How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Just another question to Adrian009 and loverofhumanity... What is your personal take on why women are not allowed to sit on Bahai's universal House of Justice?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I guess I just automatically take some things for granted. Don't mean to come as being without mutual respect
or common curtesy. I am just happy to learn what you believe and more importantly, why.

Sounds much better. Its a journey of learning for us both that never ends. We all have our reasons for believing what we do. I see discussions such as these an opportunity to learn about the faiths of others.

That is an interesting point. We do believe in God, Jesus and the Bible and the use of the KJV bible. But
it is the Baha'i part that does leave me wondering why.

Talk to the Baha'is here for long enough and that will become clear.

As the preaching has happened of the Gospels then surely you see the times of the Lord approaching.
We differ here if you believe Christ has already returned.

That's our difference. Baha'u'llah is to me, what Christ is to you.

I am not weary, I see no reason to be weary and maybe it is because I am sure about where I am in my faith.
Though I am not complacent in that I still believe there are things to learn.

My weariness has nothing to do with being uncertain about my faith.

I don't understand the Baha'u;llah. God has always been the final authority for me and Christ came in that
authority. So whilst I believe Christ fulfilled the scriptures my trust is in God.I believe it was the
same with Christ.

Do you believe it will be the same Jesus that returns, like the same body?

The NT was not around in the time of Christ and the Disciples. They only ever preached from the OT
Scriptures. Believers are Jews the Christian was really just an insult name as you know, which stuck.
Like Christ, I see only OT as the scripture but I do believe the NT is the works of the disciples though
I do not think they would have really used it as man has done today. I believe these inspired men wrote
letters and accounts for people to know the truth.

Of course the gospels were written many years after Christ's crucifixion. Then only two of the gospel writers, John and Matthew could be considered eye witnesses. Some scholars will argue that none of them were. I believe the apostles I believe were inspired by God's unerring spirit.

Do you identify with a denomination of Christianity or just consider yourself Christian?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Just another question to Adrian009 and loverofhumanity... What is your personal take on why women are not allowed to sit on Bahai's universal House of Justice?

Good question and one that I don't have an answer to. Abdu'l-Baha said it would be clear as the noon day sun as to why Baha'u'llah indicated that it would be men only. Whatever the reason, it has nothing to do with the differing capacity of men and women. Unlike the local and national assemblies that are elected annually, the Universal House of Justice is elected every 5 years and requires its members to spend much time based in Israel.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me, especially given that the name is Arabic for a very common Abrahamic utterance.

Since that is not the name he was born with, they could have given him any name, like Lord God Almighty or something. The "Glory of God" is a nice title though. But, he took that title as a grown man, so you're kinda right, sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I wonder if his title means something significant in the prophecies in other religions?

 

[Vinayaka]

Good question and one that I don't have an answer to. Abdu'l-Baha said it would be clear as the noon day sun as to why Baha'u'llah indicated that it would be men only. Whatever the reason, it has nothing to do with the differing capacity of men and women. Unlike the local and national assemblies that are elected annually, the Universal House of Justice is elected every 5 years and requires its members to spend much time based in Israel.

Thanks. I read that too. As with you, I have no idea why women couldn't sit in that house?

 

[CG Didymus]

Most beliefs don't have, as their main tenant a part of another person's belief. Christianity took paganism and deformed it. It wasn't pretty. They also don't realize half the things they are doing is Pagan related...

This part of your post is really crucial for me. I would have to agree with you, because virgin births, a triune God, rising from the dead, the role of The Satan/devil and hell are not all that important in Judaism or not there at all. So where did these ideas come from? I think it very well could be a mix of Pagan and Jewish concepts.

But then like we've been saying, no matter where they came from, not just minor beliefs of Christianity, but even the greatest beliefs of Christianity, beliefs that are at the core of Christianity, are done away with if the Baha'i Faith is correct. If those beliefs are part Pagan, part Jewish, then how real was Christianity in the first place? But that is not what they are saying. Somehow, the Baha'is affirm the truth of Christianity while, at the same time, negating pretty much everything Christians believe in.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I had to look this up and found it was from a story by Oscar Wilde, The next line interesting also:
“Cecil Graham: What is a cynic?
Lord Darlington: A man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.
Cecil Graham: And a sentimentalist, my dear Darlington, is a man who sees an absurd value in everything and doesn’t know the market price of any single thing.”

What do you mean by it? 'Cause I think I'm very cynical of religion sometimes. Considering all the bad that comes from religions, is this a wrong attitude? Should I disregard the bad and only look at the few good things that religions have done?

