How can YHWH be the FATHER?

[1213]

And by gods, who are you referring to? Baal? Marduk? Bel? Ashura?

Bible doesn't tell what they were. I believe the "gods" were angel lords. I don't think they were Baal, Marduk, Bel, or Ashura.

Interesting thing is, for example Judges 2:11 speaks about baals, not just single Baal.

And the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of Jehovah, and served the Baals.
Judges 2:11

I think this indicates that it was not certain guy named Baal, but some things that were called baals. Some say baal means a lord, which makes one wonder, were there even a specific person called Baal who was worshiped. Same is with Ashera(s), which some say is actually sacred trees or poles set up near an altar.

And the sons of Israel did that which was evil in the sight of Jehovah, and forgot Jehovah their God, and served the Baals and the Asherahs.
Judges 3:7

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Bible doesn't tell what they were. I believe the "gods" were angel lords.

I'm a little confused here. Angels are not gods. They are God's messengers. That' what Malakh actually translates as. Most bibles do use the word angel, but it literally means messenger.

 

[Nakosis]

The Bible does not support YHWH as the FATHER. It does however support him as the Adversary.

He lied to Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve could hear YHWH moving about so they hid.

YHWH could not find Adam and Eve?

Adam and Eve come out from hiding to greet YHWH. It doesn't specifically say, but one can gather that it was face to face. Jesus says more than once that no man has seen the FATHER.

Jacob seen YHWH face to face, even wrestled him. Again, Jesus says more than once no man has seen the FATHER.

Moses has talked to YHWH face to face, as a friend. That is pretty clear no metaphor needed. Again, Jesus says more than once that no man has seen the FATHER.

They asked Jesus the FATHER'S name. He does not tell them. Jesus says we don't speak the FATHERS name as it is holy(pure). Jesus says that even he does not speak his FATHER'S name. So who is this YHWH?

The FATHER is Holy, he is without sin, YHWH is by his own words a jealous God, and angry, and murderous.

YHWH says with his own words in
Hosea 13:8 I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs; I will tear open their breast, and there I will devour them like a lion, as a wild beast would rip them open.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.
I believe Revelation 13:2 speaks for itself.

I see YHWH as the Word of God. The Word being the blueprint or structure or perhaps the physical rules put in place upon which creation was built. From "God" comes the word, from the Word comes the universe.

So in a sense the Word rules the universe. In this sense, the universe is also man's adversary. Not exactly wrong to refer to the Word as Lord. Anthropomorphizing the fundamental forces of nature which rule all of existence.

The Word, the fundamental structure of the universe, is what science seeks. God if one exist would exist outside of the fundamental nature of the universe. Something we have no reference to begin to understand.

Real question is whether the authors of the Bible held this understanding. Unfortunately they are not around to ask so we can only speculate.

 

[teage]

Something we have no reference to begin to understand

I think we are very close to this understanding. There are some very interesting theories, though just theories I know. String theory for example

 

[wellwisher]

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2:17

They did not die, they went on to live for hundred of years. YHWH also tempted them by planting it there in the first place. At the time, Adam and Eve had the mentality of a toddler. They didn't even know they were naked.

What died was their innocence; their natural instinct. In a loose sense, it is like you are a virgin only once, with one act changing your fate, forever. It was not until they learned from Satan, and the knowledge of good and evil, that naked was evil or taboo, that they suddenly felt the need to cover up. The change occurred within minutes of learning and buying into the taboo. By covering up, this was a tell, to God, that they had learned a law of good and evil; inhibited behavior appears.

A small child is uninhibited, since they are natural and they will freely follow their inner impulses, since these are innocent. Laws that applies to adults, do not apply to small children. If a young person commits a crime and is underage, they are treated as a minor; not fully under adult law just yet. When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge; learned some laws, they lost that natural innocence of youth. What replaced that state of carefree innocence, were the cares, worries, fears and obligations of an adult. A child does not have to worry about much, since it is all provided for. But the parents; adults, can have piles of stress due to inflation, crime and all the bad things they learn about from fake news and other sources of good and evil knowledge.

This symbolism is about the evolution of modern human consciousness. Humans have two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. The inner self is older and is what all animals have. The inner self uses the operating system of the natural brain, for each species, and it define their natural species propensities; natural human. The ego secondary center is newer. It is more differential and learns from outside; culture, such as laws of good and evil. The inner self does not teach good and evil, since that is manmade and not natural. It is learned from the superego of culture; rules, laws, traditions, etc. Only humans have the ego. The rest of the animals only have an inner self and remain natural. Although dogs and some other domesticated animals, can form a virtual ego to reflect the needs of their owner= their super ego.

