How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vaderecta]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

Most likely people that had supernatural experiences, highly charismatic, lucky or some subset of all three. Specifically I think they might have been individuals who experienced being in flow or having an experience where their sense of self faded away and they had some level of access to being in a state of altered consciousness. Historically I think transcending consciousness was very rare and the domain of the few that stumbled on to a burning bush of a psychoactive compound or who had some other access to getting into what Navy Seals or Silicon value Execs call being in the zone. Flipping the switch to get out of your head and tuning into a greater form of existence.

Their ideas or stories were so game changing because they emerged from a realm anyone trapped in a normal state of consciousness could never grasp. They either were able to directly communicate those ideas in a very compelling fashion or more likely inspired many others who met them to tell their stories.

Their gift was probably defying the pale. They spoke of ideas and thoughts that the current elite saw as threatening to their power structure or to their current understanding of civilized parties.

They are from this world and I don't think their gifts are beyond most people's reach especially in today's world. Most don't need a great spiritual teacher but rather need to understand how to access flow and become their own and possibly others great spiritual teachers.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm not speaking about your religion but humanity in general if thry had been deprived of the Revelation of Jesus. We would not have advanced as much as we did.

I seriously doubt you read a single word of the Tirukkural.

I am deprived of the 'Revelation' as I simply don't personally believe in any of it. I guess that makes me a sinner in your mind. Yes, there are a few Hindus who see Jesus as a saint. I'm just not one of them. Nor do I believe your prophet has anything to do with Hinduism.

 

[Vinayaka]

At a garage sale I agree it can be seen as proselytizing. We do overstep these boundaries far too often as proselytizing is also against our laws.

I think it's ok to talk about ones religion when questions are asked or in an appropriate place like this but invading another persons privacy is another thing.

So is your International House of Justice working on remedying this? Do they issue warnings about undue proselytising, or is it mostly just polite talk?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I seriously doubt you read a single word of the Tirukkural.

I am deprived of the 'Revelation' as I simply don't personally believe in any of it. I guess that makes me a sinner in your mind. Yes, there are a few Hindus who see Jesus as a saint. I'm just not one of them. Nor do I believe your prophet has anything to do with Hinduism.

I went to Amazon and downloaded some samples as well as googled this site. I preferred the translation & format of this link but can't find an ebook of it.

Non Violence - Thirukural

Maybe you can advise a good ebook translation from Amazon as I attempted to buy it the day we discussed it but I'm not sure which is the best.

 

[Vinayaka]

View attachment 16549

I went to Amazon and downloaded some samples as well as googled this site. I preferred the translation & format of this link but can't find an ebook of it.

Non Violence - Thirukural

Maybe you can advise a good ebook translation from Amazon as I attempted to buy it the day we discussed it but I'm not sure which is the best.

Funny ... I google it just now, and there are lots ... here's an easy one. You can read it PDF on line.

https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/weavers-wisdom

 

[loverofhumanity]

So is your International House of Justice working on remedying this? Do they issue warnings about undue proselytising, or is it mostly just polite talk?

Yes they have addressed this topic in a letter which clearly delineates our parameters.

The second paragraph is where it begins.

http://www.bahai.org/library/author...ustice/messages/19820103_001/19820103_001.pdf

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes they have addressed this topic in a letter which clearly delineates our parameters.

The second paragraph is where it begins.

http://www.bahai.org/library/author...ustice/messages/19820103_001/19820103_001.pdf

Yes, I've read that in the past. Unfortunately, often what the Bahai say is 'teaching' or 'sharing' is seen by others, including myself, as clearly proselytizing. So it depends on definition. It's a very grey line, and there have been lots of complaints re anti-proselytizing laws in countries over the years about Bahai, so I am clearly not alone in this regard.

So just because you or the central authorities say something doesn't mean we non-Bahais accept it. It's the same as most non-Bahais don't accept your various interpretations of their religions.

