How can anyone think Yahweh is good

[The Sum of Awe]

This is a sincere question I have. I'm not trying to ridicule you, your religion, or anything like that. You believe what you believe, and I'm not going to judge you. I'm not trying to offend you.

I specified Yahweh because I'm not really caught up on Allah, etc


How is it possible that the God of Christianity can be seen as morally just? I just can't understand it.

1) If you don't follow or believe in him, the alternative is strictly an eternal punishment/torture. Why not non-existence? Or live in a purgatory-like place until you are allowed in heaven, or reincarnate on earth until you get it right? Doesn't seem reasonable to me that this punishment can easily be just because you didn't worship him.

If you're going to say that it is our choice to go there, we chose to go there, that's not right. For one thing, he is very hidden, and the world can be explained without God. Is it really their fault for not noticing it?

And why not just eternal nonexistence, or reincarnation as I said before? If God created the world and the heavens, it only makes sense that he also created hell.

It's no different than this:

Jesus: Open your door! I need to save you!
Guy: Save me from what?
Jesus: What I will do to you if you don't open the door.


2) Is it really freewill if you are threatened? How is that logic any different than a thug putting a gun to someone's head and tell them that they have a choice to give them the money, or to not give them the money?


3) Isn't the narcissism in God's personality obvious? He asks you to:

Put him before everything else.
He is almost always ffocused on what's best for himself not for man
You are punished for not worshiping him


Honestly, the only reason I can imagine for someone to worship him is out of fear; he is not worthy of trust most of the time, but there's nothing we can do about it, he's too powerful.

Is it really him who should be judging us? Or should we be judging him?

 

[Quagmire]

Different priorities: back in the day the whole world was like one long installment of The Hunger Games, and Yaweh was one of the better sponsors.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is a sincere question I have. I'm not trying to ridicule you, your religion, or anything like that.

When the change of heart?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I actually read and liked your post...especially the:

Jesus: Open your door! I need to save you!
Guy: Save me from what?
Jesus: What I will do to you if you don't open the door.

Made me laugh hard. A good healthy one, too. Anyway, I call it an ultimatum. There is no trust when you are giving a good option versus a bad option, given a choice to choose between the two, and are punished for actually acting on the choice that person gave you freely to begin with.

Is God moral, it depends. His intentions do not reflect who He is. He wants to share His love with His creation--which is a good intention (for God is love, right?), mind you. Then He balances it with, you should love be because without me you wouldn't be here. Reminds me of a parent telling her child, "you better eat your food...without my buying you food, you would starve." His intentions are not well placed.

If God is a God of love, He should love all His creation regardless if they are against Him or for Him. That is immoral there.

God is love. Love is supposed to be a two way street. When you are in a relationship, you not only get the good parts of your mate, you also experience his/her negative side as well.

What throws it off is that God and human are not equal to each other. It isn't a relationship. So, the balance is thrown off by God using His authority for others to worship Him and saying He is jealous with those who do not and punish them because of it.

--

I never believed in a diety; but, if I had, the Christian deity would be far from it. I read on a couple of deities who do not have an ultimatim to their love and hate. It is very blunt in their character who they were and are. They show their negative sides as well as positives. It is based on practice not faith. So we have an influence on how the deity interacts with us.

Abrahamic belief, it is one sided. I never agreed with that.. that's my take.

 

[Faybull]

as for point 1...your behavior dictates this...God will oblige.

point 2...there is no freewill, as if. every thing is coincidence.

point 3, worship isn't an anomaly. there are many ways to worship.

Start with judging thyself...

 

[Baladas]

For me personally, I considered him a moral god when I was a Christian because I wanted him to be.
I had it hammered into me that YHWH was God. The only God.
I had experienced the loving presence of what I consider to be the Divine during Christian worship, and when praying to the Christian God.
This caused a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance when I read the darker parts of the Bible.
I ignored it for years, but I finally had to be honest with myself. I then came to the conclusion that the presence of love and complete acceptance that I felt, assuming it was real, could not be YHWH.

 

[Faybull]

And if we read the darker parts of your life? Do we disregard you?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..For one thing, he is very hidden, and the world can be explained without God. Is it really their fault for not noticing it?

Yes! Ignorance is no excuse in law.
You've "noticed it", otherwise you wouldn't have made this post

..You are punished for not worshiping him

Yes. Ignoring truth has consequences. For example, if the doctor tells you not to do something and you retort with "I don't believe you!", if the doctor is right, you will have to accept the consequences of not listening.
ie. the punishment is self-inflicted

 

[George-ananda]

One can believe Yaweh is good but his press corps just didn't always 'get it'.

 

[Sunstone]

Is it really him who should be judging us? Or should we be judging him?

I think people have a moral responsibility to be intellectually honest, including intellectually honest about their deities, if any.

 

[Baladas]

The difference here is that I am not a supposed god, and my life is not composed of ancient religious texts.
Whether or not you disregard me is entirely up to you.

