How can some Americans support a traitor for a President?

[SkepticThinker]

Show them. I will not "hunt" through links.

I just did. I'm not going to hold your hand for you too. If you want the information, it's right there in several articles, from the mouths of several different people. Right up front in most of them, so you don't even have to scroll too far down.

If you actually want evidence and care about the evidence, try acting like it.

 

[Valjean]

The party that Lincoln belonged to, or the party that started the KKK?

We're not talking parties. We're talking liberalism vs conservatism; Left vs Right. These shift back and forth between parties.

I see the confusion, you think I'm opposed to the historical left but I'm not at all. I am historically left in fact. It's this modern abomination I oppose.

You're misusing the analogy. The left didn't need the metaphorical kool-aid before when they were actually the good guys.

OK. So how does today's Left differ from the good, historical Left? What abominations have they been promulgating?

 

[1137]

OK. So how does today's Left differ from the good, historical Left? What abominations have they been promulgating?

Racism, pseudoscience, a complete failure of social services etc, a rejection of bodily autonomy, a support for violent rioting/criminality/etc, encouraging drug abuse and addiction, failing to keep our children safe in school, an obsession with political talking points over a focus on mental health, attainment based on race/gender/ etc...

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What I am saying is that to believe in Trump, his supporters must believe long serving distinguished generals like Kelly are liars.

I'm not so sure of that. It seems to me that a huge swathe of America support treason against America. They like that Trump called military losers, because misery loves company. Their lives are irredeemable messes and they sense or understand that their fate as a lower-middle class citizens living paycheck-to-paycheck with no realistic path out is sealed, and they understand this as being due to liberals and college folk who sip mimosas in Aruba and immigrants and people of color who steal the good jobs, so they want to scorch the earth. Who better than a vicious, vengeful, strongman like Trump to pay their perceived enemies back? They don't care about America or anything else except striking back. They're hopeless.

Thank the Republicans and increasing wage disparity over the decades for that. Poverty doesn't breed anger by itself, but poverty next to affluence does.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Racism, pseudoscience, a complete failure of social services etc, a rejection of bodily autonomy, a support for violent rioting/criminality/etc, encouraging drug abuse and addiction, failing to keep our children safe in school, an obsession with political talking points over a focus on mental health, attainment based on race/gender/ etc...

Huh?

 

[Unfettered]

Watch the impeachment hearings.
Read the indictments.
That will better inform you.

There's a lot more than just the one speech he gave on January 6th.

What I lack is cause to look. No argument has yet netted that. I assume that a person convinced of Trump's guilt can, upon request, produce the specific statements Trump made, or summarize the specific actions he did that would give me cause to look deeper.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What I lack is cause to look. No argument has yet netted that. I assume that a person convinced of Trump's guilt can, upon request, produce the specific statements Trump made, or summarize the specific actions he did that would give me cause to look deeper.

Cool so you're not actually interested in the facts.

I just took the time to dig up several different stories for you that all say the same thing, from Trump himself, Pence and other witnesses. And now you're complaining that I'm not spoon feeding them to you?
Somebody who is actually interested in the facts wouldn't be this lazy about seeking them out.

 

[Debater Slayer]

For that is what Trump is, if John Kelly is not lying. It is difficult to believe that a former general will be lying about this. Its hard to call anyone who holds the views Trump has as anything but a traitor.



https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/02/...-trump-us-service-members-veterans/index.html

This combined with Trumps attempt to overturn legitimate elections show that he is nothing short of a traitor.
Why would anyone want this kind of a person to lead a nation, any nation, is beyond me. Thoughts on the matter?

My thoughts are that some people see Trump as different from a status quo that they perceive to have failed them, so they vote for Trump in hope of change. Some also find that his biases and politics match their own, so they support him. For many, I suspect that support for Trump is a combination of these factors.

Some people might call my viewpoint jaded, but I feel like it requires considerable recency bias and excessive zooming in on just a small part of US history for one to view support for Trump as dramatically different from support for some of his predecessors or, on a global level, support for other morally dubious figures. Why do some people support Trump despite what he has done? Probably for similar reasons as why some people, both in the US and abroad, have previously supported warmongers, war criminals, corrupt and dishonest politicians, and mass murderers to be their leaders. Add to that the polarization that makes so many people vote against the other candidate rather than for their own candidate and the answer becomes far simpler than some would suggest.

The notion that American politics was much better and more principled before Trump strikes me as remarkably flawed and neglecting to consider the bigger historical picture. In my opinion, Trump is exactly the kind of person that American politics has been leading up to since at least as far back as the '60s.

 

[Valjean]

So why can you not admit this also applies to the democrats/left?