The symbolism of Adam appearing from the dust, is about the inner self of humans appearing; new species with new behaviors. It was like going from Windows 95 to Windows 98. When Eve was formed from Adam's rib, that symbolize the ego appearing. Adam was the inner self and Eve the ego. Adam and Eve in paradise was the state where the inner self and ego, were both active and worked as a team; loving mates. This may have been the age of matriarchies. The ego had more differential focus, while the inner self looks at the bigger picture; long term and conservative instinctive. In the story of the tree of knowledge; Eve eats first or the ego is tempted, and the inner self follows; mates. This also shows how the ego could influence the inner self and help evolve it.

This fall after the symbolism and the tree of knowledge of good and evil, is about humans losing that direct contact with the inner self. It is still there, but becomes unconscious. Humans became more eco-centric. The loss of eons of conscious natural instinct made humans much more vulnerable; death appears. The ego becomes more of a product of an evolving cultural environment, instead of the natural environment.

Religions are really about maintaining the connection to the inner self; tree of life and God, that is still around but sealed from the ego. The rest of Genesis is about humans becoming more ego-centric and experimental and unnatural, since they lost natural instinct, and were doing the R&D needed to replace it, via cultural rules and laws.

Jesus is often referred to as the second Adam, but the Adam before the fall and even before Eve. He would be just an inner self without an ego. Without the ego and law, he becomes perfectly natural, again. Less you become as children.

 

[Nakosis]

I think we are very close to this understanding. There are some very interesting theories, though just theories I know. String theory for example

I'm not sure how'd you'd go about testing that understanding. It's one thing to develop a theory which makes sense to you. How to validate it, test your understanding of it's reality is something else.

In the physical world, I may have a theory of how it works. I can test my understanding and correct it when my understanding doesn't support reality.

When it comes to God, you can have one theory, I can have another. Generally, no way to verify whether my theory is any better or worse than yours.

You may have the better understanding but with no way to test the truth of it, I might as well continue to rely on my own since there is no way for me to tell my own theory is inferior.

 

[teage]

What died was their innocence; their natural instinct. In a loose sense, it is like you are a virgin only once, with one act changing your fate, forever. It was not until they learned from Satan, and the knowledge of good and evil, that naked was evil or taboo, that they suddenly felt the need to cover up. The change occurred within minutes of learning and buying into the taboo. By covering up, this was a tell, to God, that they had learned a law of good and evil; inhibited behavior appears.

A small child is uninhibited, since they are natural and they will freely follow their inner impulses, since these are innocent. Laws that applies to adults, do not apply to small children. If a young person commits a crime and is underage, they are treated as a minor; not fully under adult law just yet. When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge; learned some laws, they lost that natural innocence of youth. What replaced that state of carefree innocence, were the cares, worries, fears and obligations of an adult. A child does not have to worry about much, since it is all provided for. But the parents; adults, can have piles of stress due to inflation, crime and all the bad things they learn about from fake news and other sources of good and evil knowledge.

This symbolism is about the evolution of modern human consciousness. Humans have two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. The inner self is older and is what all animals have. The inner self uses the operating system of the natural brain, for each species, and it define their natural species propensities; natural human. The ego secondary center is newer. It is more differential and learns from outside; culture, such as laws of good and evil. The inner self does not teach good and evil, since that is manmade and not natural. It is learned from the superego of culture; rules, laws, traditions, etc. Only humans have the ego. The rest of the animals only have an inner self and remain natural. Although dogs and some other domesticated animals, can form a virtual ego to reflect the needs of their owner= their super ego.

The symbolism of Adam appearing from the dust, is about the inner self of humans appearing; new species with new behaviors. It was like going from Windows 95 to Windows 98. When Eve was formed from Adam's rib, that symbolize the ego appearing. Adam was the inner self and Eve the ego. Adam and Eve in paradise was the state where the inner self and ego, were both active and worked as a team; loving mates. This may have been the age of matriarchies. The ego had more differential focus, while the inner self looks at the bigger picture; long term and conservative instinctive. In the story of the tree of knowledge; Eve eats first or the ego is tempted, and the inner self follows; mates. This also shows how the ego could influence the inner self and help evolve it.