Now humans and their capacity for good? Why do you say that all the religions were originally good and have been corrupted by humans? Why would humans not corrupt the "good thing" that Baha'u'llah has brought to the world also?

I'm a cynic too. I think we need to look at the good and bad, not just one or the other.

In regards to the Baha'i system being freed from corruption, that would apply to the international governing body, the Universal House of Justice that according to Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament.

Baha'i elections differ significantly from democracies we are familiar with in the West. Locally we elect nine people each year to serve on our local spiritual assemblies. It is the sacred and spiritual obligation of each Baha'i to prayerfully elect nine members who we consider would best serve on an assembly. One example of the qualities required is when Shoghi Effendi has asked us to consider only those who best combine the qualities of a well trained mind, mature experience, selfless devotion, unquestioned loyalty, and recognised ability. All Baha'is over the age of 21 years in good standing are free to vote and eligible for election. There are no nominations and most importantly there is no electioneering. It s a good system locally for having the best people on our assemblies.

Nationally the process is somewhat different. Each year we have elections in our locality for delegates who will attend a National convention, consult for several days to make recommendations to the incoming National Assembly and elect the new National Spiritual Assembly. All Baha'is throughout the country are eligible for election to the National body. Through this process I believe we have our most able and spiritual members on our National body.

Every 5 years members of every National Spiritual Assembly in the world meets for an international convention to consult and elect our Universal House of Justice members. Currently there are nearly 200 such National Assemblies.

Any decision made is through consultation according to Baha'i principles and while most decisions made are unanimously, sometimes the decision is made by majority vote.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Somehow, the Baha'is affirm the truth of Christianity while, at the same time, negating pretty much everything Christians believe in.

Pretty much. I mean, Christianity acknowledges their views are mixed given if it wasn't, it would be pure Judaism without the book of Acts. It's so mixed into their belief that to disengage it would be disengaging a whole culture.

I mean, I hate the Pagan and Christian mix but they were not avoidable. Both parties killed each other for whatever reasons and cultures adopted naturally into each other because of it.

What I don't care for in Bahai is they say they believe in, say, the one god of many in Hinduism and not acknowledging that the gods they believe in from Hinduism cannot be separated from the religion itself. So, if they accept the god, they have to accept the culture, traditions, and beliefs with which this god comes from. If they make a claim about this same god, it has to be interpreted from a Hindu point of view and agreed by a Hindu and interpreted from scripture by a Hindu. Also, as told, Bahaullah's teachings don't talk specifically about the selective founder's belief system just the goal of each founder and the bahai view that each founder is a prophet from god and foretell the coming of Bahaullah. Now, these founders cannot be separated from the religion, culture, and traditions that define them and their purpose. So if you accept the founder, you have to accept the culture, traditions, and teachings as said by that religion and not small parts from Bahaullah.

But I have not yet heard a clear prophecy from Hinduism, Christianity, Quran, and Zoroaster that they foretold the coming of Bahuallah. That's like christians telling me christ is god by scripture that shows christ relationship with god not him actually being god.

But what can I say?

 

[CG Didymus]

...The original sin doctrine is good example of dogma or something that is man made and nothing to do with the Teachings of Christ IMHO.

The main problems are:
(1) We (humanity) are punished or 'fallen' because of a supposed sin our distant ancestors committed. But then what reasonable judge would find me guilty of a crime that my grandfather committed? It just doesn't make sense.

(2) We have this rather negative outlook of what it means to be human whereas God has created us in His image and we are noble beings. We are temples of God in the bible.

(3) The story is symbolic and not to be taken literally.

...Christ spoke of is Return. Take away all the extraordinary events that Christians belief will accompany His Return and we have a man who is 'Christ' like. The Jews expected a Messiah based on their Hebrew bible. Most Jews rejected Jesus as being their Messiah but He was. Its simply history repeating itself, but now the Christians reject their Messiah...

I presume you read this:

..'I am not the first Buddha Who came upon this earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a Holy One, a supremely enlightened One, endowed with wisdom in conduct, auspicious knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a Master of angels and mortals. He will reveal to you the same eternal truths which I have taught you. He will preach to you His religion, glorious in its origin, glorious at the climax and glorious at the goal, in spirit and in the letter. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure, such as I now proclaim.' His disciples will number many thousands, while Mine number many hundreds.'
Metteyya

What do you make of it?

