How can a Muslim woman consider it Honorable to wear the headscarf?

[Pegg]

I see where you're coming from. Let me put it this way. Hijab, which means wearing modest clothes (including a headscarf according to the majority of muslims), is a religious requirement. Now, it also is a sign that sends a message to people. To muslims who understand this, it means that this woman is supposedly not interested in any relations with men outside of either marriage, or a respectful non-sexual relationship like i said. So, i didn't mean it was only a sign, i was discussing the aspect of the message it sends to others as a supposed sign of modesty. And clarifying that it doesn't send a "i'm not interested in men" message.

so what do muslim men think of women who do not wear a hijab...such as westerners for instance? are we viewed as immodest and 'available' because we dont wear one?

 

[Badran]

I can understand that wearing headscarves can be the sign of modesty and decency in some societies. I can understand that.

What I don't understand is why some religions, communities, and even government, need to enforce or pressure women into wearing them. The choice of wearing them should be the free choice for every individual women, not the government, not the community, not the religion and not the husband or male family member (eg father, brother, uncle, etc). Not even God should decide what a person wear. Any group or law (whether they be religious or secular) or husband (or father) shouldn't decide for the women.

And if some don't want to wear them, then they shouldn't be punished for not wearing them. That's what I don't understand.

I totally agree that the government, families, societies and communities should not in anyway pressure, or force the woman onto something like that.

Now, for religion, there are a couple of points you need to consider:

1) God doesn't decide for them, obviously they choose wether or not to wear it.

2) For the punishment part, it is a requirement that according to that religion god requires from women, and that religion says that people will be judged based on how they do, and how they've dealt with god and his requirements.

3) Men too, as i think its already mentioned, are required to be modest, in their clothes and actions most importantly of course. If they do not wear modest clothes, they too will be not meeting god's requirement in that area, and would be punished for it.

 

[Badran]

so what do muslim men think of women who do not wear a hijab...such as westerners for instance? are we viewed as immodest and 'available' because we dont wear one?

No of course not, not even all muslim women wear Hijab. You're not necessarily "available" just because you don't wear hijab, and you're not necessarily "unavailable" just because you do wear hijab. It depends on your intentions like i said.

As for modesty, thats way more complicated. As you could have your hair not covered, but still wear modest clothes in the rest of your body, and the criteria for that is not bound to a certain type of clothes. In other words its not either totally modest, or totally immodest, there are degrees.

 

[SLAMH]

Just a simple question brother: Are you against Hijab?

I hope I misundertood your posts Inshallah

No, I'm not.

It is just that I liked the point that how Muslim women will become married if the Hijab conveys message that women aren't interested at all.

For me, I wouldn't go over trying to justify or analyse the purpose of Hijab if it is considered a sign of modesty or it is just to show that women wearing it aren't available. For it seems clear enough to me that Hijab is aimed to cover the beauty of the women. Well, even the beauty isn't proper word to use in this case, it is better to be understood that Hijab cover the parts that aren't supposed to be displayed.

Pointing that both came up with a good point, doesn't mean that I support their argument, neither do I oppose Hijab.

It is just an acknowledgement that the argument was posed has validity.

 

[Madhuri]

For me, I wouldn't go over trying to justify or analyse the purpose of Hijab if it is considered a sign of modesty or it is just to show that women wearing it aren't available. For it seems clear enough to me that Hijab is aimed to cover the beauty of the women. Well, even the beauty isn't proper word to use in this case, it is better to be understood that Hijab cover the parts that aren't supposed to be displayed.

This is why I wonder about why men do not have to cover their hair. For instance, the Sikh men cover their hair. It takes away from their attractiveness. I find that the amount, shape, colour etc of a man's hair influences how attractive he is. So why does he not have to cover it?

I am also curious. I understand that female children are not required to cover their hair. At what point in her development is she required to start wearing a veil? And why not when she is a child?

And also, is there a point in a woman's life when she is permitted to stop wearing a veil? For instance, a very unattractive 80 year old? And if she must continue to wear a veil, what is the reason?