This fall after the symbolism and the tree of knowledge of good and evil, is about humans losing that direct contact with the inner self. It is still there, but becomes unconscious. Humans became more eco-centric. The loss of eons of conscious natural instinct made humans much more vulnerable; death appears. The ego becomes more of a product of an evolving cultural environment, instead of the natural environment.

Religions are really about maintaining the connection to the inner self; tree of life and God, that is still around but sealed from the ego. The rest of Genesis is about humans becoming more ego-centric and experimental and unnatural, since they lost natural instinct, and were doing the R&D needed to replace it, via cultural rules and laws.

Jesus is often referred to as the second Adam, but the Adam before the fall and even before Eve. He would be just an inner self without an ego. Without the ego and law, he becomes perfectly natural, again. Less you become as children.

I get what your saying, I've heard it time and time again. I don't believe it's complicated at all. I choose to understand as it is in the text and with logic, or at least with as much logic as one can put into a "belief". Plain and simple, YHWH put the tree there, temptation. The rest is history.

 

[Sargonski]

I understand the Bible so that YHWH have many sons. Interestingly disciples of Jesus can also be counted as children of YHWH, because:

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

That shows son of God is not necessary in the same sense as normally son of man as in biological way. Here is another example of this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed: that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn’t commit sin, because his seed remains in him, and he can’t sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn’t do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn’t love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Bible shows there has been many son's of God, and some of them have wrong things and were not loyal to God. And I believe God defeated them, because they were doing bad things.

When men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them, God’s sons saw that men’s daughters were beautiful, and they took any that they wanted for themselves as wives.
Gen. 6:1-2


This seems to be about what you think the ancient people thought. And the problem is, there is no good reason to believe you know what they thought.

However, I can believe there have been many Jews who have done wrong things and kept other gods that they should not have kept. That doesn't men they were correct. Not it means that it is a Biblical idea to keep many gods. In Biblical point of view there is only one true God.

Why do you think so?

Sorry, I don't see any good reason to believe that.

Holy deflection Batman ! Why are you quoting from John .. I don't understand how you figure that has anything to do with the beliefs of a Canaanite about the Assembly of EL and YHWH's place in that assembly in 1000 BC ? Have you lost your way .. and for the 3rd or 4th time now can not seem to understand that this is not about what the unknown author of John thinks .. but about what the Canaanite thought. OK ?

Signal somehow that you understand that this is about the beliefs of a Canaanite .. who's Most High God was El .. who was head of an Assembly of Gods .. what is now being translated in modern Bibles as a "Divine Council" .. as in Plural .. Gods . and they also believed in YHWH the Patron war God of Nomadic Canannite Tribes known as the Midianites .. descendants of the Hyksos .. along with the Shasu .. and Yahu of the Shasu. .. but this is all going on prior to 1000 BC .. by that time a "Canaanite" tribe known as the Israelites and their War God YHWH is very famous... and NO .. Sorry .. no one mistakes EL for YHWH. EL is chief God in the heavens .. head of the divine council .. who at one point was also chief god over the earth .. Creator God or rather one of the Gods of the creation of man "Created like US .. in OUR image" but then gives up the position as Chief God on Earth .. to the winner of the bettle between the Sons of EL - YHWH being one of those sons who wins the honor as Chief God over the earth .. as described in Psalm 82..

That is what the Canaanites / Israelites believed .. and not a single one of these poeple believed in Only one God .. not a single one ever heard of Jesus or the gospel of John.

Marduk is the Great God of Babylon who not only defeats YHWH ~580 BC but destroys the place where YHWH's name resides .. effectivly killing YHWH .. though not killing like you understand it .. Gods can be reborn from death ..

"I don't see any reason to believe that" ? No one cares about what you believe .. this is about what the Israelites believed .. perhaps you do not know the difference between EL and YHWH .. perhaps you do not know the story of EL and YHWH .. the Canaanites did not suffer from your lack of understanding .. they knew very well the difference between EL And YHWH. as did every other nation and people from the Greeks to Egyptians .. Phonecians to the Etruscans .. Israelites to Babylonians .. Assyrians to Edomites . Hittites Midianites Ammonites .. Moabites .. and every other people mentioned in the bible

All these folks knew the back story of the Most High God EL .. and the Great God YHWH.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Interesting comments and observations .. even though you ended up with some wrong conclusions.

I will look in your response for these "wrong conclusions". Perhaps they will follow.

So then you are 100% correct that I present the Israelites as a non monotheistic bunch ..

I think you present their non monotheism as their spiritually healthy normal state.
But the Scripture portrays this as degradation and apostasy - abnormal even if frequent.

