How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Yes of course.

I definitely haven't. In Hinduism in order to experience nirvikalpa samadhi (Brahman), it takes many many years of meditation, daily sadhana, a lifetime or more of celibacy, (the sexual energies are transmuted and sent up the spine riding on the nadi of the sushumna, in the form of kundalini) ability to see chakras, being overwhelmed with inner light, a total loss of ego identity, and a few more things. It's not some mere intellectual ego saying, 'Oh yeah, I did that." as if it were as casual as having a beer.

So there, our truths are substantially different.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can't name it. Because it's a mystical thing you experience in your own inner being. You may call it one thing and I another, but it's the same truth. It's a mystical thing.

Mystical? That and any synonym of mystical is not in my vocabulary.

There has to be a common foundation attributes you can name given they are the same. Explain mystical since not everyone who holds truths see their faiths as mystical (not different name, it's just not there)-not talking about atheist.

 

[siti]

Yes I know. It's a real pain every time a Prophet comes instead of trying to learn we oppose. Probably would be far better if God sent no more and allowed man to nuke himself into extinction.

God persists with us but I often wonder why because we are very stubborn and closed minded and way too proud to have these Teachers waste their time coming where they are clearly unwelcome.

OK - maybe I think I should leave it there for this discussion (I know I said that earlier and we clearly haven't progressed) but the actual evidence speaks for itself my brother and it will not go away just because I do. All the best!

 

[Vinayaka]

But I sense its time once again to withdraw from this thread. Sorry I entered it again, folks. That brick wall on the upside of my head is starting to hurt again. i don't want to injure the faculty that will send the electrical arc from pituitary to pineal.

 

[loverofhumanity]

God is genderless. (And I predict you will agree.) Pretty soon, if I give you all my beliefs, and you continue to agree with them all, I'll come to believe you're a Hindu, lol.

Yes I agree on that. Keep,going. Lol

 

[Vinayaka]

OK - maybe I think I should leave it there for this discussion (I know I said that earlier and we clearly haven't progressed) but the actual evidence speaks for itself my brother and it will not go away just because I do. All the best!

lol, great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes I agree on that. Keep,going. Lol

See, I can make prophecies.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But I sense its time once again to withdraw from this thread. Sorry I entered it again, folks. That brick wall on the upside of my head is starting to hurt again. i don't want to injure the faculty that will send the electrical arc from pituitary to pineal.

Aaaww. You leavin' me?!

 

[loverofhumanity]

OK - maybe I think I should leave it there for this discussion (I know I said that earlier and we clearly haven't progressed) but the actual evidence speaks for itself my brother and it will not go away just because I do. All the best!

Ok. What kind of progress were you hoping for and which evidence do you mean? Sorry to see you go.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Mystical? That and any synonym of mystical is not in my vocabulary.

There has to be a common foundation attributes you can name given they are the same. Explain mystical since not everyone who holds truths see their faiths as mystical (not different name, it's just not there)-not talking about atheist.

It's not something words can adequately describe. When you pray or meditate you experience it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I definitely haven't. In Hinduism in order to experience nirvikalpa samadhi (Brahman), it takes many many years of meditation, daily sadhana, a lifetime or more of celibacy, (the sexual energies are transmuted and sent up the spine riding on the nadi of the sushumna, in the form of kundalini) ability to see chakras, being overwhelmed with inner light, a total loss of ego identity, and a few more things. It's not some mere intellectual ego saying, 'Oh yeah, I did that." as if it were as casual as having a beer.

So there, our truths are substantially different.

I believe I experienced what you're speaking about.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I can only interpret and share Catholicism and Nichiren Buddhism because I studied the two and experienced both as a devotee of the Church and latter the Gohonzon.

You have different religious founders in your religion. Hindu and Christians (and even non-abrahamics) have corrected you on what these founders actually taught. Now you can believe whatever you want to believe

but if you are making peace by unity, you must go by the perspective of other religions, not your own and not Bahaullah. It's like a relationship. What you're doing is saying "god and I call the shots, love. You can talk and we can converse, but I won't take your truth into consideration because what I receive is from my belief and from god".

That's, well, messed up to put it nicely.

Of course I take your views into consideration?

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is going significantly off-topic but the difference between my endorsement of some Enlightenment ideas and the unwavering Bahai faith in the reality of the supposed past "Manifestations" is that I do not feel obliged to re-interpret the history of Enlightenment in order to shore up my faith in their origins.

Baha'is do not need to reinterpret history as you suggest. There are of course facts or events that we can be reasonably certain of, and areas that we know little. Understandings and interpretations of history are not uniform, especially in the areas that are relatively unknown. Even with the facts that are known each understands it according to their own beliefs. What we all need to acknowledge is that all truth is relative.

