How bad is the anti-trans movement going to get?

[fantome profane]

(I tried to get the actual screen shot posted here, or a link to the screen shot, but for some reason I could not get it to work. Sorry if you don't like to watch videos but that is the best I could do)

The question was asked about public execution of Doctors, Therapists, Teachers and Guidance Counselors who help trans children.

The response was very enthusiastic. People who responded were very much in favour of killing teachers, doctors etc. Anyone who helps a trans child.


How dark is this going to get?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's just as loony on the trans side with people talking about killing "TERFs" and hating "cissies". Both sides' extremists have lost their minds. I don't want to be around or associated with either of them.

 

[Viker]

It's just as loony on the trans side with people talking about killing "TERFs" and hating "cissies". Both sides' extremists have lost their minds. I don't want to be around or associated with either of them.

But one side has no power and isn't pushing legislation.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But one side has no power and isn't pushing legislation.

Um, what power don't trans people have? There's trans people in the government and in elected positions, the Democratic Party pretty much officially supports trans rights, there's all the rich advocacy groups like HRC and GLAAD and numerous others, there's trans people who are famous celebrities, there's a lot of allies, etc. We're not exactly marginalized. I know I'm not. There's nothing stopping me from voting, donating money, protesting whatever I want, etc.

 

[Father Heathen]

Because the republican platform doesn't actually benefit anyone other than the rich, they need to rely upon religion and moral panic to manipulate people into voting for them.
Thus controversies are manufactured toward that end, and transgendered people have been chosen for that.

 

[fantome profane]

Because the republican platform doesn't actually benefit anyone other than the rich, they need to rely upon religion and moral panic to manipulate people into voting for them.
Thus controversies are manufactured toward that end, and transgendered people have been chosen for that.

Ah. The new chosen people.

 

[Ella S.]

It's just as loony on the trans side with people talking about killing "TERFs" and hating "cissies". Both sides' extremists have lost their minds. I don't want to be around or associated with either of them.

Meanwhile, TERFs have literal Neo-Nazis marching at their presentations screaming "Heil Hitler" and doing the Nazi salute.

Yeah, obviously, the Nazis and the people against the Nazis are equally bad.

 

[Revoltingest]

(I tried to get the actual screen shot posted here, or a link to the screen shot, but for some reason I could not get it to work. Sorry if you don't like to watch videos but that is the best I could do)

The question was asked about public execution of Doctors, Therapists, Teachers and Guidance Counselors who help trans children.

The response was very enthusiastic. People who responded were very much in favour of killing teachers, doctors etc. Anyone who helps a trans child.


How dark is this going to get?

Talk is cheap.

 

[fantome profane]

Talk is cheap.

The time may yet come when they stop talking about killing start doing it.

 

[Revoltingest]

The time may yet come when they stop talking about killing start doing it.

Now is the time to calmly advocate for tolerance.
Calm things down. Find common ground.
Don't respond as though war has begun.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Now is the time to calmly advocate for tolerance.
Calm things down. Find common ground.
Don't respond as though war has begun.

Common ground with whom? The video mentioned neo-Nazis and anti-trans people calling for killing trans people. Common ground with those types?

 

[fantome profane]

Now is the time to calmly advocate for tolerance.
Calm things down. Find common ground.
Don't respond as though war has begun.

Now is the time to speak out. Before it is too late to speak out.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
—Martin Niemöller

 

[Revoltingest]

Common ground with whom? The video mentioned neo-Nazis and anti-trans people calling for killing trans people. Common ground with those types?

Common ground with one's ostensible foes is best found individual to individual.
It's much work by many.
An effective strategy....
First, get the other side to see one as a fellow human.
Second, get them to see one as non-threatening, & accessible.
Third, acknowledge their feelings.
Fourth, find common interests, whatever they might be.
#1 thru #3 are effective negotiation tools.

If one gives up on even trying, & presumes hostility,
one is doomed to fail. Be part of the solution, not
the problem.
Read...

Daryl Davis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Revoltingest]

Now is the time to speak out. Before it is too late to speak out.

Speaking is good....if one does so with intent to
improve things, & not just ramp up hostilities.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Common ground is best found individual to individual.
It's much work by many.
An effective strategy....
First, get the other side to see one as a fellow human.
Second, get them to see one as non-threatening, & accessible.
Third, acknowledge their feelings.
Fourth, find common interests, whatever they might be.
#1 thru #3 are effective negotiation tools.

