How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm trying to understand without being sidetracked with analogies, objective, and subject topics.

By agreed on observations of the phenomenal world as with the example given. From here we can at least begin a reasonable discussion about what is true, and what is belief.

Since I'm talking about expression and many truths and how each person's truths are not separated from themselves, saying that they are not objective like the sun is saying that, say, Bahaullah is only a symbol and your belief doesn't mean anything concrete. It's like calling the Eucharist a symbol and, well, just depreciating what it means for religious truth to be considered fact no matter what other atheist wants to disagree.

My point in 814 is:

There are many expressions
One Expression is a truth
Hence there are many truths.

Expressions are our religion
There are many religions
There are many truths

They are not subjective. If they were, you could change your belief just as well as I can change mine. Your beliefs are facts to you (or why would you be defending them?) So, that's why we are discussing beliefs.

Also, if you can separate your belief from objective reality, then I have to ask is your belief false? Imaginary? What is it based on if god, Bahaullah, prophets, etc are not true as the earth goes around the sun?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I read what you said.

We should, therefore, detach ourselves from the external forms and practices of religion.

The point is, you cannot do that. Your religion has external forms just as every other religion. These "forms", if you like, are expressions. Each expression is one truth. Expression X is one truth. Expression Y another. There are more than one truths.

Forms/religions/expressions are inseparable. The result of these practices are love, compassion, etc but love, compassion, etc are not the foundation of these religions. There is no one religion (Bahai isn't the one religion that is true in getting things right). There are no "right" religions because they are all truth. Every single one of them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

They aren't great beings. They are each defined by their teachings and more importantly for some their God.
They all died but one resurrected. Jesus Christ is the only person amongst them known for the miracle of resurrection.
There is no great spiritual leaders now. Christ is the only leader who is alive and promised to come again.
If he is still alive who could possibly replace him? Do you believe any spiritual leader could do anything for the world today?

We believe in Jesus as truth. But that there is no inherent superiority in the station of Jesus over other Prophets and Messengers. This is what the priests and clergy teach not the Gospels.

 

[Vinayaka]

“The Jews have traditional superstitions, the Buddhists and the Zoroastrians are not free from them, neither are the Christians! All religions have gradually become bound by tradition and dogma.

Yes that's going to help with interfaith dialogue ... by informing everyone how wrong they are.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"I'm not saying different expressions of the same truth. I'm saying expressions are what makes up the truth; and, because there is a diversity, there is no one truth."

This is equating the subjective with the objective.

"We share passion for art. We share creative expression. We share the human yearning for freedom of expression These DO NOT represent one truth. Our truth IS the actual art we made. To tell Carol she expresses the same "truth" as me is depreciating her expression, her art, HER truth."

As with this comment.

"To understand our passion, our love, our religion, you must see our arts as unique and a reflection of ourselves as the truth of three not as a whole. We don't deny the passion other artist have. We are glad. But we understand the boundaries."

So maybe the boundary we need to establish is what we can objectively know compared to subjective experience.

When we are talking about the Founders of the great religions, we are talking about real people who lived and taught. There may well be a great deal of myth associated with their lives and teaching but they were still real people with a real message.

The problem is that some religionists are uncomfortable separating myth from reality, or simply lack the tools so have no idea where to start.

You'd have to quote me.

Yes, subjective and objective coincide. They can't be separated in religious practices. Unless one is, well new age? The only Universalist church I've gone to was the Universal Universalist one. But it's nothing like Bahai.

Remember, you believe in Moses, Muhammad, etc and these, if you like, could involve myth. Maybe you're the only one not uncomfortable with that, but regardless, my point still stands that we are our expressions and there are many expressions/truths as there are people in the world. To see them coming from one source is squeezing a rainbow into one color.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We believe in Jesus as truth. But that there is no inherent superiority in the station of Jesus over other Prophets and Messengers. This is what the priests and clergy teach not the Gospels.

This, by itself, is wrong. Jesus put himself up over everyone else even other prophets such as Moses and Abraham. He didn't belittle them but he did say he was the "big guy" in the game now and if you don't go through me, you won't make it through the play offs. Christ says it well when he returned to the NBA to play last year. Check it out.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I read what you said.



The point is, you cannot do that. Your religion has external forms just as every other religion. These "forms", if you like, are expressions. Each expression is one truth. Expression X is one truth. Expression Y another. There are more than one truths.

Forms/religions/expressions are inseparable. The result of these practices are love, compassion, etc but love, compassion, etc are not the foundation of these religions. There is no one religion (Bahai isn't the one religion that is true in getting things right). There are no "right" religions because they are all truth. Every single one of them.

Without detachment it is stated that one cannot find truth. Also love can blindly incline one to error as below stated. Detachment is the key. Love and hate are both obstacles to truth.

“No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth."

When a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading unto the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness in this Day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the Divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error. - Baha'u'llah (Book of Certitude)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Without detachment it is stated that one cannot find truth. Also love can blindly incline one to error as below stated. Detachment is the key. Love and hate are both obstacles to truth.