I've had other proselytizing religions come to my door 'sharing' as well. No Bahais ... yet.

One Baha'i's approach...: Door-to-Door, part 2

 

[loverofhumanity]

Funny ... I google it just now, and there are lots ... here's an easy one. You can read it PDF on line.

https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/weavers-wisdom

I'm ignorant about the different titles this Book goes under. Weavers Wisdom I didn't think of. I bought the Amazon Cooy as it keeps the nice cover which was only $3. Anyhow I am indebted to you. This is definitely beautiful. Thanks very much for directing me to this beautiful literature.

Truth is eternal. It's just so reassuring that such wonderful literature has always graced humanity. It's just so sad that the whole world does not follow these principles and teachings.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, I've read that in the past. Unfortunately, often what the Bahai say is 'teaching' or 'sharing' is seen by others, including myself, as clearly proselytizing. So it depends on definition. It's a very grey line, and there have been lots of complaints re anti-proselytizing laws in countries over the years about Bahai, so I am clearly not alone in this regard.

So just because you or the central authorities say something doesn't mean we non-Bahais accept it. It's the same as most non-Bahais don't accept your various interpretations of their religions.

I've had other proselytizing religions come to my door 'sharing' as well. No Bahais ... yet.

One Baha'i's approach...: Door-to-Door, part 2

I see it also can be a cultural thing. For instance my wife is Burmese. Her family lives in a village in Burma where the doors are always open and they love to have visitors no matter teaching religion or selling something. But it depends on the place and people. But the best situation is where is a place where people go to talk about these issues.

In my town in Australia I've been living here for 15 years yet no one knows we're Baha'is because I don't tell them as there is no way I can do so without invading their privacy so I've avoided it.

But we often do misjudge and make mistakes some deliberately but I'm ready to admit an error of judgement as I'm far from perfect.

Just to add. I love having the Mormins, Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists knock on my door and I always invite them in as I believe in Jesus too and see it as a good time for us to have fellowship. I not only dont feel offended, I wish theyd come more often.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I seriously doubt you read a single word of the Tirukkural.

I am deprived of the 'Revelation' as I simply don't personally believe in any of it. I guess that makes me a sinner in your mind. Yes, there are a few Hindus who see Jesus as a saint. I'm just not one of them. Nor do I believe your prophet has anything to do with Hinduism.

Why should I look down on you? That is not what we are taught but to see the good in everyone. I don't see you as a sinner but I see my own faults and shortcoming each day many times.

I despair often about my ignorance as I know very little. I just have certain beliefs but that doesn't make me any more knowledgeable or right than others.

You have much more knowledge about Hinduism and Carlita also has much more knowledge than me. I'm just a simple person who has a strong belief in Baha'u'llah nothing else.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Borrowed knowledge is given to us through generations. They aren't reinterpretations of other religions mixed in our own but our own religion.

Christianity took from Paganism both mainstream and the shoot offs. That is wrong. Muslims did likewise. That is wrong. They killed. Bahai doesn't.

However, I wouldn't take them off the hook because I know what Christianity teaches and hearing a Bahai say something that isn't christianity, I wonder why they say Bahai accepts christianity when the christianity they accept isn't the actual christianity in scripture and none of the denominations (I know of, cause I practiced a lot) even teach.

So that leaves me dumbfounded. Borrow isn't a good word. Cultural appropriation is better. I don't care for that. Bahai isn't the only one. Just it happens to be the topic of discussion.

We accept Christ as a Prophet or the Son of God which Chrustians do also.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I read the full bible and know Bahaullah isn't in there and any of the quotes you mentioned doesn't mirror the foundation of Christian religion.

As for the specifics of revelation, unfortunately, I'm not well versed in the bible to agree or disagree. Revelations was a hard read. I'd have to re-read it to reply; but, my heart gets heavy when I read the bible. Its not a possitive read for me (hence my signature).

