How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Thank you for asking. I don't expect you to understand, as the paradigms are really different. There are always preconceived notions and biases in such questions. There are several misconceptions right in your question.

For Saivites like me, it's not 'How did?" but 'How does?" Shiva is no myth to us. Shiva in reality is in the here and now, right now all the time, as He (God, in Hinduism is actually genderless, but that's another discussion.) So firstly, its an active living faith, been around for 7000 Plus years, still a spiritual home to almost a billion people, not some 'ancient' long gone faith.

Yes He still communicates, because He's right there all the time. He's in the heart, in the sahaswara chakra, and all through consciousness. So for Hindus, it's more a concept of recognisig a being that is just always there, permeating, much like gravity is. Secondly, He communicates through the temple or the living Satguru.

For actual day to day ideas, He communicates in two ways primarily, directly though insight or intuition, called the superconscious mind, or God's mind. So that portion of the human mind that is not clouded by ego, by attachment, by false thinking, etc. is God's mind. We are part of His creation, and extension.

I hope this helps you, but I don't have high hopes given the length and nature of this discussion at present. But yes, that's the essential view of the monistic Saiva Siddhanta school within the vast religion today known as Hinduism. Many sects within Hinduism and outside of Hinduism will see it differently. Unlike many, we don't see our view as being right for humanity, just right for us.

What's the difference between the God you believe in and the one we believe in? Isn't it just in expression but the same God?

 

[Vinayaka]

What's the difference between the God you believe in and the one we believe in? Isn't it just in expression but the same God?

I don't know. You guys have yet to describe what God is, you've just focused on 'manifestations'.

Some time back I started a thread about that thought, whether the Gods were just different, or the understandings of God were different. I assume that Bahai's understanding is rather Abrahamic, but I'm not sure either. The nature of God has never been a focus of this thread, and its somewhat off topic.

Edited to add: Here's that thread. Please note its in the Hindu DIR. Different God or Different Conception of God

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's a Bahai claim 100 percent.

The Bahullah is not a buddha nor a bodhisattva. A buddha is one who is awakened to enlightenment. Enlightenment has no god.

He is not a Moses. That's silly. God only chose Moses and Aaron to free His chosen people. That's explicitly in scripture. Any Jew and Christian will tell you that.

No. He is not christ. Never was. Never is. Never will be. Bahaullah is an actual person. He is not a Jew. He is not a Roman. He is not a christian. (Didn't one of you say he is a Muslim?) There's a huge problem right there.

I'm assuming you feel Bahaullah is also krishna?

Now that one is way way over blown with The Buddha claim. Krishna is a god. Vishnu is a god. Bahaullah is a person. His name doesn't make him god but a messenger of god.

These things are names and titles. A pers N can have many titles and names. So too can the Manifestations God can have many names too.

But in spirit, purpose and mission all these Treachers are all one Reality and represent the same truth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't know. You guys have yet to describe what God is, you've just focused on 'manifestations'.

Some time back I started a thread about that thought, whether the Gods were just different, or the understandings of God were different. I assume that Bahai's understanding is rather Abrahamic, but I'm not sure either. The nature of God has never been a focus of this thread, and its somewhat off topic.

Edited to add: Here's that thread. Please note its in the Hindu DIR. Different God or Different Conception of God

God, in the Baha'i Writings is described as the unknowable essence'. That any image we form in our minds of God is not God but our image of God. Anything we can imagine is not God.

I think our belief in God is similar.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

These things are names and titles. A pers N can have many titles and names. So too can the Manifestations God can have many names too.

But in spirit, purpose and mission all these Treachers are all one Reality and represent the same truth.

Is Bahaullah a person? Human being?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Is Bahaullah a person? Human being?

Of course but He was pre existent as well as perfect.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

For actual day to day ideas, He communicates in two ways primarily, directly though insight or intuition, called the superconscious mind, or God's mind. So that portion of the human mind that is not clouded by ego, by attachment, by false thinking, etc. is God's mind. We are part of His creation, and extension.
.