I challenge you to prove this to yourself without using external Biblical sources .. because that would be way to easy .. but simply within the Bible. .. show me a single moment in time when the Israelites are monotheist

This is difficult because there may have always been SOME in the society who still given to idols.
I am not sure even a word like "monotheism" existed in their vocabulary, or "polytheism" either for that matter. Because of the persistent presence of some idolators you could argue "See Israel was never monotheistic."

I would argue that as God was delivering the Hebrews from Egypt they were essentially monotheists.
Yet at the incident with the golden calf they degraded. About 40 days of Moses being
absent led to impatient apostasy.

And Aaron said, Do not let the anger of my lord burn. You know the people, that they are set on evil;
For they said to me, Make a god for us who will go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.

So I said to them, Whoever has any gold, let them tear it off; so they gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out. (Exo. 32:22-24)

I don't know how you would take that. But I take it as the Israelites disbelief in the one God who just
delevered them. And they concocted another god more to their liking - a virtual polytheism.
I.e "There is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But right now we need a better additional god."

I would also submit the grief contest between Elijah and the 400 prophets of Baal.
At its conclusion the people confessed there was no God except Jehovah. Am I right?

Answer me, O Jehovah; answer me, that this people may know that You, O Jehovah, are God and that You have turned their heart back again.
And the fire of Jehovah fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench.
And when all the people saw this, they fell on their faces and said, Jehovah — He is God! Jehovah — He is God! (1 Kings 18:37-39)

I would submit the efforts of Ezra and Josiah and Hezekiah bringing the Israelites back to
one God allegience.

.. or even more easy .. worshiping only YHWH .... should be simple to find at least one moment in time .. when they were following ridiculous rules the Redactors created after the Israelites were long Gone .. every single day .. pagan as the day is long.

Hold on. This is a switch of the question. You did not ask about the spiritual and moral quality of their living
reflecting monotheism. You asked about thier belief.
Disobedience to laws from God or latter additions is not the issue.
Genuine commands from Mt. Sinai or redactions, embellishments, additions from latter teachers
I think is another issue.

What do you hope to achieve here? Perhaps you don't like some commands in the OT so
your remedy is to challenge that Israel was never monotheistic?

Their lapses into the customs of the surrounding nations which were clearly abominations -
that shows at no time were they monothistic?

Find me a time - when the Israelites are monotheist .. throughout the time from the Exodus through to YHWH's death in ~ 580 BC at the hand of Lord Marduk .... Their story .. not mine

On mark .. set .. Go

On your mark .. get set .. GO!

If you believe the Bible as I do then I believe, for example -

Then the children of Israel removed the Baals and the Ashtaroth, and served only Jehovah. (1 Sam. 7:4)

And the people served Jehovah throughout all the days of Joshua and throughout all the days of the elders whose days extended after Joshua’s and who saw all the great work of Jehovah that He had done for Israel. (Juges 2:7)

Now if you want to argue that even at these times there were Israelites in the society who still
harbored belief in other gods, I would not argue. On a whole though there were periods when
they had no other God except Yahweh.

The Scripture uplifts these times. And individuals who were absolute to believe in only Jehovah are
exemplified. Like in the Babylonian captivity Daniel and his three Hebrew companions are the positive representatives of Israel. It is those people and those times which are presented as normal before God.

I am not sure what you wish to accomplish by highlighting the deviations as if these are
what we should pay more attention to.

Ie. "Here's the Bible. Go hunt out all the instances of Israel having many gods. This proves _______??"
What is that suppose to do for me?

 

[teage]

I'm not sure how'd you'd go about testing that understanding. It's one thing to develop a theory which makes sense to you. How to validate it, test your understanding of it's reality is something else.

In the physical world, I may have a theory of how it works. I can test my understanding and correct it when my understanding doesn't support reality.

When it comes to God, you can have one theory, I can have another. Generally, no way to verify whether my theory is any better or worse than yours.

You may have the better understanding but with no way to test the truth of it, I might as well continue to rely on my own since there is no way for me to tell my own theory is inferior.

Holy deflection Batman ! Why are you quoting from John .. I don't understand how you figure that has anything to do with the beliefs of a Canaanite about the Assembly of EL and YHWH's place in that assembly in 1000 BC ? Have you lost your way .. and for the 3rd or 4th time now can not seem to understand that this is not about what the unknown author of John thinks .. but about what the Canaanite thought. OK ?