Baha'u'llah in English means 'glory of God'. In one Arabic translation of the Bible, the name Bahaullah was actually part of the text and interestingly only in the prophecies.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Baha'u'llah in English means 'glory of God'. In one Arabic translation of the Bible, the name Bahaullah was actually part of the text and interestingly only in the prophecies.

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me, especially given that the name is Arabic for a very common Abrahamic utterance.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Most beliefs don't have, as their main tenant a part of another person's belief. Christianity took paganism and deformed it. It wasn't pretty. They also don't realize half the things they are doing is Pagan related.

Bahai, on the other hand, does full acknowledge for example Hinduism. Although genuine, you do say that Bahaullah is prophecided in Hindu teachings. Since you are not like Christianity who practically don't care to the point of murder (sorry, side note), your genuine nature of your belief leaves me at awe at the point where I had to ask a Hindu about it. They said it wasn't, then that made me think why Bahai would say Hindu teachings predicted the coming of Bahaullah and then call it Hinduism when Hindu arent even religions-of-the-book.

Your differing beliefs is not the point. The point is the beliefs are disrespectful to other religions. Your goal is peace. You can't have peace if a Hindu says Bahaullah is not in their scriptures and you say they are. That's not differing of religions. That's a huge conflict. Peace can't happen that way.

How would you fix it? Well, you can't. You have to see it from a Hindu perspective not your own and take their consideration as a fact not as a "differing belief" and excuse it that way without addressing the conflict.

The intention is never to offend but how do we strike an amiable note on Baha'u'llah's claim to be the Promised One?

"The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled."

“VERILY I say, this is the Day in which mankind can behold the Face, and hear the Voice, of the Promised One.”

How do you propose we overcome this impasse or deadlock?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me, especially given that the name is Arabic for a very common Abrahamic utterance.

From Reddit

Bahaullah in the Bible • r/BahaiOrder

Arabic translations of the Bible used to use Baha as Glory but this was changed in the mid 1800's after the rise of Baha'i to "Majd" which also means glory. You can look up the Arabic translations of the Bible prior to 1833 to see that it used to be Baha/Abha. Where ever you see in today's Arabic Bible that says "Majdullah" (Glory of God) was originally "Bahaullah". (John 12:43, Acts 7:55, John 11:4, 2 Corinthians 4:6, 1 Timothy 1:11, Revelation 21:11, Romans 5:2, Romans 1:23, Romans 3:23, John 11:40, Proverbs 25:2, Revelation 21:23, Revelation 15:8) Baha (Glory) of God has come on the Last Day.

 

[Dawnofhope]

And it was different before what is considered the "modern era", when many of the things that you are claiming have been "newly introduced" by Baha'i were quite common.

Rights of Greek women
Rights of pre-Christian Scandinavian and Celtic women

Rights of women in ancient Greece? Lets look at this. From your source:

Although most women lacked political and equal rights in ancient Greece, they enjoyed a certain freedom of movement until the Archaic age. Records also exist of women in ancient Delphi, Gortyn, Thessaly, Megara and Sparta owning land, the most prestigious form of private property at the time. However, after the Archaic age, women's status had gotten worse and introduction of legal laws such as gender segregation were implemented.

Women in Classical Athens had no legal personhood and were assumed to be part of the oikos headed by the male kyrios. Until marriage, women were under the guardianship of their fathers or other male relatives; once married, the husband became a woman’s kyrios

Slaves, like women, were not eligible for full citizenship in ancient Athens, though in rare circumstances they could become citizens if freed. The only permanent barrier to citizenship, and hence full political and civil rights, in ancient Athens was gender. No women ever acquired citizenship in ancient Athens, and therefore women were excluded in principle and practice from ancient Athenian democracy

Doesn't look too great for women in Greece back then. In regards to the idealised Spartan women:

Despite relatively greater mobility for Spartan women, their role in politics was just as the same as Athenian women, they could no take part in it. Men forbade them from speaking at assemblies and segregated them from any political activities. Aristotle also thought Spartan women's influence was mischievous and argued that the greater legal freedom of women in Sparta caused its ruin.