Also, what if a woman is bold? Is it the hair, the head or both that she is required to have covered from sight?

 

[SLAMH]

Good Questions,

This is why I wonder about why men do not have to cover their hair. For instance, the Sikh men cover their hair. It takes away from their attractiveness. I find that the amount, shape, colour etc of a man's hair influences how attractive he is. So why does he not have to cover it?

As I said before, I don't really think that Hijab is aimed to cover the beauty of the women. Well, of course that depends and varies from sect to sect. For instance, in many sects Hijab is not recognized to cover the face of the woman. I think the face of a woman is essentially a main factor in attracting men as though you can look at it as the essence of her beauty.

So would I go with that, that Hijab is aimed to cover some parts that must not be displayed.

I am also curious. I understand that female children are not required to cover their hair. At what point in her development is she required to start wearing a veil? And why not when she is a child?

This thing also applies to men, it is just that during the time of Puberty, all these things become an obligation that one has to do. This is quite general in Islam, even for prayers. You don't have to pray unless you become an adult, nevertheless it is strongly preferred and recommended to make children pray so they get used to it.

And also, is there a point in a woman's life when she is permitted to stop wearing a veil? For instance, a very unattractive 80 year old? And if she must continue to wear a veil, what is the reason?

This again differs from sect to sect, mainly she doesn't have to. Still, it is preferred to continue wearing it.

Also, what if a woman is bold? Is it the hair, the head or both that she is required to have covered from sight?

This doesn't change anything, I think she will still have to cover it as far as I know.


Regards.

 

[Madhuri]

Good Questions,

So would I go with that, that Hijab is aimed to cover some parts that must not be displayed.


Regards.

Thank you for answering my questions.
I am wondering then, why are particular parts not meant to be seen? Is there any explanation about that? If not, do people ever wonder about the logic of it?

 

[SLAMH]

Thank you for answering my questions.

No need to thank me, It is my pleasure.

I am wondering then, why are particular parts not meant to be seen? Is there any explanation about that? If not, do people ever wonder about the logic of it?

Well, as far as I know I don't think that there is exactly accurate and plain explanation for why some parts are meant to be hidden and why some aren't. The logic is actually not steady, meaning that every sect will find their reasonable argument for how Hijab should be and for what reasons it should be like this. Personally, I think that for the logic beyond the difference in which parts must be hidden for women and men, is actually that there are some men who tend to objectify women, regarding them as sexual objects. It is apparently obvious in the media, advertisements, rap music and just everywhere. Another thing which I hate to say it that we men judge women by very superficial aspects such as appearance and look. It is an ugly truth that most men don't look for inner beauty or something like this, unlike women who look for deeper things rather than just judging on looks. I don't want to go far away from the topic, but it seems quite reasonable for women to cover up more parts than men for that there are some men who act like flies around them like how Fatima described them!!!. (Please, count me out).

I find this a good reasoning for your question.

 

[Pegg]

Well, as far as I know I don't think that there is exactly accurate and plain explanation for why some parts are meant to be hidden and why some aren't. The logic is actually not steady, meaning that every sect will find their reasonable argument for how Hijab should be and for what reasons it should be like this.

can you tell us what the Quran says about what should be covered on a woman?

Personally, I think that for the logic beyond the difference in which parts must be hidden for women and men, is actually that there are some men who tend to objectify women, regarding them as sexual objects. It is apparently obvious in the media, advertisements, rap music and just everywhere.

this is very true and unfortunate because it automatically makes women inferior to men and thats sad because women were created to be mens partners...but how can we be partners if we are viewed as some sort of tool for the mans use. And this is a universal problem...it seems culture is no barrier to this perverted view. We have one extreme in the west where men have made it ok for women to take their clothes off thus making them objects...and the other extreme where it is not permitted for a women to even show her arm because she is an object

either way i think we have a problem.