You're calling a lot of people who experience the similar truths that you do (given you believe in multii religions) liers. You also telling people they don't know their own spiritual enlightenment, they don't know salvation, and they are not one with Brahman. Basically, you are telling people to get rid of their culture and develop a invisible relationship with an entity and prophets (as if prophets are not part of culture) only.

Basically, you just ripped a part spirituality for thousands of people just by this one reply.

-

If you notice, I'm defending more than one set of religions. I find that each religion has a right to their own truth. Following Bahaullah's point of view in your post as if it determines the course of other religions that you put into your religion that's the problem is wrong. If they weren't in your religion, then it would be like any god-religion me vs. them. Same ol' but you are putting people and their culture into the mix. It's an insult. Not a respectful interfaith dialogue.

 

[Vinayaka]

The only problem with that argument is you depend on a physical resurrection that can not be proven, and can easily be disproved.

The Christians believe what they believe, just as you believe what you believe. It doesn't help to argue with him, and tell him he's wrong, or try to convince him how wrong he is. Why not just accept that he has a different belief than you, and just lovingly leave it at that?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

There is no doubt that prayer and fasting an essential aspect of the Abrahamic faiths to varying degrees.

Then how can Baha'i introduce them as something new?

Good luck finding anything like this in the writings of ancient civilisations:

All nations in the Roman Empire used the same coin, and spoke Latin as the lingua franca. So again, Baha'i is introducing nothing new.

These are some of the documents that outline the succession of authority and its scope in the Baha'i writings.

Which is still nothing new. There's no use plugging Baha'i writings unless you can back up the claim that it was new. Even then, you should try to at the very least present it yourself, rather than just over-saturate the discussion with snippets of your holy text.

A little vague in regards to overcoming prejudice.

Not really. "Judge not" is about as clear as it needs to be against pre-judging someone.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't know how much truth this is Bahai, but this is religious expression: Laws, Rituals, and Feasts of Bahai These are traditions and culture.

Should you disregard them?

Based on the Bahai.org site, if you disregard the rituals, wouldn't it be much closer to your goal if only prayer and community service were part of your religion and not feasts, fasting, study, or anything else that defines you?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Since I'm talking about expression and many truths and how each person's truths are not separated from themselves, saying that they are not objective like the sun is saying that, say, Bahaullah is only a symbol and your belief doesn't mean anything concrete.

I can express many things through my art (music). The very act of that expression may be deeply spiritual like an act of worship. However I wouldn't use the word truth to describe my expression.

I have many beliefs. Some of them are true, some are false. Some I can prove, some I can not.

It's like calling the Eucharist a symbol and, well, just depreciating what it means for religious truth to be considered fact no matter what other atheist wants to disagree.

No its not because Eucharist connects to a real story. Even if the last supper never happened there is much meaning and truth within the symbolism. Stories and symbols are used in religion to convey spiritual meanings. This is a sacrament that I'm familiar with and have profound respect for, even though I do not partake. To say I'm deprecating someone's religion because I believe in science and religion makes no sense.

My point in 814 is:

There are many expressions
One Expression is a truth
Hence there are many truths.

Expressions are our religion
There are many religions
There are many truths

The difficulty for me, is making sense of how you use the words 'expression', 'truth', and 'religion'.

They are not subjective. If they were, you could change your belief just as well as I can change mine. Your beliefs are facts to you (or why would you be defending them?) So, that's why we are discussing beliefs.

If I realised I held a belief that was false, I would no longer belief it because its false. Some beliefs I know to be true, others I believe because I have faith.

Also, if you can separate your belief from objective reality, then I have to ask is your belief false? Imaginary? What is it based on if god, Bahaullah, prophets, etc are not true as the earth goes around the sun?

I belief that we have an eternal soul. I can not prove or disprove this belief based on reason or science. I believe this because of the words of the Baha'u'llah.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Christians believe what they believe, just as you believe what you believe. It doesn't help to argue with him, and tell him he's wrong, or try to convince him how wrong he is. Why not just accept that he has a different belief than you, and just lovingly leave it at that?

Because we need to validate religious experience and refute what is vain and false.

If a Christian tells me he believes the Jesus came and taught him how to live a better and happier life, what could be the problem. We would affirm that religious experience.

If a Christian tells me 'Jesus physically rose from the dead, so only Christianity is true, and the other faiths are wrong' then that's entirely different.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I read what you said.



The point is, you cannot do that. Your religion has external forms just as every other religion. These "forms", if you like, are expressions. Each expression is one truth. Expression X is one truth. Expression Y another. There are more than one truths.

Forms/religions/expressions are inseparable. The result of these practices are love, compassion, etc but love, compassion, etc are not the foundation of these religions. There is no one religion (Bahai isn't the one religion that is true in getting things right). There are no "right" religions because they are all truth. Every single one of them.