Thanks for answering this. So, I understand that in Hinduism, there are some special Terminologies. To me, actually concepts are more important, as the words or expressions are only a mean to express the inner reality and meanings. So, what I mean is, in some faiths, they may use a term, called 'Prophet'. In another they may not use this term.
But what is the common belief is that, there is a supernatural Being, who communicates with us. I am sure that even in your particular type of Hinduism, there are some people who God communicated them, or they with the God, at a much higher level, in a sense that, there are some that are more inspired than others, because as you said, if the mind is not clouded by ego, it will receive better knowledge and understanding from God. This is exactly what Bahaullah also said:

“Knowledge is a light which God casteth
into the heart of whomsoever He willeth.” It is this kind of knowledge which is and hath ever been praiseworthy, and not the limited knowledge that hath sprung forth from veiled and obscured minds. This limited knowledge they even stealthily borrow one from the other, and vainly pride themselves therein!
Would that the hearts of men could be cleansed from these manmade limitations and obscure thoughts imposed upon them! haply they may be illumined by the light of the Sun of true knowledge, and comprehend the mysteries of divine wisdom." Bahaullah

And as you probably know, the term 'cloud' is also used in Bahai Scriptures, in same way you used it.


"Even as the clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, so do these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the divine Luminary." Bahaullah

So, in previous Abrahamic Religions, they used the term 'Prophet', for those people who are more inspired, because, these are the ones who did not have clouds on their mind, since they had removed every ego(self passion). But to me it does not matter what term is used to describe Them. Either 'Prophet', 'inspired people', or whatever else.

 

[Vinayaka]

God, in the Baha'i Writings is described as the unknowable essence'. That any image we form in our minds of God is not God but our image of God. Anything we can imagine is not God.

I think our belief in God is similar.

That of course was predictable, but I disagree. We Saivas in my school view God in 3 perfections: Absolute Reality, Pure Consciousness, and Primal Soul. The only one of those that would be remotely similar is the first one. But with that, there is a very important difference, that being that this 'unknowable essence' is actually knowable. The mystic experience called nirvikapla samadhi, in Sanskrit, or 'realization of the Self God within' in English makes it totally knowable, in fact the very reason we are all here, in these bodies on this planet. It is the end experience, the final conclusion, for each and every soul. Most of us (99.999 % of us) aren't there yet, although you've already in this thread claimed rather nonchalantly that 'Oh yeah, I've done that,".

I won't even attempt to explain the other two perfections, as this isn't a Hindu thread.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks for answering this. So, I understand that in Hinduism, there are some special Terminologies.

I did not get how 'cloud' was the same, but it's okay if you did. For me, 'vovered. veiled, etc all mean the same thing. It's not a physical cloud, as in Baha'u'llah's quote.

Yes, I do see some similarities in this, indicating your prophet dis have some inner vision.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That of course was predictable, but I disagree. We Saivas in my school view God in 3 perfections: Absolute Reality, Pure Consciousness, and Primal Soul. The only one of those that would be remotely similar is the first one. But with that, there is a very important difference, that being that this 'unknowable essence' is actually knowable. The mystic experience called nirvikapla samadhi, in Sanskrit, or 'realization of the Self God within' in English makes it totally knowable, in fact the very reason we are all here, in these bodies on this planet. It is the end experience, the final conclusion, for each and every soul. Most of us (99.999 % of us) aren't there yet, although you've already in this thread claimed rather nonchalantly that 'Oh yeah, I've done that,".

I won't even attempt to explain the other two perfections, as this isn't a Hindu thread.

Do you believe that Absolute Reality is fully and completely knowable by human beings?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Of course but He was pre existent as well as perfect.

That sounds like he is god. Moses, Abraham, Christ, and The Buddha never said they were perfect. Moses, Abraham, and Christ submitted to their father. The Buddha, the reason why he is a buddha, because he is and experienced suffering and got from that by understanding the nature of it not relieving himself of it on his own (there is no god in enlightenment.) He was born. He aged. He got sick. He died.