 

[Starsoul]

this is very true and unfortunate because it automatically makes women inferior to men and thats sad because women were created to be mens partners...but how can we be partners if we are viewed as some sort of tool for the mans use. And this is a universal problem...it seems culture is no barrier to this perverted view. We have one extreme in the west where men have made it ok for women to take their clothes off thus making them objects...and the other extreme where it is not permitted for a women to even show her arm because she is an object

either way i think we have a problem.

I don't think that covering a woman objectifies it as much as displaying of her, As for the western psychology which uses the image of a woman to sell anything between a needle to a jet plane, there is no advertisement where women and sexual hints aren't dropped, no tool of entertainment industry is without their heavy dose of beautiful alluring women.

The women of the west also used to be adorned in fully covered long dresses, with full sleeves and gloves with hats. Things have only changed with time and its quite evident that dressing less has contributed hugely to the sexual hype and family structure instability so prevalent now, and also acted as a gateway to acceptance of immorality and rampant debauchery.

When you will speak to a woman who covers up and the one who does not, you yourself will have an idea which is more objective.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

And as an addition to what sister Sahar said, I say to outhouse that even many American women are fed up of your kind of statements . You dont believe me? Go write Killing us Softly on Youtube and you'll see by yourself.

Disclaimer: For Muslims or any other religious persons who their religion forbids them to look at almost nude ladies , do not watch the vid its full of it.

Muslim women, open it and reduce the page as I did since there is too much Awrah exposed. Listen to what the women says only.

PS: its an award winning serie of videos, enjoy

 

[Sajdah]

How does one consider it an honor to do something a man is not required to do.....

It doesn't make it unhonorable thing just because man is not required to do it....You should realize that man is not the standard of Muslim woman's value!

I hope you read this wonderful article posted in a thread by Sahar: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/96781-man-womans-standard.html

 

[Pegg]

I don't think that covering a woman objectifies it as much as displaying of her, As for the western psychology which uses the image of a woman to sell anything between a needle to a jet plane, there is no advertisement where women and sexual hints aren't dropped, no tool of entertainment industry is without their heavy dose of beautiful alluring women.

I can see why you would think that way. And i totally agree with you about the western media and its portrayal of women, I am always getting annoyed when i see it...i hate it with a passion. However, its really only in the media we see that sort of thing... most women wear normal clothing that are in no way made to look sexy or alluring. Walk down the street in the city and 99.9% are very well dressed. (it may be a different situation at night though when people are going out to clubs and things, but im not in that scene so i dont see that much)

I think the difference is that we dont view a womans arm as something that needs to be covered...or her legs. We can comfortably wear a skirt to our knees and a shirt bearing our arms and this is not considered 'alluring' in any way. Men dont view our normal clothing as sexual.

The difference, and what i think is worse for muslim women, is that you actually need to cover every inch of yourself so as to not be viewed as 'alluring' ... I dont understand how a womans arm for instance can be viewed as sexy but that seems to by the psychology among muslim men.

The women of the west also used to be adorned in fully covered long dresses, with full sleeves and gloves with hats. Things have only changed with time and its quite evident that dressing less has contributed hugely to the sexual hype and family structure instability so prevalent now, and also acted as a gateway to acceptance of immorality and rampant debauchery.

the morals of the west have certainly diminished greatly compared to what they were only 50 years ago, this is very true. But it is not the result of women wearing different style of clothing...it is the result of the majority of people living without the guidance of the holy bible. 50 years ago, people still went to church...but these days the church's are empty. The result is people living without the morals they once lived by. They do not follow the bibles moral code anymore. I am only 36 yrs old and i was not even brought up with religion...nor were any of my friends or school mates...in fact no one i knew in all the time I was young were christians.

When you will speak to a woman who covers up and the one who does not, you yourself will have an idea which is more objective.

again i agree with you, but i think our definitions of what is appropriately covered will differ.