All religions are right and true we agree fully with that. But we believe that religious truth is relative not absolute so there was one Revelation for each age.

This is the age of world consciousness so a religion has been given with teachings for world unity which could not have been given in past ages because the world had not yet been discovered so it would have meaningless. Imagine if a religion today were given for interplanetary unity. It would be laughed at because we have yet to visit other planets let alone discover other life.

But today when international travel and communications has all the different nationalities, religions and races coming together , we need a common ethic.

And this is what has been prescribed for our age and to address our current circumstances.

"That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith.”

 

[Vinayaka]

Because we need to validate religious experience and refute what is vain and false.

Which is precisely how many people view the Bahai. These ideas of 'I'm right and you're wrong' and 'my religion is superiour to yours' can only be relinquished when we have true respect for all (non-violent) faiths. You somehow like to present that the Bahai as immune to dogma, and this attitude. When looking at it from the outside it's easy to see its just another of the same old same old ... dogma that says I'm right and you're wrong.

There is no way you can validate MY experience. But if I did tell you my expereince, no doubt you would do your best to refute it as vain and false.

Now I personally don't believe in Christ's resurrection. After all, I'm not a Christian. But I'm certainly not about to try to undermine a person's central belief. That's just disrespectful.

 

[Vinayaka]

All religions are right and true we agree fully with that. But we believe that religious truth is relative not absolute so there was one Revelation for each age.

No you don't believe that. You go right on to contradict the first sentence repeatedly. If you did believe that with your heart, you wouldn't be pointing out all the faults with 'previous' religions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Interesting. Think I know the issue.

My art is me. I cannot separate the expression (how I express or -thinking of another word- "do" my art) can't be separated from me. It defines me. My expression defines me.

My expression; my art is my religion. It defines my passion, how I pray, how I see the world, give gratitude, conduct my everyday affairs, even get help during therapy sessions, art has taught me so much.

As a result, I call this truth. Not universal truth since not everyone shares the same truth as I do (my point) but the truth that helps me both subjectively and objectively; it isn't separate from the sun.

I can express many things through my art (music). The very act of that expression may be deeply spiritual like an act of worship. However I wouldn't use the word truth to describe my expression.

We differ. I would. That's why I said maybe you don't have a passion for art. I love playing the piano. It touches my soul. It's not my passion. I love to dance, but that isn't a passion. I love creative activity regardless of what it is. But my passions are truth and there are but so many I'd use to devote my life to. I'm trying to expand and come out of my comfort zone.

No its not because Eucharist connects to a real story. Even if the last supper never happened there is much meaning and truth within the symbolism. Stories and symbols are used in religion to convey spiritual meanings. This is a sacrament that I'm familiar with and have profound respect for, even though I do not partake. To say I'm deprecating someone's religion because I believe in science and religion makes no sense.

Eucharist isn't symbolic, it's literal. It's connected to stories because it supports the actual event that happened and what these stories are based on. If I saw it only symbolic, I could just go to a Baptist Church be just as happy. But the two experiences are completely different.

It has nothing to do with science. I've repeated, though, how you (only as a Bahai not as a person) or in other words, through your belief, depreciate other people's beliefs. In my opinion, if you are to have a religion you accept in your belief, you have to get that belief correct, understand it, and be respectful to full devotees and let them define their scripture for you not Bahuallah or anyone else.

The difficulty for me, is making sense of how you use the words 'expression', 'truth', and 'religion'.

I see it one and the same.

If I realised I held a belief that was false, I would no longer belief it because its false. Some beliefs I know to be true, others I believe because I have faith.

Some people believe in false religions (as one of you said) but they aren't awaken to the truth.. and so on and so forth. It's the same with Bahai. Ya'll just more peaceful with it. Most religions I know say your belief is between you and your person or object of worship. I only know Muslims and Christians to be demanding. Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist are but it's strictly political and has nothing to do with the religion if any.

I belief that we have an eternal soul. I can not prove or disprove this belief based on reason or science. I believe this because of the words of the Baha'u'llah.

Do you know your beliefs are true?

At one time we didn't know how the earth went around the sun but that didn't mean it was false. The earth doesn't revolve around us

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All religions are right and true we agree fully with that.

You believe that each religion has individual truths and not one truth?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No you don't believe that. You go right on to contradict the first sentence repeatedly. If you did believe that with your heart, you wouldn't be pointing out all the faults with 'previous' religions.

You caught it too! Good it wasn't just me.

Just had to get that out.... post on..

 

[loverofhumanity]

This, by itself, is wrong. Jesus put himself up over everyone else even other prophets such as Moses and Abraham. He didn't belittle them but he did say he was the "big guy" in the game now and if you don't go through me, you won't make it through the play offs. Christ says it well when he returned to the NBA to play last year. Check it out.

All Prophets have made similar statements.

We believe the religion Christ taught was all about love and unity not superiority.

Christ we believe taught even to love ones enemies and those who persecute you. There us no emphasis in superiority.

John 13

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”