You and Carlita really get into some interesting things. I have some comments and questions for you tied in with your response to her. I start at the bottom and work up.

I clicked on the link for the Metteyya and read a few of the other stories in there. Under "Enlightenment" it said, "...selfhood blinds them, and they cling to their obnoxious desires. They crave pleasure for themselves and they cause pain to others; when death destroys their individuality, they find no peace; their thirst for existence abides and their selfhood reappears in new births."

What do you make of that? It is way too easy to find passages that help your cause, but it's not fair if you disregard the rest of the teachings. Here it sure seems like he's teaching that as long as we cling to "self" we will be stuck reincarnating into this world.

"The Jews expected a Messiah based on their Hebrew bible." Well, yeah. God told them what to look for and what to expect. Why would they think God was trying to confuse them with vague references and "symbolic" things that threw them off? Matthew has a whole slew of references like Ramah crying for her children because they are no more or something like that. He says that God will call his son out of Egypt and that Jesus will be called a Nazarene. All vague and out of context. My all time favorite "prophecy" is using a sign for King Ahaz as pointing to the virgin birth of Jesus.

Since he didn't do as prophesied, Christians say those things will be fulfilled when he returns. Well, you say he's here. Have all the Bible prophecies been fulfilled?

The last the "Original Sin"? Why did Christians think they needed to come up with this doctrine? I think it's because Jesus dying for our sins doesn't work unless we are all hopelessly lost in sin. So they believe God had to send himself, as his own son, to Earth to be the perfect sacrifice. He couldn't be born normally, because the taint of sin would have been passed on to him. So he was virgin born. Makes sense, right? And you say they are man-made doctrines. What human mind could make up this stuff, and keep a straight face, it has to be from God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I can't believe how many pages have gone by. Remember this post of yours? I was using the school analogy and had Krishna as the teacher. You answered with "ask those in the Hindu DIR"? No. You can't get off that easy. In post #904 you say you believe in the "original" teachings of the founder of a religion, then tell me... what are those original teachings? What did they say about why we are here? Where are we going? How do we get there? When did and how did creation happen? You know, just the basic beliefs that each founder taught, originally.

This is a publication known as the New Garden in PDF form and in it you can find basic information about all the Manifestations including Krishna. Krishna taught that we must turn away from ourselves and our thought s and that we are not our bodies but higher beings and we do not die as we are not our bodies. The Battle in the Bhagavad-Gita we believe us the inner battle against the self. It is like a war where we must kill bad qualities.

Krishna said in the Bhagavad-Gita that whenever civilisation declines and wickedness abounds He returns.

Whenever there is a decline in righteousness, O Bharat, and the rise of irreligion, it is then that I send forth My spiritFor the salvation of the good, the destruction of the wicked, and for firmly establishing true religion (Dharma), I manifest myself from age to age. (18)

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/f/fatheazam_new_garden.pdf

This is a very interesting article about the Vedic perspective of creation from the Aitareya- Upanishad.

http://esamskriti.com/essays/Aitareya-Upanishad.pdf

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm a cynic too. I think we need to look at the good and bad, not just one or the other.

In regards to the Baha'i system being freed from corruption, that would apply to the international governing body, the Universal House of Justice that according to Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament.

Baha'i elections differ significantly from democracies we are familiar with in the West. Locally we elect nine people each year to serve on our local spiritual assemblies. It is the sacred and spiritual obligation of each Baha'i to prayerfully elect nine members who we consider would best serve on an assembly. One example of the qualities required is when Shoghi Effendi has asked us to consider only those who best combine the qualities of a well trained mind, mature experience, selfless devotion, unquestioned loyalty, and recognised ability. All Baha'is over the age of 21 years in good standing are free to vote and eligible for election. There are no nominations and most importantly there is no electioneering. It s a good system locally for having the best people on our assemblies.

Nationally the process is somewhat different. Each year we have elections in our locality for delegates who will attend a National convention, consult for several days to make recommendations to the incoming National Assembly and elect the new National Spiritual Assembly. All Baha'is throughout the country are eligible for election to the National body. Through this process I believe we have our most able and spiritual members on our National body.

Every 5 years members of every National Spiritual Assembly in the world meets for an international convention to consult and elect our Universal House of Justice members. Currently there are nearly 200 such National Assemblies.

Any decision made is through consultation according to Baha'i principles and while most decisions made are unanimously, sometimes the decision is made by majority vote.

