InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Does your type of Shiva Hinduism, predict of a future 'End of World' or 'Last Day'? If yes, doesn't it say, that on that Day, God appears among people?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
How are these Great Beings explained?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
No Siva never incarnates.
To answer that question we need to look at the writings of each founder and associated authoritative writings. Then we need to consider the Baha'i writings.
In regards to Moses as you know there are extensive laws that in their own right make up a theocracy. That is no small thing and formed the basis of a civilisation based on the worship of a monotheistic God, as opposed to the surrounding civilisations, that were based on polytheism. This civilisation reached its peak under the Kingship of David.
Christianity provided an opportunity for the Gentiles to come under God's covenant. The apostle Paul discusses this in Romans 9 and Romans 11. Jesus made it clear by His command to preach the gospel to all the nations. The Jews expectation was much narrower. They expected the Messiah would be a warrior King like David and free them from the oppression of the Romans.
In regards to Islam, it appears God wanted to establish a civilisation not too dissimilar from the Mosaic theocracy amidst the disparate polytheistic Arab tribes. There are indications that Islam would also be established much more widely. Baha'is believe there are references to Islam in the book of Daniel and revelations. These books prophesise its spread albeit under militant Islam that is likened to a rather unflattering beast with seven heads and ten horns!
There is nothing in the Bible to my knowledge that indicates Christianity will be the religion that heralds an era of world peace. Christianity lays the foundation for that to happen.
As for the purpose of religion generally according to the Baha'i writings:
The Purpose of Religion | What Bahá’ís Believe
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 14-15
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 16-17
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 18-24
Although the Baha'i Faith acknowledges that Buddha and Krishna were Manifestations of God there is nothing to indicate the writings their adherents possess are authoritative.
Clearly the result has been to establish religion in Asia amidst a large proportion of the worlds population so presumably, like Christianity and Islam has also laid a foundation.
I agree that the grade school analogy is simplistic and if we are going to properly answer the types of questions that have been asked of the Baha'is so well, we need another narrative.
Its an important question you have asked. I'll respond in more depth soon.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
It seems some of them say, Lord Shiva should appear at the End:
"Some Shaivites maintain that the ill effects of Kali Yuga can only be moderated by the manifestation of Lord Shiva Himself. Shastriji, one of the followers of Haidakhan Babaji, gave the following narration:
"Once Parvati asked Lord Shiva, her husband: 'You have done good work for the people in all ages, but I am afraid for the people in the Kali Yuga; how will they safeguard themselves?' Then Lord Shiva told Parvati: 'I will appear in the Kali Yuga and I will create a new state, a new centre of religion - a most important place, where I will live and establish all the Gods there.'"[18]"
Kali Yuga - Wikipedia
So, The End of World or Age is somewhat prophesied in Hinduism. Yes?
Maybe. Maybe not. In the world of words, true meaning is often hidden. I remain undecided.
No. Perhaps in some schools, in sort of way, but it's not end times, just the end of one cycle. But not at all in mine. Time is considered circular, not linear.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
So, in your school, what are the signs of end of the circle? Do you have some scriptures that describes it?
These articles might be helpful
How to Overcome Religious Prejudice, Tradition and Blind Imitation
Blind Imitations and Dogma—the Fate of All Religion?
Imitation
Some of the quotes from the Baha'i writings that are relevant:
…the root cause of prejudice is blind imitation of the past — imitation in religion, in racial attitudes, in national bias, in politics.
Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 247.
The greatest cause of bereavement and disheartening in the world of humanity is ignorance based upon blind imitation. It is due to this that wars and battles prevail; from this cause hatred and animosity arise continually among mankind.
Abdu’l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 73.
Baha’u’llah teaches that the foundations of the divine religion are one reality which does not admit of multiplicity or division. Therefore, the commandments and teachings of God are one. The religious differences and divisions which exist in the world are due to blind imitations of forms without knowledge or investigation of the fundamental divine reality which underlies all the religions.
Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 289.
Inasmuch as human interpretations and blind imitations differ widely, religious strife and disagreement have arisen among mankind, the light of true religion has been extinguished and the unity of the world of humanity destroyed.
Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 225.
Specifically in regards to Christianity, core beliefs that differ from the Baha'i faith are:
- The exclusivity of Christianity
- Jesus is physically God incarnate
- Salvation is through Faith (in Jesus) alone
- A physical resurrection of Christ
- The signs and conditions accompanying the Return of Christ
In regards the first four I have started threads that are on going. Its an opportunity to consider the origins of these beliefs and why they may differ from what Christ really taught.
The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality
The Divinity of Christ
Salvation through Christ: Unique to Christianity or applicable to other faiths?
Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?
I've yet to explore the return of Christ directly yet.
In regards to the symbolic verses, Abdu'l-Baha has said:
As to thy question concerning the additions to the Old and New Testament: Know thou, verily, as people could not understand the words, nor could they apprehend the realities therein, therefore they have translated them according to their own understanding and interpreted the verses after their own ideas and thus the text fell into confusion. This is undoubtedly true. As to an intentional addition: This is something uncertain. But they have made great mistakes as to the understanding of the texts and the comprehending of the references and have therefore fallen into doubts, especially in regard to the symbolical verses.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, Pages 609-610
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Not really. There are 4 yugas, and they repeat themselves. In my particular school, all 4 yogas would be going on simultaneously in various parts of the universe. The only end is for the individual when that individual soul merges with God. Some schools don't see it as an absolute final merge, like water in water, but as salt dissolved in water, forever keeping some vague separateness, so forever being 'close' to God. In my school it water into water.
I know of no parallel to the end times of Abrahamism. Yes, some people like to make one up, in an attempt to find similarity, but that's intellectual deception and folly, based on preconceived notions of how world views should look. In other words, all world views must look like mine, because mine is right. Not how we Hindus see it.
Again, the two paradigms are very very different.
I read some of that document.
Bahais can sure see false dogma in others, but can't seem to see it in themselves at all. In other words, Bahai's are saying we're immune to the criticisms we have of others.
The part I read was about 'religions' saying how they were right was a big mistake, and yet the Bahais say they're right. Do you see the irony?
Why do you think this is so?
Probably he is talking about Varanasi where Siva is supposed to reside in spirit and ensure it remains the center of Hinduism in kali yuga (current age). A bit like how YHWH resided in Jerusalem in spirit. Check Kashi viswanath temple.
This is the first I had ever heard of Haidhakhan Babaji, and the quote was from one of his followers. Not exactly authoritative, but more a comment on the vastness of Hinduism. Heck, if some guy paid me $50 for a quote from a Hindu, I'd tell him exactly what he wanted to hear too.
Similar things about eternity, etc. are said about Chidambaram as well.
OK, lets consider this seriously. One of the fundamental Baha'i teachings is the harmony of science and religion.
Science and Religion | What Bahá’ís Believe
Another article on this theme:
Unity of Science & Religion
Baha'i quotes included:
God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible…
Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 239.
Religion and Science are inter-twined with each other and cannot be separated. These are the two wings with which humanity must fly. One wing is not enough. Every religion which does not concern itself with science is mere tradition…. Therefore science, education and civilization are most important necessities for the full religious life.
Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 28-29.
The priests are attached to ancient superstitions and when these are not in keeping with science, the priests denounce science. When religion is upheld by science and reason we can believe with assurance and act with conviction, for this rational faculty is the greatest power in the world. Through it industries are established, the past and present are laid bare and the underlying realities are brought to light. Let us make nature our captive, break through all laws of limitation and with deep penetration bring to light that which is hidden. The power to do this is the greatest of divine benefits. Why treat with indifference such a divine spark? Why ignore a faculty so beneficial, a sun so powerful?
Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p.96; p.101-2.
There is an abundance of Baha'i writings along these themes. Basically, if science absolutely disproves something to be true, then that's the end of the matter. We can allow for an Omnipotent, All-powerful God to create miracles. However, this has limits. For example, the argument that the earth was created six thousand years ago, and then the existence of fossils that are much older. How do we account for that? I've heard Satan put the fossils there to deceive man as to the truth. If that's the argument, then the debate looses its appeal.
How about Noah's ark. Even allowing for the dimensions recorded in the bible, it would be impossible to fit all the different species onto the ark, let alone the logistics of collecting them from all around the world.
There are geological layers of the earth that separate according to time. The dinosaurs and humans are not within the same layers.
Carbon dating, doesn't extend to just carbon but isotopes of all elements. It appears a robust method of calculating age over an extended period of time.
What about the evidence of movement of tectonic plates over millions and billions of years, and the interconnections between fauna and species that support this?
Different chemical's have preservative properties, so we would need to consider closely the evidence around these supposed fleshy dinosaur bones?
I'm not familiar with these caveman drawings with supposed dinosaur drawings. Maybe ancient peoples had a lot of nightmares or vivid imaginations.
Its a good point. Maybe I should be a little more open to having such conversations and considering the different POVs. I believe in respective, courteous dialogue so would need to change my attitude for sure.
Baha'is believe in science. History is often a narrative around archaeological science.
I don't believe there is any evidence to support a worldwide flood as recording in the book of Genesis, either from a scientific or Baha'i perspective.
Dinosaurs existed long before man according to science.
Evolution is interesting because Abdu'l-Baha said that man was never an animal but then acknowledges man may have had different forms before the one we have now, much like an embryo develops into an adult.
We're all human and prone to misinterpreting and misunderstanding sacred writings regardless of our religion or background, including Baha'is.
Baha'i writings can be misunderstood of course. However there are important reasons that we can be more certain the Baha'i writings and understandings more closely reflect what Baha'u'llah actually taught, than for example what Jesus taught.
- We have the original writings from Baha'u'llah or written dictations from His secretary as to what He actually said. The teachings of Jesus were passed down by word of mouth for at least 20 years before the first gospel was written. The first actual fragment from the gospel (of John) is dated nearly 200 years after Christ died.
- There is clear evidence that the early Christian thinkers added their own understandings that later became enshrined in doctrine in the 4th century AD. This problem is avoided as Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice all have their authority derived from Baha'u'llah Himself. Jesus arguably appointed Peter as His successor but said little about the nature of leadership/authority he should have.
- Jesus arguably spoke mostly in Aramaic, which was then translated into Greek, then into Latin and finally into English. There are likely to be more errors in translation.
- It is more difficult to understand the cultural context with the passing of the centuries, whereas Baha'u'llah was around relatively recently.
Whether or not the Baha'i writings are true is another issue.
Baha'is reject the doctrine of original sin. The story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden is seen as symbolic and not a literal event. The narrative around Christ as a sacrifice has symbolism that draws from the OT and was helpful at the time to progress an understanding of our relationship to the Manifestation (Christ) and God.
There are many engaged with this discussion. Its a non specific debate about the boundaries between science and religion. I'm sure there are many capable scientists there.
That's the literal story, for certain.
I believe in the first instance, its about having a courteous, respectful discussion and hearing each others points of view. That's all we can really do.
arthra
Baha'i
The Book of Mormon is not in our view a Holy scripture as say the Bible nor do we regard Joseph Smith as a Prophet.. We do feel there are commendable qualities though found among Mormons...
The Book of Certitude explains all these concepts. Without having read and reflected on it of course you're going to be confused and perplexed by such seemingly irreconcilable concepts.
arthra
Baha'i
It's where the Teachers of humanity agree. Yes we can have diversity but we can also have common ground as in such inter-faith gatherings as the Parliament of World Religions for instance.