If one gives up on even trying, & presumes hostility,
one is doomed to fail. Be part of the solution, not
the problem.
Read...
"Kitty" isn't a label for you.

It is perfectly reasonable to assume hostility from posts advocating murder. I also don't believe that the onus is on targets of hatred to humanize themselves to their haters or abusers; it's on the latter to inform themselves and learn to coexist.

I do choose to engage people holding even the most fringe beliefs partially because I used to hold hateful beliefs too and changed through engagement, but 1) I see that kind of endeavor as voluntary, not obligatory, and 2) I recognize that some people are genuinely malicious and not open to engagement, and it's not my responsibility to placate or mollycoddle them.

I prefer a lot of European countries' approach to murder-advocating neo-Nazis: ban their incitement, prosecute them if they publicly preach their inciting poison, and regard them as a threat and a relic from the darkest days of World War II and the Third Reich.

 

[Ella S.]

Common ground with one's ostensible foes is best found individual to individual.
It's much work by many.
An effective strategy....
First, get the other side to see one as a fellow human.
Second, get them to see one as non-threatening, & accessible.
Third, acknowledge their feelings.
Fourth, find common interests, whatever they might be.
#1 thru #3 are effective negotiation tools.

If one gives up on even trying, & presumes hostility,
one is doomed to fail. Be part of the solution, not
the problem.
Read...

Daryl Davis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Before that thread where people were obsessing over the rock a model was laying on, I would have told you that I have the charisma of a rock. Now I realize that I have less charisma than a rock.

People who corner me into conflict are very rarely amenable to reason, which I have an ample supply of. They can only be assuaged through rhetorical charm, which I have none of. Most people don't even realize there's a difference.

There's no way that I can find common ground with people like this. Somebody with more adept people skills might be able to, but for me it is war. It's the only recourse I have to defend myself and others.

 

[Revoltingest]

It is perfectly reasonable to assume hostility from posts advocating murder. I also don't believe that the onus is on targets of hatred to humanize themselves to their haters or abusers; it's on the latter to inform themselves and learn to coexist.

You advocate eschewing attempts to diffuse their anger, eh.

I prefer Europe's approach to murder-advocating neo-Nazis: ban their incitement, prosecute them if they publicly preach their inciting poison, and regard them as a threat and a relic from the darkest days of World War II and the Third Reich.

Your solution will fail in countries with more freedom of speech.
Do you want to mitigate the problem, or just rail against them?

 

[Revoltingest]

Before that thread where people were obsessing over the rock a model was laying on, I would have told you that I have the charisma of a rock. Now I realize that I have less charisma than a rock.

People who corner me into conflict are very rarely amenable to reason, which I have an ample supply of. They can only be assuaged through rhetorical charm, which I have none of. Most people don't even realize there's a difference.

There's no way that I can find common ground with people like this. Somebody with more adept people skills might be able to, but for me it is war. It's the only recourse I have to defend myself and others.

Have you a better method than mine.
Or Daryl Davis's?

I've had much practice negotiating with hostile
parties in real estate, eg, renters, buyers, sellers.
Set ego aside. Approach it methodically.
Ask oneself, what would best make the other
side amenable to an acceptable agreement?

 

[Debater Slayer]

You advocate eschewing attempts to diffuse their anger, eh.

That's not what I said. If someone wants to try to "diffuse their anger," they're free to do so. What I'm saying is that I don't regard that as an obligation for anyone, least of all the targets of the hatred and calls for violence.

Your solution will fail in countries with more freedom of speech.

Multiple European countries have the highest global levels of freedom per multiple indices. The US has an immature version of "freedom of speech" where incitement can go unchecked.

Do you want to mitigate the problem, or just rail against them?

Those are not mutually exclusive. Prosecuting Nazi preaching is a demonstrably effective way of mitigating the problem. See the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, and a bunch of other countries among the most prosperous and free in the world.

I suspect we won't agree on this, because I'm staunchly against libertarian and largely American notions of "free speech" that overlook or fail to take into account the various reasons to prosecute incitement and hate speech and the benefits to doing so.

 

[fantome profane]

Have you a better method than mine.
Or Daryl Davis's?

I've had much practice negotiating with hostile
parties in real estate, eg, renters, buyers, sellers.
Set ego aside. Approach it methodically.
Ask oneself, what would best make the other
side amenable to an acceptable agreement?

Great. I will leave it to you to talk to the people advocating public executions.

Right now I am trying to talk to the people who may be unaware of what is happening, the people who are not speaking out because they are not "trade unionists".