The thinking of Locke, Hume, Voltaire, Rousseau, Kant, Leibniz, Franklin, Jefferson etc. was of purely human origin. Any interpretation of their ideas, benign or malignant, was/is a human interpretation.

That is an assumption on your part. If there is an omnipotent God then even the atheist can be inspired by that God, as with those that interpret them.

But between them, they endorsed the notions of freedom of thought, freedom of expression, democracy, social contract and the consent of the governed, and many of them, whilst, as you claimed earlier, being men of faith, to varying degrees espoused freedom of conscience and religious liberty. Kant, Rousseau and Jeremy Bentham were outspoken pacifists. Of course they were not alone in this and more openly religious men, like (Quaker) William Penn in America and (Evangelical Anglican) William Wilberforce in England (for example) were also bold pacifists and emancipators. They were all, for the most part, opposed by the prevailing religious orthodoxies of the time.

Freedom of thought and expression, democracy, engagement and agreement of the governed are principles we agree on. That is an important starting point because we can work towards these goals together and that does not require either of us to change our faith or beliefs. This is what the Baha'is do as they contribute the united nations discussion groups.

About us

And BTW, the Terror in France was the result of the misguided desire of some to turn the free-thinking of the Enlightenment (in particular Deism) into a state religion (the antithesis of free-thought) - The Cult of the Supreme Being. The result of making a religion out of it was, unquestionably horrific, but even that was much less bloodthirsty than the overtly religious Huguenot Wars a couple of hundred years earlier. All of which I think, again, underlines the very point I have been making.

I think ego and arrogance were at the heart of it. We're all humans and susceptible to that. Religion teaches humility and self-effacement.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Baha'is do not need to reinterpret history as you suggest. There are of course facts or events that we can be reasonably certain of, and areas that we know little. Understandings and interpretations of history are not uniform, especially in the areas that are relatively unknown. Even with the facts that are known each understands it according to their own beliefs. What we all need to acknowledge is that all truth is relative.

View attachment 16474



That is an assumption on your part. If there is an omnipotent God then even the atheist can be inspired by that God, as with those that interpret them.



Freedom of thought and expression, democracy, engagement and agreement of the governed are principles we agree on. That is an important starting point because we can work towards these goals together and that does not require either of us to change our faith or beliefs. This is what the Baha'is do as they contribute the united nations discussion groups.

About us



I think ego and arrogance were at the heart of it. We're all humans and susceptible to that. Religion teaches humility and self-effacement.

“In order to find truth we must give up our prejudices, our own small trivial notions; an open receptive mind is essential.
“The fact that we imagine ourselves to be right and everybody else wrong is the greatest of all obstacles in the path towards unity, and unity is necessary if we would reach truth, for truth is one.”

Excerpt From: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Paris Talks.”

I see truth in all religions and accept them all. I don't see any division whatsoever.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I can see how jesus may fit into the Bahai faith since in scriptures it says he was sent by god.

Thanks for that. I have to acknowledge that the Baha'i Faith does fit more comfortably into an Abrahamic paradigm, than a Dharmic one.

Though, Buddhism is intellectual. You come to understand karma-cause and affect/life and death, and when you do so, that is when one lives in full compassion, love, etc. It's all in practice not in belief.

Of course Buddhist believe in the heart. I never heard The Buddha made "the heart" the foundation of his teachings but the result of it.

Many god-religions focus on heart first. Buddhism focuses on mind first. Both have similar results. Your foundations differ.

That is true and I see no dichotomy between the heart and mind of man.

Of this Abdu'l-Baha has spoken:

Consider carefully: all these highly varied phenomena, these concepts, this knowledge, these technical procedures and philosophical systems, these sciences, arts, industries and inventions—all are emanations of the human mind. Whatever people has ventured deeper into this shoreless sea, has come to excel the rest. The happiness and pride of a nation consist in this, that it should shine out like the sun in the high heaven of knowledge. “Shall they who have knowledge and they who have it not, be treated alike?” And the honor and distinction of the individual consist in this, that he among all the world’s multitudes should become a source of social good. Is any larger bounty 3 conceivable than this, that an individual, looking within himself, should find that by the confirming grace of God he has become the cause of peace and well-being, of happiness and advantage to his fellow men? No, by the one true God, there is no greater bliss, no more complete delight.

Don't understand how that relates but yeah. We can't go back in time, so we can't ask The Buddha himself (rather than his disciples) whether he believed he was sent by god or not.

An important starting point for any discussion needs to be a recognition of what we don't know.

Hey. Buddhism is pretty extensive. I don't know which teachings I find hard to read though, Buddhism, Bahai, or King James Bible.

Its all a good read as far as I can see.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's not something words can adequately describe. When you pray or meditate you experience it.

You have to give me spme words. Not everyone has the same experience by differe t name. They are totatlly different people, different culture, and their "definitions" are not another word for one truth. They are unique to themselves.