So much for the Spartans.

The problem with looking at pre Christian civilisations is the lack of primary sources. Take the Celts which you mentioned:

The position of ancient Celtic women in their society cannot be surely determined due to the quality of the sources. On the one hand, great female Celts are known from mythology and history, on the other hand, their real status in the male-dominated Celtic tribal society was socially and legally constrained.

The situation of Celtic women on the European mainland is almost entirely transmitted by contemporary Greek and Roman authors, who saw the Celts as barbarians and wrote about them accordingly. Information about Celtic women of the British Isles comes from ancient travel and war narratives, and possibly the orally transmitted myths later reflected in Celtic literature of the Christian era.

Written accounts and collections of these myths are only known from the early Middle Ages. Archaeology has revealed something of the Celtic woman through artefacts (particularly grave goods), which can provide clues about their position in society and material culture.

A consistent matriarchy, which was attributed to Celtic women by Romantic authors of the 18th and 19th centuries and by 20th century feminist authors, is not attested in reliable sources.

Ancient Celtic women - Wikipedia

I suspect the narrative about these idealised pagan societies is naïve idealism and myth based on antichristian sentiments. We have the same problem when trying to look into the culture of indigenous peoples.

No, they are not isolated incidents. That was a great portion of Europe before Christianity, and you trying to relegate them to "isolated incidents" is ignorance of the fact, pure and simple.

So if you can think of anymore civilisations were there is equality of men and women where we have reliable historic documentation, please let me know.

Humans having the capacity to do good translates very poorly to systems of power and government. Read more history, and when you find anything established that even comes close to an uncorrupt system of power and government, let us know.

We don't need to look at history. We just need to beyond our own borders. There are many peaceful countries in the world today that are well run.

Global Peace Index - Wikipedia

Your country is number 103 on the list between Uganda and Cambodia! I suppose when you live within nationalistic ideology its hard to look objectively to the wider global community.

I've told you several times that I am not a cynic, I am a realist. I would appreciate you not insinuating that I know the value of nothing.

We have had this discussion before, that is true. When I see you providing balanced and fair arguments I'll revise my opinion.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Records also exist of women in ancient Delphi, Gortyn, Thessaly, Megara and Sparta owning land, the most prestigious form of private property at the time.

That's an important bit there that you blew through. You focus on Classical Athens, which is after the "decline of equality." This is a better source for pre-Archaic Greek women, particularly that of the Bronze Age. Women held power in spheres of influence both religious and secular. Several very powerful queens are known of - queens not through marriage, but in their own rights. This would not be possible if there was an uneven view of gender equality.

From that same source, we can see that Spartan women were taught literacy, self-defense, and had the right to own property. You shouldn't cut out Spartan equality to quickly.

Priestesses were also a big thing in Ancient Greece; from Delphi to Sparta. That there was a high number of goddesses - equally worshipped and revered, and often times more so than the gods - also indicates a more equal notion of gender freedoms.

So much for the Spartans.

Not quite, and this is where I am more loathe to use Wikipedia than not. Aristotle noted that Spartan women "live in every sort of intemperance and luxury", and that "many things were managed by their women". Aristotle is noted as being very critical of Sparta because in his view, they were "ruled by women."

Then there are such figures as Queen Arachidamia, who is noted as addressing the Gerousia, or the council of Elders. This alone shows women taking part in politics, as well as testimony backing up them having a large hand in economic ownership and thus, a hand in politics from that angle. At one point in time, the two wealthiest people in Lacedaemon were women. Spartan women are also noted as helping during battles and preparing cities for war.

The problem that you're having is that you're looking at Athens, and taking that to be all of Ancient Greece. When in actuality, Greece was not a united nation as it is today. There are Athenians, and then there are Spartans.