Yes, I know a little about it... And the decisions they make are considered the infallible Word of God unless the ruling doesn't work and then they can change it. How is that different then the Catholics and their infallible Popes? Same idea, but how's that working out?

 

[CG Didymus]

This is a publication known as the New Garden in PDF form and in it you can find basic information about all the Manifestations including Krishna. Krishna taught that we must turn away from ourselves and our thought s and that we are not our bodies but higher beings and we do not die as we are not our bodies. The Battle in the Bhagavad-Gita we believe us the inner battle against the self. It is like a war where we must kill bad qualities.

Krishna said in the Bhagavad-Gita that whenever civilisation declines and wickedness abounds He returns.

Whenever there is a decline in righteousness, O Bharat, and the rise of irreligion, it is then that I send forth My spiritFor the salvation of the good, the destruction of the wicked, and for firmly establishing true religion (Dharma), I manifest myself from age to age. (18)

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/f/fatheazam_new_garden.pdf

This is a very interesting article about the Vedic perspective of creation from the Aitareya- Upanishad.

http://esamskriti.com/essays/Aitareya-Upanishad.pdf

Thanks, I'll check them out tomorrow. My eyes and brain are sore. I can't imagine how you and Adrian009 are doing. This has got to be rough on you guys. And I do think you're both doing a bang up job. But I still got more tough questions. See you tomorrow.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, it just gets more interesting having this chat.

When I was a part of the Church, I didn't believe in god the Father. I believe everyone has a spirit; so, I believed in the spirit of christ. When we are baptized, the spirit of christ literally washes your sins. Going to confession, christ literally forgives you (though, I had a issue understanding forgiveness from someone I didn't know). Taking the Eucharist is literally being a part of Christ's body-the people of the Church. When the people of the Church come together to the Lord's Supper, it is an reenactment (since we are not Peter, John, and Jodas, for example) and it brings Christ himself apparent because his spirit is in each of us as the body of christ. That's a few reasons the Eucharist is literal and so important. To say it is not is saying all Catholics have a symbolic relationship with Christ. No Christian I know (and I know a lot) would call their relationship with Christ symbolic regardless the denomination.

Why would it be telling you you are wrong? Catholic's just believe non-catholics are a part of the body of christ. What I don't care for is that other Christians can't take the Eucharist. I understand why, though.

So it sounds as if the 'spirit' of Christ is becoming more like the 'Spirit' of Christ, if it can wash away your sin, forgive you, and is in you. You're sounding very Christian to me.

I consider my relationship with Christ or Baha'u'llah real, not symbolic. However the bread and wine are not Christ, but symbolise aspects of my real relationship with Him.

On that note,

1. The only sin I understood is the one I committed at that present moment. All day today, I could go without sinning. Probably a lot of people can. I mean I have murder in my family and I'm not a murderer. There are a lot of things from my actual blood ancestors that are a part of me and some things that are not. Since sin isn't something I believe is inherited, I would never believe my family gave me something inheritedly bad.

As for Adam and Eve, I don't agree they are the first humans. The story doesn't sound historical, factual, and it doesn't ring as something that makes sense or logic.

2. I understand that. If I were christian, I'd agree. Every christian is a child of god since god created them. I don't know how they can see otherwise. Some to the point of submission as if god is going to rain on them because they sinned. It's saddening to see, really.

Haha. Actually, yeah, it's not symbolic.

1. We actually sin (commit transgressions against god)
2. Most christians believe they are literally a child of god. If not, is god symbolic?

Cain wondering off to the land of Nod to find himself a wife almost conclusively proves that Adam and Eve were not the first humans, unless Cain's wife was his sister!? Genesis 4:16-17

We agree that sin isn't inherited.

How about forgiveness of sins? How does that work? The Catholics go to confession. The Protestants and the Baha'i do not. I wonder if we have another 'dogma' in our midst? It may also be worth considering 'how' we are forgiven, and 'how' we are saved. I believe it is our commitment to the teachings of Christ/Baha'u'llah through our recognition of Him and through living the life. Therefore it is by both 'Faith' and 'deeds' that we are saved.

I don't believe that confessing our sins to a priest will make any difference to our salvation or forgiveness.

Ha. You'd probably get me to read more of his writings just because of those verses. If there were an art scripture, I'd totally covert.

I'm not expecting a conversion but here's some more writings to consider:

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/compilations/arts_crafts.pdf

Arts

Music

I was pursuing music as my work when I became a Baha'i so it was really helpful that my new found faith affirmed the validity of what I was doing.