If you cannot describe it, how can you say people that are not you experience it?

Try to give some universal definition of mystical feeling.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, now I remember...the "grades" of school Baha'i analogy. Each Manifestation brought what was needed to take human civilization to the next level. This was from firesides, so I don't know how "official" of a Baha'i teaching it is, so could you clarify it for me.

I've heard Baha'is use this analogy a lot. Its an oversimplification of course and I'm not aware that it is used specifically in the Baha'i writings. It is useful to a point in considering the development of different religious cycles and how they may build on a previous cycle. The relationship between Christianity and Judaism; Islam and the Baha'i Faith; and perhaps Buddhism and Hinduism are the obvious examples. The use of the term Educator for 'Manifestations of God' features in the Baha'i writings. Progressive revelation is often used too, but once again it is a concept that has limitations and needs to be considered in the light of other teachings.

Some relevant Baha'i writings:

Among the bounties of God is revelation. Hence revelation is progressive and continuous. It never ceases. It is necessary that the reality of Divinity with all its perfections and attributes should become resplendent in the human world. The reality of Divinity is like an endless ocean. Revelation may be likened to the rain. Can you imagine the cessation of rain? Ever on the face of the earth somewhere rain is pouring down. – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 378.

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah, whose supreme mission is none other but the achievement of this organic and spiritual unity of the whole body of nations, should . . . be regarded as signalizing through its advent the coming of age of the entire human race. It should be viewed . . . not only as a further stage in a chain of progressive Revelations, nor even as the culmination of one of a series of recurrent prophetic cycles, but rather as marking the last and highest stage in the stupendous evolution of man’s collective life on this planet. The emergence of a world community, the consciousness of world citizenship, the founding of a world civilization and culture—all of which must synchronize with the initial stages in the unfoldment of the Golden Age of the Baha’i Era—should, by their very nature, be regarded, as far as this planetary life is concerned, as the furthermost limits in the organization of human society. – Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 163.

The connections between the various faiths, including the world religions will be the focus of much scholarship and research in the future.

The way I remember it was that one manifestation brought tribal communities together... Then the next city/states...Then nations... and now community world. But, no matter where you start, it seems like, somewhere, there was always a great, meaning large, civilization.

This passage from the Guardian in World Order of Baha'u'llah is probably what is being referred to:

Unification of the whole of mankind is the hall-mark of the stage which human society is now approaching. Unity of family, of tribe, of city-state, and nation have been successively attempted and fully established. World unity is the goal towards which a harassed humanity is striving. Nation-building has come to an end. The anarchy inherent in state sovereignty is moving towards a climax. A world, growing to maturity, must abandon this fetish, recognize the oneness and wholeness of human relationships, and establish once for all the machinery that can best incarnate this fundamental principle of its life.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 202-206

Also, even the analogy of each manifestation being like a school teacher and taught what was needed to get to the next level. I don't see that either. Some are very deep, mystical and filled with spiritual knowledge... Others are more centered around "Divine" laws. So the Mosaic Laws, to me, don't lead us to the next school grade of Jesus' teachings. Who then would have taught us what we needed to learn from Muhammad.

I think it is important to remember that Jesus' audience was almost exclusively Jews, but then after the Jews largely rejected their Messiah, it became a religion for the Gentiles. Its also useful to know that there were Christians and Muslims on the Arabian peninsula when Muhammad revealed the Quran. However the Arabian tribes that Muhammad united had been pagans. Western culture had significant exposure through the Islamic golden age which was arguably the most significant factor in stimulating the renaissance period. All that being said, we need to learn from history, science, and what religion teaches. Using one simple model alone to understand humanities spiritual development is not sufficient.

I'll tie in post #681 from Adrian009 here also, since my question does relate. Jesus made the Old Testament "redundant"? From a Christian point of view I think "obsolete" would be a better word to use . But what about from a Jewish point of view? The NT is written by men and may or may not be accurate as to what Jesus said and did. However, it is definitely breaking away from what was supposedly told to Moses directly from God. Why leave "God's Law" that was "forever" for "all" generations etc. There are places that make it sound His Law are eternal.

The verse that uses obsolete is this one in Hebrews:
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13 NIV version

Yet Christ says:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:13

We need to be able to distinguish between the eternal and transient features of each covenant. Once again I quote from one common faith:

To argue, therefore, that differences of regulations, observances and other practices constitute any significant objection to the idea of revealed religion’s essential oneness is to miss the purpose that these prescriptions served. More seriously, it misses the fundamental distinction between the eternal and the transitory features of religion’s function. The essential message of religion is immutable. It is, in Bahá’u’lláh’s words, "the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future".[20] Its role in opening the way for the soul to enter into an evermore mature relationship with its Creator—and in endowing it with an ever-greater measure of moral autonomy in
disciplining the animal impulses of human nature—is not at all irreconcilable with its providing auxiliary guidance that enhances the process of civilization building.