I suspect the narrative about these idealised pagan societies is naïve idealism and myth based on antichristian sentiments.

You suspect wrong.

Right from the get-go, Celtic women were distinct in the ancient world for the liberty and rights they enjoyed and the position they held in society. Women were rulers and warriors, children of both genders were taught to fight, and could hold any public position right along side men.

And before you get too hopped up on these examples being nonetheless patriarchal, know that Baha'i is patriarchal as well. And should you question that, first question why there are no "great messengers" recognized by Baha'i that are women.

Your country is number 103 on the list between Uganda and Cambodia!

Uganda and Guinea. Yet even looking at the top slot, Iceland, there was a case of nepotism, where apparently "People in Iceland are sick of corruption and nepotism" and the government was likened to "mafia-style families". Apparently even Heaven is not free of human error. Even your own country, which ranked #1 for quite some time, is not free from corruption.

So here's the thing. Having presented this in evidence of the fickle and realistic nature of human politics, I want you to stop calling me a cynic. Or even suggesting that I have nationalistic ideologies, as you did here recently.

I suppose when you live within nationalistic ideology its hard to look objectively to the wider global community.

Drop those from our discussion, and we can progress in a civil manner. Otherwise there's very little to discuss.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Because we need to have the right foundation before we can talk to each other on this thread. If we can agree on some basics then we can look at the harder stuff.

You posted as if I did not know the elementary and therefore how you now say 'agree on basics' when your post inferred I didn't know the basics? Sincerity and truth is required to look at the elementary therefore the basic truths.

I believe Christ is the Son of God and He has returned.

Clearly Christ hasn't returned and forewarned was fore armed. Every Jew would have known it, as well as has every Christ believing person, if he had.

Do you believe you are being judged? Then show us your proof.

How about...

RESOLUTION said: ↑
What you believe and what God says is the right way is probably where you need to start.

That is not a judgment it is advice it it telling you to examine what you believe and what God says is the right way.
If what you believe is not what God says then how can you say you follow God? I believe not a judgment at all since it does not tell you what you believe or judge what you believe it tells you examine yourself. Which is what Paul advised believers to do to ensure we are keeping in the right way.

I think you need to be honest with yourself if you are interested in the truth. You have no wish to change anything I believe....really?

What I said can be proved. Who made you believe?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We know it is a persons heart upon hearing the word which decides whether a person believes or not.
Peter telling the message in Acts 10 shows that he did nothing but speak Gods words and thousands added to the number of believers and many not added. It is you the person who decides what they believe and how that word sinks into the soil/heart.
Peter just told people he did not convert them the hearing of the word of God brought them to faith and baptism of the Holy Spirit given to all who truly believed.

Spirit and truth is the only way and no man can give you that. Baptism of the Spirit comes from a person believing Gods word about Jesus Christ. Furthermore we are warned not to go beyond the teachings of Christ.

I firmly believe if a person hears the truth and does not believe then nothing a human can do, can change that.
Note when numbers added there was no trying to convince those who did not believe.

So I can say I am not trying to convert anyone. Because you cannot make anyone believe they have to choose for themselves when they hear the word. Has everyone heard about Jesus do you think.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

If Christ had returned all the tribes of the world would have seen it and mourned.
But more importantly, those born of the Spirit and Truth would have been the first to know.
No one has yet said to me Lo here is Christ or there is Christ. I remember that guy claiming he was Christ some
time ago but evidently not.

We are told in the OT, never to rely on what we think we know but to trust God and he will show us the right way
to go, My personal faith is about trusting God with all my heart. Daniel and his friends were faithful to YHWH and he
saved them as his Word promised he would.

Isaiah 43:2

“When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.”

It is about knowing the living God. It is about complete trust in him. I believe Jesus is the Son of God and sent by God and I see Jesus completely trust God even to the point of death. Just as Daniel and his friends.
Faith is about hearts individually and I always wanted to do the right thing by God since a very small child.
King James Bible
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

It isn't that I would know of myself what is always right but I can trust God not to let me down and he will correct me.