And if we read the darker parts of your life? Do we disregard you?

 

[Faybull]

The difference here is that I am not a supposed god, and my life is not composed of ancient religious texts.
Whether or not you disregard me is entirely up to you.

so you can't liken yourself to any character from any ancient religious text?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think certain texts make much more sense when read from the perspective that they are Iron Age myths rather than factual, authoritative sources of knowledge about the metaphysical.

 

[Straw Dog]

Hey man,

TIs it really him who should be judging us? Or should we be judging him?

No, man. There's nothing to judge.

You are much closer to the matter at hand with Stoicism than these pseudo-platonic forms and pseudo-questions.

 

[Sunstone]

Honestly, the only reason I can imagine for someone to worship him is out of fear...

I've known quite a few people over the years who've found in the Christian deity inspiration to attempt to love everyone inclusively, as they believe Jesus did. Some of those people told me that they didn't care about heaven or hell, about salvation or damnation, but only cared about following what they took to be Jesus' example of loving everyone.

 

[Baladas]

so you can't liken yourself to any character from any ancient religious text?

That is not at all what I said. I actually love reading religious texts.
People do not hold me up as a paragon of righteousness, nor should they. Likewise, YHWH is not a paragon of goodness or righteousness, yet millions regard his character as such. That is my point.

 

[Faybull]

but he is what we all are. that is the point I am making...sorry for the delay

 

[psychoslice]

I myself think when we think soberly about god, we then wonder why we don't see the obvious, that he is a mad man, of course that is if he is real which I don't.

 

[Wharton]

This is a sincere question I have. I'm not trying to ridicule you, your religion, or anything like that. You believe what you believe, and I'm not going to judge you. I'm not trying to offend you.

I specified Yahweh because I'm not really caught up on Allah, etc


How is it possible that the God of Christianity can be seen as morally just? I just can't understand it.

1) If you don't follow or believe in him, the alternative is strictly an eternal punishment/torture. Why not non-existence? Or live in a purgatory-like place until you are allowed in heaven, or reincarnate on earth until you get it right? Doesn't seem reasonable to me that this punishment can easily be just because you didn't worship him.

If you're going to say that it is our choice to go there, we chose to go there, that's not right. For one thing, he is very hidden, and the world can be explained without God. Is it really their fault for not noticing it?

And why not just eternal nonexistence, or reincarnation as I said before? If God created the world and the heavens, it only makes sense that he also created hell.

It's no different than this:

Jesus: Open your door! I need to save you!
Guy: Save me from what?
Jesus: What I will do to you if you don't open the door.


2) Is it really freewill if you are threatened? How is that logic any different than a thug putting a gun to someone's head and tell them that they have a choice to give them the money, or to not give them the money?


3) Isn't the narcissism in God's personality obvious? He asks you to:

Put him before everything else.
He is almost always ffocused on what's best for himself not for man
You are punished for not worshiping him


Honestly, the only reason I can imagine for someone to worship him is out of fear; he is not worthy of trust most of the time, but there's nothing we can do about it, he's too powerful.

Is it really him who should be judging us? Or should we be judging him?

Purgatory=God's time-out for his naughty children.

 

[lovemuffin]

I've known quite a few people over the years who've found in the Christian deity inspiration to attempt to love everyone inclusively, as they believe Jesus did. Some of those people told me that they didn't care about heaven or hell, about salvation or damnation, but only cared about following what they took to be Jesus' example of loving everyone.

"It may happen that salvation comes to some people even through fear, as we separate ourselves from evil in face of the threats of punishment in Gehenna. And there are some who successfully practice virtue because of the hope for rewards that is stored up for people who have conducted their lives well, achieving victory not out of love for the Good but out of an expectation of recompense. The person who pursues perfection in the soul, however, drives out fear (for a fearful disposition is servile; it does not abide with the Master for love's sake but out of fear of scourging does not run away). Moreover, such a person despises the rewards themselves, on the ground that to make the reward a gain more precious than the gift-giver does not seem right. he loves, with his whole heart and soul and strength. Not something else, something that comes from the Giver, but that very One who is the source of the good things. This is the frame of mind that he who calls us to share in himself enjoins upon the souls of those who attend to him"
-- Gregory of Nyssa, Homily I, Commentary on the Song of Songs

There is an interesting tendency in the eastern church to treat a lot of teachings as being pedagogical in the way we might consider a simple diagram of an atom pedagogical. That is: something is taught in a way that is not really correct, but nevertheless is useful at a certain stage of growth. This attitude could be reconciled with Debater Slayer's statement about iron age myths, although the eastern orthodox don't consider them myths. Nevertheless, writers like Gregory, in proposing allegorical or spiritualized readings, end up treating them somewhat in that manner, in order to arrive at a theology that's not entirely sympathetic to a straightforward reading of the old testament.