See! Why didn't you say so when I asked you a couple of times. Are you sure you're Bahai? JW doesn't believe in a lot of mainstream christianity yet they are still christian.

Looks like were both Christians after all

Yeah. They have a high emphasis on their president more than The Buddha and Nichiren Shonin. That made it as if I were worshiping a human. Never liked that. Everyone are buddhas, The Buddha said. We just have to realize it through practice.

I did want to clear up, from another post that you asked David (@loverofhumanity) about. Baha'is of course are very involved in interfaith projects and community building activities. However we don't go gate crashing other religions and telling them what their faith really means!

Cool. I only met the Hinduis at the temple I went. Here, at RF, probably some may go to a Bahai temple if they are not offended with the message Bahai says about Hinduis. I go to Mass during Easter even though the Church misinterprets homosexuality and doesn't agree with who I am as a person. Sometimes we go out of our comfort zones. So, that's cool.

Many Hindu's visit the lotus temple in New Delhi, India.

Lotus Temple - Wikipedia

I think there is much more acceptance and love towards people of same sex persuasion these days from many religionists so no barrier to you praying in a Baha'i temple or devotional meeting if the opportunity arose.

On that note, better run. I have a bible study meeting with my Christian buddies to attend. The return of Christ is on the agenda.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Thank you for the links to clarify your position...

My whole point with this is that however long ago it happened, or whatever culture it was hosted in, the equality of the sexes is nothing new. Furthering my claim that Baha'i isn't really bringing anything new to the table. Even using mythology (which I think is hypocritical to criticize this, given that the bible (which is nothing more than mythology,) is often used to back up Abrahamic claims), the high role of women in ancient civilizations is plain to see. Add to this known historical figures such as Blenda, Lagertha, Aslaug, Brunhild, Boudica, Scathach, Helen, Andromache, Medea, and many others that I am likely forgetting, and the role that women had in society is quite hard to ignore.

I think it is also very fair criticism that for all the talk of equality in Baha'i, that you do not have women leaders is very telling. Words are wind, and actions speak much louder. Where are your women writers, spiritual leaders, elders? It's a fine idea to introduce so far back (though after the world had begun to empower women again), but an idea that falls flat when nothing is done about it.

The woman of Spartan appears your strongest argument for women having real power,

No, actually Scandinavian culture was/is my strongest argument. Sparta has just received more positive attention here.

However it appears to strengthen my argument that such occurrences where women in history have equal status to men are the exception rather than the rule.

No, it really just shows that men like Aristotle wrote history in their favor, and that their manner of society was more favored by those in power.

The problem with the article you sent is it has no references to original sources, just other books written in the last 30 years that in all likelihood perpetuate mythology rather than provide us with any concrete facts.

Do they perpetuate mythology or do they not? (An uneven accusation, at best.) It is not enough for you to dismiss it on "all likelihood." Those "other books" are the sources, adrian.

I certainly don't idealise any country let alone my own.

Then why bring up the Peace Index, and point to where my country ranks at all? My point with this is that you claim the posed Baha'i global government will be totally free from corruption. Yet from what we can see to this day, even the most peaceful and prosperous places on Earth are not free from corruption, even when they are as small as Iceland. Do you really think that corruption will be entirely wiped out when a government is expanded to all the globe, with all the nations acting under their own governments (somehow) and their own local interests?

 

[arthra]

What I don't care for in Bahai is they say they believe in, say, the one god of many in Hinduism and not acknowledging that the gods they believe in from Hinduism cannot be separated from the religion itself.

Ever heard of Brahmo Samaj?

see:

Brahmo Samaj - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

Christians reject their Messiah????????

???????

I don't know if we're ready to have this discussion.

Yes. The next world being this earth to take care of those they love.

Hmmm. Not sure if that answers my question about an eternal soul.

How do you understand yourself without analyzing yourself? There was a thread somewhere around here that talked about do christians question their own beliefs. It's not wrong to rationalize your belief. It's something you know is true, why not proble and go from your comfort zone. Don't worry, you can return.

But I do analyse myself. You have to be reasonably messed up and together all at once to do psychiatry. I'm considering my beliefs all the time. I couldn't be here if I was unable to do that.

I agree to disagree. How's that?

Is that talk to the hand?

Check this about for cultural misappropriation.

Top 40 Most Helpful Messianic Prophecies - Jews for Jesus

Jews for Jesus. The Christians have just claimed the entire Hebrew Bible as their own!