 

[Rakhel]

I can see why you would think that way. And i totally agree with you about the western media and its portrayal of women, I am always getting annoyed when i see it...i hate it with a passion. However, its really only in the media we see that sort of thing... most women wear normal clothing that are in no way made to look sexy or alluring. Walk down the street in the city and 99.9% are very well dressed. (it may be a different situation at night though when people are going out to clubs and things, but im not in that scene so i dont see that much)

I think the difference is that we dont view a womans arm as something that needs to be covered...or her legs. We can comfortably wear a skirt to our knees and a shirt bearing our arms and this is not considered 'alluring' in any way. Men dont view our normal clothing as sexual.

The difference, and what i think is worse for muslim women, is that you actually need to cover every inch of yourself so as to not be viewed as 'alluring' ... I dont understand how a womans arm for instance can be viewed as sexy but that seems to by the psychology among muslim men.




the morals of the west have certainly diminished greatly compared to what they were only 50 years ago, this is very true. But it is not the result of women wearing different style of clothing...it is the result of the majority of people living without the guidance of the holy bible. 50 years ago, people still went to church...but these days the church's are empty. The result is people living without the morals they once lived by. They do not follow the bibles moral code anymore. I am only 36 yrs old and i was not even brought up with religion...nor were any of my friends or school mates...in fact no one i knew in all the time I was young were christians.



again i agree with you, but i think our definitions of what is appropriately covered will differ.

Some times I wish some of these women here in NYC would wear more than the triangle piece of clothe they are accustom to wearing.

 

[SLAMH]

can you tell us what the Quran says about what should be covered on a woman?

Well, again this depends on how one sect interprets the verses that regard the hijab's issue.

For example, the strict interpretation would point that women must be fully covered.

The moderate one would not require women to cover the face and the hand.

Some of the revivalists approach the concept of Hijab as being a dependant factor that must be considered with regard of the surrounding. For them Hijab must not be set apart from the customs and the norms of one society.

this is very true and unfortunate because it automatically makes women inferior to men and thats sad because women were created to be mens partners...but how can we be partners if we are viewed as some sort of tool for the mans use. And this is a universal problem...it seems culture is no barrier to this perverted view. We have one extreme in the west where men have made it ok for women to take their clothes off thus making them objects...and the other extreme where it is not permitted for a women to even show her arm because she is an object

either way i think we have a problem.

I think Starsoul did a good job in answering this.

 

[Katzpur]

It's one of those things that Jews and Muslims agree upon. It's a beautiful thing.

And add Mormons to the mix. While we do not cover ourselves to the degree Muslim women do, we are known to dress modestly. You're right... it is a beautiful thing.

 

[outhouse]

it is a beautiful thing

Now this is a beautiful thing, freedom.

If you cannot handle freedom I understand.

Moderator cut: image removed

 

[Pegg]

Well, again this depends on how one sect interprets the verses that regard the hijab's issue.
.

Can i ask you another question. It seems to me that woman are left with the responsibility of keeping herself covered from the sight of a man so as to not tempt him. I want to know what the Quran teaches men when it comes to how they 'view' women

Does the Quran put any responsibility on the man for the way he views a woman.

For instance, in the bible, Jesus told the men of his day that if they viewed a woman with lust, then he is responsible for that and that God would hold him to account...I believe it is this principle that has taught christian men not to view women in a sexual way. Its the reason why i can sit with one of my christian brothers and breastfeed my baby while in his company and this does not cause a problem for him.

Does the quran put any responsibility upon the man in a similar way?

 

[Pegg]

Now this is a beautiful thing, freedom.

If you cannot handle freedom I understand.

Outhouse, i think you are being disrespectful in continually posting these photos, especially considering you know the sensibilities of the muslim posters.

Do all western women walk around in bikini's? No. So why only post those pictures? You are obviously using them with an ulterior motive.

So how about you post some pictures of how real women, and not the swimsuit models, dress instead. here i'll give you a head start:

 

[outhouse]

Outhouse, i think you are being disrespectful in continually posting these photos.

Do all western women walk around in bikini's? No.

So how about you post some pictures of how real women, and not the swimsuit models, dress instead. here i'll give you a head start:

She seems nice to me.

I live in California, we get that all the time. Im a guy and I think Jessica is A+