Signal somehow that you understand that this is about the beliefs of a Canaanite .. who's Most High God was El .. who was head of an Assembly of Gods .. what is now being translated in modern Bibles as a "Divine Council" .. as in Plural .. Gods . and they also believed in YHWH the Patron war God of Nomadic Canannite Tribes known as the Midianites .. descendants of the Hyksos .. along with the Shasu .. and Yahu of the Shasu. .. but this is all going on prior to 1000 BC .. by that time a "Canaanite" tribe known as the Israelites and their War God YHWH is very famous... and NO .. Sorry .. no one mistakes EL for YHWH. EL is chief God in the heavens .. head of the divine council .. who at one point was also chief god over the earth .. Creator God or rather one of the Gods of the creation of man "Created like US .. in OUR image" but then gives up the position as Chief God on Earth .. to the winner of the bettle between the Sons of EL - YHWH being one of those sons who wins the honor as Chief God over the earth .. as described in Psalm 82..

That is what the Canaanites / Israelites believed .. and not a single one of these poeple believed in Only one God .. not a single one ever heard of Jesus or the gospel of John.

Marduk is the Great God of Babylon who not only defeats YHWH ~580 BC but destroys the place where YHWH's name resides .. effectivly killing YHWH .. though not killing like you understand it .. Gods can be reborn from death ..

"I don't see any reason to believe that" ? No one cares about what you believe .. this is about what the Israelites believed .. perhaps you do not know the difference between EL and YHWH .. perhaps you do not know the story of EL and YHWH .. the Canaanites did not suffer from your lack of understanding .. they knew very well the difference between EL And YHWH. as did every other nation and people from the Greeks to Egyptians .. Phonecians to the Etruscans .. Israelites to Babylonians .. Assyrians to Edomites . Hittites Midianites Ammonites .. Moabites .. and every other people mentioned in the bible

All these folks knew the back story of the Most High God EL .. and the Great God YHWH.

Im trying my best to keep up with you, I know that there are some "Gods" from a more ancient period such as "Baal", who by the way isn't the "God" the bible makes him out to be. There are others too, my question to you is, would you say these other "Gods" are members of the divine counsil?

 

[Sargonski]

I will look in your response for these "wrong conclusions". Perhaps they will follow.

I think you present their non monotheism as their spiritually healthy normal state.
But the Scripture portrays this as degradation and apostasy - abnormal even if frequent.

This is difficult because there may have always been SOME in the society who still given to idols.
I am not sure even a word like "monotheism" existed in their vocabulary, or "polytheism" either for that matter. Because of the persistent presence of some idolators you could argue "See Israel was never monotheistic."

I would argue that as God was delivering the Hebrews from Egypt they were essentially monotheists.
Yet at the incident with the golden calf they degraded. About 40 days of Moses being
absent led to impatient apostasy.

And Aaron said, Do not let the anger of my lord burn. You know the people, that they are set on evil;
For they said to me, Make a god for us who will go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.

So I said to them, Whoever has any gold, let them tear it off; so they gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out. (Exo. 32:22-24)

I don't know how you would take that. But I take it as the Israelites disbelief in the one God who just
delevered them. And they concocted another god more to their liking - a virtual polytheism.
I.e "There is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But right now we need a better additional god."

I would also submit the grief contest between Elijah and the 400 prophets of Baal.
At its conclusion the people confessed there was no God except Jehovah. Am I right?

Answer me, O Jehovah; answer me, that this people may know that You, O Jehovah, are God and that You have turned their heart back again.
And the fire of Jehovah fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench.
And when all the people saw this, they fell on their faces and said, Jehovah — He is God! Jehovah — He is God! (1 Kings 18:37-39)

I would submit the efforts of Ezra and Josiah and Hezekiah bringing the Israelites back to
one God allegience.


Hold on. This is a switch of the question. You did not ask about the spiritual and moral quality of their living
reflecting monotheism. You asked about thier belief.
Disobedience to laws from God or latter additions is not the issue.
Genuine commands from Mt. Sinai or redactions, embellishments, additions from latter teachers
I think is another issue.

What do you hope to achieve here? Perhaps you don't like some commands in the OT so
your remedy is to challenge that Israel was never monotheistic?

Their lapses into the customs of the surrounding nations which were clearly abominations -
that shows at no time were they monothistic?


On your mark .. get set .. GO!