The concept of progressive revelation places the ultimate emphasis on recognition of the revelation of God at its appearance. The failure of the generality of humankind in this respect has, time and again, condemned entire populations to a ritualistic repetition of ordinances and practices long after these latter have fulfilled their purpose and now merely stultify moral advance. Sadly, in the present day, a related consequence of such failure has been to trivialize religion. At precisely the point in its collective development where humanity began to struggle with the challenges of modernity, the spiritual resource on which it had principally depended for moral courage and enlightenment was fast becoming a subject of mockery, first at those levels where decisions were being made about the direction society should take, and eventually in ever-widening circles of the general population. There is little cause for surprise, then, that this most devastating of the many betrayals of trust from which human confidence has suffered should, in the course of time, undermine the foundations of belief itself. So it is that Bahá’u’lláh repeatedly urges His readers to think deeply about the lesson taught by such repeated failures: "Ponder for a moment, and reflect upon that which has been the cause of such denial.…" "What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance…?" "What could have caused such contention…?""Reflect, what could have been the motive…?"

http://www.bahai.org/library/other-...ne-common-faith/one-common-faith.pdf?de5bc4cf

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Of course I take your views into consideration?

Meaning views about Pagan gods that are not treated as comic book characters, trying to understand why other religions know more about their religion "and" try to understand if a religious is telling you his religion does not prophecy the coming of Bahauh, because youbare not familar wih Hindu, Id believe someone who knows more and evaluate the truth from hose who practice not outside parties. Asking permission is another word for actually asking a practicing devotee (not bahai) about whether you are incorporating the actual founders teachings or your view of them.

While its healthy to have ones belief, the Moment you say you are seeing one truth in all religions, other religious and religions Must agree with you. You need to be more than just interested in love and compassion but the traditionsnand cultures that define these Individual and unique beliefs.

To have unity rather them vs. me agreement is essential if not a must. Without that, bahai is like many god-religions saying this is thd truth and that is not. You may not see it as a univeralist but itz there black and white.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You have to give me spme words. Not everyone has the same experience by differe t name. They are totatlly different people, different culture, and their "definitions" are not another word for one truth. They are unique to themselves.

If you cannot describe it, how can you say people that are not you experience it?

Try to give some universal definition of mystical feeling.

Thank you Carlita for being so patient. Inner peace, inner contentment. These are words that come to mind. Inner quiet and stillness. But many people describe it in other ways too. There is no right or wrong way to describe the mystical feeling of having truth within.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thanks for that. I have to acknowledge that the Baha'i Faith does fit more comfortably into an Abrahamic paradigm, than a Dharmic one.



That is true and I see no dichotomy between the heart and mind of man.

Of this Abdu'l-Baha has spoken:

Consider carefully: all these highly varied phenomena, these concepts, this knowledge, these technical procedures and philosophical systems, these sciences, arts, industries and inventions—all are emanations of the human mind. Whatever people has ventured deeper into this shoreless sea, has come to excel the rest. The happiness and pride of a nation consist in this, that it should shine out like the sun in the high heaven of knowledge. “Shall they who have knowledge and they who have it not, be treated alike?” And the honor and distinction of the individual consist in this, that he among all the world’s multitudes should become a source of social good. Is any larger bounty 3 conceivable than this, that an individual, looking within himself, should find that by the confirming grace of God he has become the cause of peace and well-being, of happiness and advantage to his fellow men? No, by the one true God, there is no greater bliss, no more complete delight.




An important starting point for any discussion needs to be a recognition of what we don't know.



Its all a good read as far as I can see.

Edit: sorrym these stupid ads are covering my screen.

Youre welcome. Bahai writings are beautiful (when I can read them ). It speaks of love, compassion, etc. The only thing that is off is the presence of god and traditions shape ones definition of love. Of course, not all religions believe in god (thus dont believe god sent anyone). The other is traditions define the definions of who of what a god is. They differ so much I cant find union. But I agree with hindu and christian that their gods are different. I agree, well know, The Buddha speaks of him not being sent by god but being here in a cycle (without describing his origin) of birth and death until he got full understandingnthat stopped the cycle. God is the origin. The buddha speaks of cycle. The former is linear view. The latter circular view.

Its the same with Bahaullah, we dont know. Im not saying his goals are wrong. Im saying putting founders of other faithz under one truth sent by god and prophecy bahaullah existence cN only be confirmed by devotees of hat faith and scripture interpreted by them.

Outside interpretations do not grab the full understanding of what these people believe. Even more so, Being theze religions help understand the differences and hopefully respect their uniqueness that thdy have one truh X and another one truth Y and they dont need a common foundation and one truth to be in union.