Bahalluah to Bahai and Christ to mainstream christians are the only two I know that are actual human beings that have attributes, divinity, and/or the same as god.

I'm more on the Jewish and Muslim end of the spectrum. It's very rude to put human attributes to god. If god is undefinable, and humans throughout scriptures try to define him, that's completely against abrahamic text. Both NT and OT. Then you try and mix it with Hindu which is the complete opposite in that Vishnu and other gods have incarnations that are correctly that (the incarnations) are attributes/gods of Vishnu and the main gods of Hinduism. Thereby being incarnation (if I got that right @Vinayaka ) of Brahman and so forth.

How can a messenger be perfect? Only god is perfect, right?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I did not get how 'cloud' was the same, but it's okay if you did. For me, 'vovered. veiled, etc all mean the same thing. It's not a physical cloud, as in Baha'u'llah's quote.

Bahaullah uses analogy to explain Spiritual Reality. He says, just as the physical cloud covers the Sun, and thus prevents our eye to receive and see the Light of the Sun, likewise, when heart and mind is covered with clouds of Worldly passions, and obscure thoughts, it is prevented from receiving light of divine knowledge. So, according to Bahaullah, all of us, have the potential to be inspired by the light of divine knowledge.

 

[Vinayaka]

Do you believe that Absolute Reality is fully and completely knowable by human beings?

Yes we do, but as I said, it is incredibly rare. Every individual does reach there at some point. It's just that we're all in different stages on this arduous journey. As you might know, moksha (release from the cycle of reincarnation) is the ultimate goal in Hinduism. Nirvikalpa samadhi is the embodied precursor to that. So suppose we're here for 2000 lifetimes. The first 1900 would basically be in ignorance, the final 100 kind of getting mystical, the final 10 getting incredibly mystical, and then that final one you get there. Occasionally you might get there on the second last one at the point of death, and then return to get there at a younger chronological age. Although we are all of the same essence, we're simultaneously individual, just like trees in a forest.

There are 3 other legitimate goals in Hinduism ... artha, kama, and dharma.

But for the people still out and under the veils of ignorance, it can only be an intellectual concept, not a reality. To know it, you HAVE to experience it.

 

[sayak83]

Thank you for all your effort and taking the time to reply and express your views which I appreciate very much.

We can all work towards peace and hopefully one day we will be united. I think Hindus are great people and have learned a lot from them already here so anything you wish to share with me please feel free.

Id be very happy if I could have cordial relations with Hindus as i believe in some things you believe in.

Any books you can recommend especially scriptures if you have any I will likely buy and read them.

Yes no issues. Anyone who considers the Bahai faith to be what is right for them are welcome to follow it. You are committed to peace and if you can convince even one person to abjure from violence, that is a gain. I would consider works of Vivekanada, available online for free, are a good place to start regarding Hinduism. Bhakti songs and poetry anthologies are another. Vinayaka would be known more links on that.

Thank you for all your effort and taking the time to reply and express your views which I appreciate very much.

We can all work towards peace and hopefully one day we will be united. I think Hindus are great people and have learned a lot from them already here so anything you wish to share with me please feel free.

Id be very happy if I could have cordial relations with Hindus as i believe in some things you believe in.

Any books you can recommend especially scriptures if you have any I will likely buy and read them.

We can have fully engaged and fruitful relations as reduction of violence and establishment of peace is a goal that both of us aspire to. Every Hindu study or ritual starts or end with prayer for peace
Om Sahana vavatu shanti mantra Lyrics and meaning

Om Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah
Sarve Santu Nir-Aamayaah |
Sarve Bhadraanni Pashyantu
Maa Kashcid-Duhkha-Bhaag-Bhavet |
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

: Om, May All become Happy,
2: May All be Free from Illness.
3: May All See what is Auspicious,
4: May no one Suffer.
5: Om Peace, Peace, Peace.