I'm not a supporter of either party. The Democrats abandoned their traditional working and middle class base for the technical class, leaving the ordinary people flapping in the wind and easy prey for both exploitation and any political blowhard feigning sympathy for their plight.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The party that Lincoln belonged to, or the party that started the KKK?

That is an embarrassingly ignorant question. This article might expose why this is true, but I have no expectation that you will read it and even less that you would comprehend what was read.

 

[Valjean]

I just did. I'm not going to hold your hand for you too. If you want the information, it's right there in several articles, from the mouths of several different people. Right up front in most of them, so you don't even have to scroll too far down.

If you actually want evidence and care about the evidence, try acting like it.

But it's so much easier just to watch Fox News or listen to Right-wing talk radio....

 

[Valjean]

What I lack is cause to look. No argument has yet netted that. I assume that a person convinced of Trump's guilt can, upon request, produce the specific statements Trump made, or summarize the specific actions he did that would give me cause to look deeper.

"...None so ignorant as those who will not see."

Can those who choose to remain uninformed hold a legitimate opinion? Should they be allowed to vote on issues they know nothing of?

 

[SkepticThinker]

But it's so much easier just to watch Fox News or listen to Right-wing talk radio....

Apparently.

 

[fantome profane]

What is missing and what, to date, no human being has yet been able to produce, is a real, actual crime.

Four separate indictments with a total of 91 criminal charges. There were four* different grand juries consisting of American citizens who decided the evidence warranted these charges.

I know you are going to say there have been no convictions (yet), but there is certainly evidence of criminal activity. To say “no human being has yet been able to produce, is a real, actual crime” is absurd.


(* actually five different grand juries, because the Georgia process required two for some strange reason)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Can those who choose to remain uninformed hold a legitimate opinion? Should they be allowed to vote on issues they know nothing of?

You're the second Trump hater I've seen in this thread talking about restricting people's voting rights! I wonder if there will be a third to make it a trend!

 

[1137]

That is an embarrassingly ignorant question. This article might expose why this is true, but I have no expectation that you will read it and even less that you would comprehend what was read.

That's the point though, parties change, sides flip. The only thing worthy of insult here is your belief that only the side you don't belong to can do this, not yours.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's the point though, parties change, sides flip. The only thing worthy of insult here is your belief that only the side you don't belong to can do this, not yours.

<>

To repeat ...

This article might expose why this is true, but I have no expectation that you will read it and even less that you would comprehend what was read

</>

 

[Valjean]

Racism, pseudoscience, a complete failure of social services etc, a rejection of bodily autonomy, a support for violent rioting/criminality/etc, encouraging drug abuse and addiction, failing to keep our children safe in school, an obsession with political talking points over a focus on mental health, attainment based on race/gender/ etc...

But isn't it the Left marching against racism, promoting science, pushing to restore social services, and promoting individual rights to abortion, voluntary euthanasia, &c?
When has the Left encouraged crime, violence and drug addiction?
Isn't it the Lefr calling for gun control legislation to keep our children safe?
Obsessive talking points? It's the Right that invents issues and feeds daily talking points to the media.
Isn't it the Left that's promoting therapy and rehabilitation for prisoners and drug users, over punishment and social ostracism?
Isn't it the Left promoting inclusion, equal rights and equal opportunities based on race, gender, &c?

I'm not seeing any abominations from the New Left here.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Show all the words in context. I will not "hunt" through links.

I just did. I'm not going to hold your hand for you too. If you want the information, it's right there in several articles, from the mouths of several different people. Right up front in most of them, so you don't even have to scroll too far down.

If you actually want evidence and care about the evidence, try acting like it.

We know full well that @Unfettered will not do his own work. He is most certainly not going to search diligently for something he very much wishes NOT to find. His mind's made up, and has no wish to be confused by facts.

He fails to understand how Trump works -- most Trump supporters do, or they couldn't possibly be Trump supporters. Donald Trump has spent his whole life speaking a kind of code through which he always makes his wishes perfectly clear, but always expressed in such a way that he can claim he meant something else. (Remember Bill Clinton: "it depends what the meaning of 'is' is.")

If I send someone a message to commit a crime, in a code to which he has the key, the fact that I didn't say it "in so many words in plain English" will not absolve me of complicity.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Racism, pseudoscience, a complete failure of social services etc, a rejection of bodily autonomy, a support for violent rioting/criminality/etc, encouraging drug abuse and addiction, failing to keep our children safe in school, an obsession with political talking points over a focus on mental health, attainment based on race/gender/ etc...

Quite a list! Got any examples? Or is that just throwing stuff against the wall, hoping something might stick?