The Lotus Sutra predicted many Buddhas. Each chapter or probably every other analogy he predicted another buddha. He said that buddhas will protect the Dharma. They will read, write, and recite it. They will practice the Dharma. It's not like Christianity where there is one savior. If you want to call it a savior, in Buddhism, there are many. Read The Lotus Sutra (Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra) There are a lot of Buddhas returning.

I'ma get a couple of passages. There are a lot of Buddhas returning. Many are bodhisattvas becoming Buddhas who are in some sects incarnations of The Buddha himself. Others are bodhisattvas and appear in this world to help others to enlightenment before one helps themselves. You are a buddha and I am a buddha.

Think you're mixing christianity with buddhism.

This is great. You can teach me about Buddhism. What do you mean by incarnation and how do we become Buddhas?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Haha. Me? Christian? I rather practice in the Church if I had a choice. I don't believe I have inherited sin as taught, so no reason to be saved. Don't understand how a person can die for you over 2,000 years ago. Really not diggin' the heaven, hell, and judgement stories. Mainly, I must believe christ Is god in order for me to be in union with the Church and Christians as a whole. Can't be a so-so christian all because everyone has a spirit.

So it sounds as if the 'spirit' of Christ is becoming more like the 'Spirit' of Christ, if it can wash away your sin, forgive you, and is in you. You're sounding very Christian to me.

Like my ancestors, except for the "wash away your sins part". Christ is in you means the body of christ is in you when you come to Mass and commune with like-minded people. Wash way sins is another word for baptism where the water you are emerged in literally purifies you to a conviction of a christian life. Christ doesn't need to be affiliated to a religion to be "in" me. Though, I'd have to be with people of like-minds to understand and live in Christ as I live in and through and as my ancestors because we are blood related. Christ isn't blooded related to me. So, it's hard to get to know him as a person.

I consider my relationship with Christ or Baha'u'llah real, not symbolic. However the bread and wine are not Christ, but symbolise aspects of my real relationship with Him.

To each his own? That doesn't make sense as a Catholic. If you say you're protestant (outside Lutheran) I'd see what you mean. Though, ever since I started understanding the nature of the Eucharist/communion-where people commune, I always wondered why and how people can commune if the Lord's Supper is just a symbol to them and bread and wine doesn't bring people together as did the Lord's Supper. Unless the Supper was symbolic?

My point is: The Eucharist is a communal meal that when people come together (body of christ) and it is more than one person (as said in scripture), god is made present in the supper that joins us together as a Mass. Nothing mystical about the Eucharist. That's all protestant thinking.

Cain wondering off to the land of Nod to find himself a wife almost conclusively proves that Adam and Eve were not the first humans, unless Cain's wife was his sister!? Genesis 4:16-17

Shrugs. I think Catholics believe it was Ada and Eve.

We agree that sin isn't inherited.

True. Catholic's believe it is. I believe Catholics are Christians. So the Church and I disagree on that one.

How about forgiveness of sins? How does that work? The Catholics go to confession. The Protestants and the Baha'i do not. I wonder if we have another 'dogma' in our midst? It may also be worth considering 'how' we are forgiven, and 'how' we are saved. I believe it is our commitment to the teachings of Christ/Baha'u'llah through our recognition of Him and through living the life. Therefore it is by both 'Faith' and 'deeds' that we are saved.

Confession means repentance to god and god only.

Repentance means asking god and god only to forgive you of your sins so you can back together with the Body of Christ, remember your baptism (conversion as a christian), and remember your conviction statements that you believe in Church doctrine-called confirmation.

You don't repent/confess to god of your sins?

I don't believe that confessing our sins to a priest will make any difference to our salvation or forgiveness.

That's the problem. You think it's the priest. Catholics know it's god. You are seeing outside. Catholics see inside. You hear the priest saying "I absolve you." Catholics listen to the priest who says "god absolves you." Catholics believe in god.

The difference between protestants and catholics is that the priest acts in the role of christ (hence his role in Mass). Protestant churches, pastors do not. So when the priest says I absolve you, he is just saying the words christ would say to the pentinent. In some Catholics they need that physical reasurrance that god and god only forgives them.

I don't understand how anyone else who isn't Roman Catholic (excluding Orthodox Catholic even Lutheran-who are protestants) does not see that.

Looks like were both Christians after all

By confirmation not belief. Try again.

I did want to clear up, from another post that you asked David (@loverofhumanity) about. Baha'is of course are very involved in interfaith projects and community building activities. However we don't go gate crashing other religions and telling them what their faith really means!

