the big guy... and the big guy has his hand on the little guy's head, so that the little guy is arm's length away... swinging at the wind.

And the world sees the big guy not giving the little guy what he wants... calls the big guy all kinds of awful names because the little guy seems unhappy... but what the world doesn't get is that what the little guy wants is to destroy the big guy... but they still demand that the big guy give the little guy what he wants.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It's like Israel is a big guy, and the Palestinians are a little guy.... and the little guy is furiously swinging his arms, trying to hurt the big guy... and the big guy has his hand on the little guy's head, so that the little guy is arm's length away... swinging at the wind.

And the world sees the big guy not giving the little guy what he wants... calls the big guy all kinds of awful names because the little guy seems unhappy... but what the world doesn't get is that what the little guy wants is to destroy the big guy... but they still demand that the big guy give the little guy what he wants.

Let the little guy's head go. If he comes at you again, break his neck.

 

[Autodidact]

It's interesting that Israel is the big guy.

That tiny green slice is Israel. There is a peace treaty with Egypt. Everything else except Turkey is on the "other side." But Israel is the "big guy."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It's interesting that Israel is the big guy.

They are tough little buggers.

But any developed country would be the "big guy" in dealing with a sort of non-country that is basically a refugee camp.

 

[Autodidact]

They are tough little buggers.

But any developed country would be the "big guy" in dealing with a sort of non-country that is basically a refugee camp.

And their ten or twelve allies, including some of the wealthiest and best armed countries in the world.

btw, why do you think Israel was able to become a developed country in a single generation, while many of the countries around her wallow in poverty and ignorance?

 

[croak]

It's interesting that Israel is the big guy.

That tiny green slice is Israel. There is a peace treaty with Egypt. Everything else except Turkey is on the "other side." But Israel is the "big guy."

Doesn't Israel have a peace treaty with Jordan as well? Also, Cyprus likely has no issues with Israel, most of Saudi Arabia is unoccupied desert (correct me if I'm wrong), Iraq kind of needs to focus on itself for the time being, Lebanon knows that going to war would be a very bad idea (for the most part), Yemen... isn't much of a player... and with just those you've shrunken the Arab "big guy" by quite a bit. Iran's probably the only viable threat.

Take in to account the weaponry Israel has at its disposal, the fact that it doesn't share a border with Iran, the fact that more countries support Israel than Iran... no, I think it is safe to conclude that Israel is the "big guy" here.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

btw, why do you think Israel was able to become a developed country in a single generation, while many of the countries around her wallow in poverty and ignorance?

Historically, jews generally thrive wherever they are allowed to. From observing the large number of Jewish friends I've had throughout my life, their culture seems to promote education, stability, progress, and hard work - things which seem to be the cornerstones of building a thriving society.