For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

So for me it isn't all about what I have learned but the God who has taught me.

My faith is base on YHWH the one true God and that is something another cannot give you.
FAITH is the willingness to act on the basis of what we know about God (which may be very little) and to TRUST HIM that he will not let us down.

Trusting God....I hope it helps you to understand that God is the only way for me. I believe Jesus came from God because he lead by example. He told people to love God with all their heart and their neighbours as themselves. If you love God you will obey him and so loving others you show you love God. I hope you read all of this as it explains whom I trust in.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You posted as if I did not know the elementary and therefore how you now say 'agree on basics' when your post inferred I didn't know the basics?

I could say the same in regards to your post to me.

Sincerity and truth is required to look at the elementary therefore the basic truths.

I feel like I'm being preached at, and then you are saying you are not trying to convert me? Where's the truth and sincerity in that?

Clearly Christ hasn't returned and forewarned was fore armed. Every Jew would have known it, as well as has every Christ believing person, if he had.

I'm just telling you what I believe because you asked. I'm sure the Jews all felt they would recognise the Messiah nearly two thousand years ago.

That is not a judgment it is advice it it telling you to examine what you believe and what God says is the right way.

Advice based on an assumption that you know and I don't.

If what you believe is not what God says then how can you say you follow God? I believe not a judgment at all since it does not tell you what you believe or judge what you believe it tells you examine yourself. Which is what Paul advised believers to do to ensure we are keeping in the right way.

Here we go.

What I said can be proved. Who made you believe?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We know it is a persons heart upon hearing the word which decides whether a person believes or not.

Peter telling the message in Acts 10 shows that he did nothing but speak Gods words and thousands added to the number of believers and many not added. It is you the person who decides what they believe and how that word sinks into the soil/heart.
Peter just told people he did not convert them the hearing of the word of God brought them to faith and baptism of the Holy Spirit given to all who truly believed.

Spirit and truth is the only way and no man can give you that. Baptism of the Spirit comes from a person believing Gods word about Jesus Christ. Furthermore we are warned not to go beyond the teachings of Christ.

I firmly believe if a person hears the truth and does not believe then nothing a human can do, can change that.
Note when numbers added there was no trying to convince those who did not believe.

So I can say I am not trying to convert anyone. Because you cannot make anyone believe they have to choose for themselves when they hear the word. Has everyone heard about Jesus do you think.

If Christ had returned all the tribes of the world would have seen it and mourned.

But more importantly, those born of the Spirit and Truth would have been the first to know.

No one has yet said to me Lo here is Christ or there is Christ. I remember that guy claiming he was Christ some
time ago but evidently not.

We are told in the OT, never to rely on what we think we know but to trust God and he will show us the right way
to go, My personal faith is about trusting God with all my heart. Daniel and his friends were faithful to YHWH and he
saved them as his Word promised he would.

It is about knowing the living God. It is about complete trust in him. I believe Jesus is the Son of God and sent by God and I see Jesus completely trust God even to the point of death. Just as Daniel and his friends.

Faith is about hearts individually and I always wanted to do the right thing by God since a very small child.

Trusting God....I hope it helps you to understand that God is the only way for me. I believe Jesus came from God because he lead by example. He told people to love God with all their heart and their neighbours as themselves. If you love God you will obey him and so loving others you show you love God. I hope you read all of this as it explains whom I trust in.

Feel good to get that off your chest?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We accept Christ as a Prophet or the Son of God which Chrustians do also.

Christians believe christ as god not a prophet. His divinity is the same as god's divinity, they say. He isn't seen as a prophet. That's what I mean by misinterpretation of christian scriptures. While you can believe anything; you an believe anything. My thing is this interpretation disrespects the nature of christ and christianity. If you say christianity is part of your faith, one needs to understand christ's actual nature. If not, please don't call it christianity.