Another very famous one

Om Dyauh Shaantir-Antarikssam Shaantih
Prthivii Shaantir-Aapah Shaantir-Ossadhayah Shaantih |
Vanaspatayah Shaantir-Vishve-Devaah Shaantir-Brahma Shaantih
Sarvam Shaantih Shaantireva Shaantih Saa Maa Shaantir-Edhi |
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

Meaning:
1: Om, May there be Peace in Heaven, May there be Peace in the Universe,
2: May there be Peace in the Earth, May there be Peace in the Oceans, May there be Peace in the Herbs,
3: May there be Peace in the Trees, May there be Peace in the divinities enshrined in the various Worlds, May there be Peace in Brahman,
4: May there be Peace in All, May there be Peace Indeed within Peace, Giving Me the Peace which Grows within Me,
5: Om, Peace (in me) , Peace(in the world) , Peace (in the divinities) .


For 3000 years Hindus have chanted and meditated on such lines in every occasion to nurture peace within the self so that it grows out words from us into the world. So every path that seeks for peace is a friend and a companion.

 

[Vinayaka]

Bahaullah uses analogy to explain Spiritual Reality. He says, just as the physical cloud covers the Sun, and thus prevents our eye to receive and see the Light of the Sun, likewise, when heart and mind is covered with clouds of Worldly passions, and obscure thoughts, it is prevented from receiving light of divine knowledge. So, according to Bahaullah, all of us, have the potential to be inspired by the light of divine knowledge.

I would agree with that. There is potential in everyone. It makes for a great love for humanity. But of course we Hindus don't need some prophet to tell us that.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes we do, but as I said, it is incredibly rare. Every individual does reach there at some point. It's just that we're all in different stages on this arduous journey. As you might know, moksha (release from the cycle of reincarnation) is the ultimate goal in Hinduism. Nirvikalpa samadhi is the embodied precursor to that. So suppose we're here for 2000 lifetimes. The first 1900 would basically be in ignorance, the final 100 kind of getting mystical, the final 10 getting incredibly mystical, and then that final one you get there. Occasionally you might get there on the second last one at the point of death, and then return to get there at a younger chronological age. Although we are all of the same essence, we're simultaneously individual, just like trees in a forest.

There are 3 other legitimate goals in Hinduism ... artha, kama, and dharma.

But for the people still out and under the veils of ignorance, it can only be an intellectual concept, not a reality. To know it, you HAVE to experience it.

In Bahai View, God, is believed to be infinite, thus He cannot be limited in the mind. The Creator is greater than the Created.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I would agree with that. There is potential in everyone. It makes for a great love for humanity. But of course we Hindus don't need some prophet to tell us that.

Did God Shiva, ever appear among people on the earth?

 

[Vinayaka]

In Bahai View, God, is believed to be infinite, thus He cannot be limited in the mind. The Creator is greater than the Created.

In Hinduism, the 'created' isn't created, but emanated. So 'creation' and creator' are one and the same. Nirvikapla samadhi is realising this in mystic union. God is also infinite, beyond all form, formless, beyond concepts. But that is the Absolute Reality perfection I referred to before. The other to perfections have form. So we believe in both with form, and without form, simultaneously. To claim he is only one or the other would be limiting, so it's both.

 

[Vinayaka]

Did God Shiva, ever appear among people on the earth?

No, There is no concept of 'avatara' in pure Saivism. In some mix and match theologies within the umbrella of Hinduism, where others have incorrectly projected their views onto us, yes, you hear of it. Avatara is primarily a Vaishnava concept, but Smartas also have it, in the Vaishnava leaning schools.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In Hinduism, the 'created' isn't created, but emanated. So 'creation' and creator' are one and the same. Nirvikapla samadhi is realising this in mystic union. God is also infinite, beyond all form, formless, beyond concepts. But that is the Absolute Reality perfection I referred to before. The other to perfections have form. So we believe in both with form, and without form, simultaneously. To claim he is only one or the other would be limiting, so it's both.

In These things you say, I see, There are similarities with them, in Bahai Scriptures:


"Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty."
- Bahaullah