SGI doesn't do that. A lot of Churches don't.

Many Hindu's visit the lotus temple in New Delhi, India.

If I were a Hindu, I wouldn't. That's like when I was a practicing Catholic and my southern baptist friends invited me to their church. The sermon was geared towards Catholics and free masons and how they are sin and not real christians. It was a huge insult. I don't go where teachings are preached that are insulting and/or misinterprets the Christian faith. Hence my sig.

Everyone is difference.

I think there is much more acceptance and love towards people of same sex persuasion these days from many religionists so no barrier to you praying in a Baha'i temple or devotional meeting if the opportunity arose.

I wish the Church was accepting. They even want to "cure" people. Have programs to do it too. It's sad couples can't get married in their own Church when Christ didn't talk about marriage between two males and two females in the bible. It's not wrong, it's just not in there. How could it be wrong if christ never spoke about it.

On that note, better run. I have a bible study meeting with my Christian buddies to attend. The return of Christ is on the agenda.

lol Have fun and happy learning.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmmm. Not sure if that answers my question about an eternal soul.

I don't believe the soul passes through the next world. I believe a soul (I'll say spirits) stay on earth (not the next world) to take care of their loved ones.

But I do analyse myself. You have to be reasonably messed up and together all at once to do psychiatry. I'm considering my beliefs all the time. I couldn't be here if I was unable to do that.

How do you analyze your belief unless you pretend that your beliefs are false in order to see other people's point of view. Analyzing beliefs as "other people's beliefs" and looking into yourself and your belief isn't what I meant, though.

Is that talk to the hand?

Naw. It's putting your hand over your face. You have to give me a minute to translate it.

This is great. You can teach me about Buddhism. What do you mean by incarnation and how do we become Buddhas?

We become Buddhas by practice. Each sect in Mahayana Buddhism has their own way. Zen feels that to attach to anything (god included) is going away from being enlightened. Nichiren Shonin taught to chant the Dharma to a reflection of ourselves in the Dharma/Gohonzon to reach that state of enlightenment. Others prefer meditation as that's The Buddha's main practice and foundation of all other practices.

Incarnation, have to get back to you..going to work soon.

 

[Dawnofhope]

And why was that? The Christian Church was losing the young. We found more truth in rock and roll than in Jesus. Of course a lot of us went to the extreme and fell over the edge, but some of us looked to the East and found a wealth of spiritual truths that we had never heard before. One of those was the Baha'i Faith, and I learned a lot from them. But then, ironically, in the mid '70 a bunch of my hippie friends found Jesus?

I've been screwed up ever since, because they say "Jesus is the only way" "Jesus rose from the dead" "We are all sinners and can't save ourselves. Jesus paid the penalty. Just believe and be saved... or you're going to hell." I tried to believe but couldn't. And since none of the religions taught the same thing... what was the truth? Even sects within a religion don't teach the same thing.

Reading this I think we've been through a similar journey in life, except I became a Baha'i in my mid 20s. I loved rock'n'roll and music generally. I looked East and like you learned to breathe. My posture was never so good to begin with, I wasn't too supple so the lotus position was impossible, and the vegetarian diet only lasted for a couple of years.

The Christian Faith that I grew up with and explored as I was searching certainly has profoundly influenced my soul. Perhaps the most important experience was meeting so many beautiful people from different cultures and backgrounds. It just never made sense that Christianity could be the only way.

For several years I searched for 'the truth', not really understanding what was looking for and where to turn to. Then in my darkest times I prayed and felt my spirits lifted. When I prayed for guidance to as to my spiritual home, an invitation to a Baha'is meeting followed soon after. After investigating for 8 months I decided I may as well join up. 25+ years later I'm still investigating.

I clicked on the link for the Metteyya and read a few of the other stories in there. Under "Enlightenment" it said, "...selfhood blinds them, and they cling to their obnoxious desires. They crave pleasure for themselves and they cause pain to others; when death destroys their individuality, they find no peace; their thirst for existence abides and their selfhood reappears in new births."

What do you make of that? It is way too easy to find passages that help your cause, but it's not fair if you disregard the rest of the teachings. Here it sure seems like he's teaching that as long as we cling to "self" we will be stuck reincarnating into this world.

So like you I'm here to learn, not so much to teach. Christianity, the Baha'i faith, science, and a little history....all familiar territory. Buddhism is a work in progress and that's why I asked Carlita for her thoughts. To understand Christianity involves good knowledge of scripture, history, and most importantly putting it into practice.

It's true that to understand Buddhism we must consider all the scriptures. The verses you ask about appear to be about the life of the spirit of man, rather than his physical body. The idea of reincarnation seems very like the Christian idea of rebirth or being born again. These are my preliminary thoughts but until I have the kind of familiarity with Buddhist scripture that I do with the Bible, I can not say anything with certainty.

"The Jews expected a Messiah based on their Hebrew bible." Well, yeah. God told them what to look for and what to expect. Why would they think God was trying to confuse them with vague references and "symbolic" things that threw them off? Matthew has a whole slew of references like Ramah crying for her children because they are no more or something like that. He says that God will call his son out of Egypt and that Jesus will be called a Nazarene. All vague and out of context. My all time favorite "prophecy" is using a sign for King Ahaz as pointing to the virgin birth of Jesus.

The prophecies whether from the OT referring to Jesus, or from the bible in its entirety referring to Baha'u'llah, are circumstantial in nature, and I believe that is because God tests each one of us. Recall the reason why Jesus spoke in parables. Matthew 13:10-11

The virgin birth a proof? How can we possibly prove that Mary was a virgin?

The most important proofs are the Life and Teachings of the Manifestations themselves and the power they have to transform our lives and those around us. Prophecies have their place.

Since he didn't do as prophesied, Christians say those things will be fulfilled when he returns. Well, you say he's here. Have all the Bible prophecies been fulfilled?

Most of them, yes. Some will be fulfilled once Baha'u'llah's world order is better established. Were there any you had in mind?

The last the "Original Sin"? Why did Christians think they needed to come up with this doctrine? I think it's because Jesus dying for our sins doesn't work unless we are all hopelessly lost in sin. So they believe God had to send himself, as his own son, to Earth to be the perfect sacrifice. He couldn't be born normally, because the taint of sin would have been passed on to him. So he was virgin born. Makes sense, right? And you say they are man-made doctrines. What human mind could make up this stuff, and keep a straight face, it has to be from God.

I love you're humour.

 

[arthra]

Just another question to Adrian009 and loverofhumanity... What is your personal take on why women are not allowed to sit on Bahai's universal House of Justice?

I agree with what Adrian has written above but would also like to add few things and that is appreciating the source of the Universal House of Justice in the context of history...

As I'm sure you are aware most new revelations in their early history of their development went through stages of conflicts and tensions...

In the case of Christianity you have the tension that existed between say Paul and James the Just.. The accusations against the so-called Judaizers.. The references to the Baptism of John as opposed to the baptism of the Holy Spirit perhaps and so on...

In Islam you had the tension between the family of the Prophet and subsequent Imams and the Caliphate.. this arose as you may knopw from not allowing the Prophet to leave detailed written instruction of His Will...

There were also tensions in the early development of the Baha'i Cause.. tensions within the family and some who broke away from acknowledging the succession to Abdul-Baha.. Now the Guardian Shoghi Effendi was trying to prepare the Baha'is for a future international house of justice and appointed the first one... later there was an elected one.. After his passing .. the Hands of the Cause made it their goal to establish the Universal House of Justice based on the instructions of Baha'u'llah Himself as the sole recognized authority and Center of the Cause...

Consider also the words of Abdul-Baha:

The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 68)

Know thou, O handmaid, that in the sight of Baha, women are accounted the same as men, and God hath created all humankind in His own image, and after His own likeness. That is, men and women alike are the revealers of His names and attributes, and from the spiritual viewpoint there is no difference between them. Whosoever draweth nearer to God, that one is the most favoured, whether man or woman. How many a handmaid, ardent and devoted, hath, within the sheltering shade of Baha, proved superior to the men, and surpassed the famous of the earth.

The House of Justice, however, according to the explicit text of the Law of God, is confined to men; this for a wisdom of the Lord God's, which will erelong be made manifest as clearly as the sun at high noon.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 79)

So after the passing of the Guardian the only Institution that could guide the Cause into the future and keep our unity was the House of Justice. Had they decided to ignore the specific instructions for the building and constituting of the House in 1963 it would have been worse for the Cause..

It should be noted as well that no member of the House of Justice by themselves wield any authority .. We have no clerical of ecclesiastical orders or institutions... No Mullahs or Imams.

The members of the House are elected internationally every five years.. this is not an "old boys club" and I challenge anyone to explore the many mandates and statements made by the House since it's inception.. you won't find any that are sexist or spout the superiority of the male sex.