If you believe the Bible as I do then I believe, for example -

Then the children of Israel removed the Baals and the Ashtaroth, and served only Jehovah. (1 Sam. 7:4)

And the people served Jehovah throughout all the days of Joshua and throughout all the days of the elders whose days extended after Joshua’s and who saw all the great work of Jehovah that He had done for Israel. (Juges 2:7)

Now if you want to argue that even at these times there were Israelites in the society who still
harbored belief in other gods, I would not argue. On a whole though there were periods when
they had no other God except Yahweh.

The Scripture uplifts these times. And individuals who were absolute to believe in only Jehovah are
exemplified. Like in the Babylonian captivity Daniel and his three Hebrew companions are the positive representatives of Israel. It is those people and those times which are presented as normal before God.

I am not sure what you wish to accomplish by highlighting the deviations as if these are
what we should pay more attention to.

Ie. "Here's the Bible. Go hunt out all the instances of Israel having many gods. This proves _______??"
What is that suppose to do for me?

This was really bad .. sorry but .. cherry picking a passage from the continual back and forth .. an claiming this is the normal "Healthy State" is as wonky as it gets.. - Then the children of Israel removed the Baals and the Ashtaroth, and served only Jehovah. (1 Sam. 7:4) ...

Breaking Idols happens all the time . but the people don't listen .. the claim that the children of Israel served only YHWH is utter nonsense .. obviously a 4th century linguistic interpolation . but it matters not .. because within a month they go right back to their normal state .. one of rampant polytheism . but even when they were worshiping "Only YHWH" .. this was not monotheism but henotheism .. they still believed in all the other Gods .. just only were they to worship YHWH .. and so this is a failure to provide Monotheism .. and whats perhaps worse is that it is a fail in showing that they wree being good little Henotheists .. as they never stop believing in other God's but go right back to worshpiing those other Gods immediatly after making the promise .. so never really abandoning the worship of these other Gods .. and certainly the platitudes of the leaders .. even if true .. were not filtering down to the masses .. .. but no need to nit pick reality .. You failed to provide a monotheistic moment.. badly. .. and please go back and read the last two chapters of Joshuah .. you have a period of about a week where the people turn to sole YHWH worship .. and of course a huge fail again in that this is not monotheism .. they still believe in other Gods .. and Go right back to worshiping them a few weeks After the Death of Joshuah .. like they were prior to Joshua's death .

 

[Feedmysheep]

Thank you, that is an interesting point. By what is said in the Bible, YHWH is the only true God and can't be seen directly without dying.

Yes sir. But you sound like you should be aware of the exceptions.
Abraham, Jacob, Isaiah, Manoah and his wife the parents of Samson.

You see sometimes Christ's anticipated eternal redemption had a effect that
the redemptive righteousness needed to see God was imputed to the seers.

Take Isaiah for example when he saw God -

Then I said,
Woe is me, for I am finished! / For I am a man of unclean lips, / And in the midst of a people of unclean lips I dwell; / Yet my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts.

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with an ember in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with a pair of tongs.

And he touched my mouth with it and said,
Now that this has touched your lips, / Your iniquity is taken away, and your sin is purged. (Isa. 6:5-7)

So, if the man was really the God who can't be seen without dying, then there is a little problem.

The problem is taken care of by the redemption of the Son of God.
And God being way ahead of the story as He transcends time, gave a couple of windows
in the OT to men seeing God. They did not die because justification was extended to them.

This was a preview of the great work of Christ to come.
And He is God become a man. All the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him.

For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell (Col. 1:19)

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,
And you have been made full in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority. (Col. 2:9,10)

But if you prefer the Hebrew Bible we have the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 that God would
come be on earth as a man. A child BORN who is the Mighty God. And a son GIVEN who is
the Eternal Father.

For a child is born to us, / A Son is given to us; / And the government / Is upon His shoulder; / And His name will be called / Wonderful Counselor, / Mighty God, / Eternal Father, / Prince of Peace.

To the increase of His government / And to His peace there is no end, / Upon the throne of David / And over His kingdom, / To establish it / And to uphold it / In justice and righteousness / From now to eternity. / The zeal of Jehovah of hosts / Will accomplish this. (Isa. 9:6,7)

But, this later part seems to tell that the man was the God. And this could cause many problems in the Bible. On the other hand, it could be fitting that there is Elohim, the one and only true God and YHWH would be then Jesus.

Think of an analogy of a electric power plant.
In the distance there is the source of the electricity in the power plant.

Far from the source are the homes that are to receive the electricity.

Over the miles of distance between the source and the destination of homes there are the
cables over which the electric current flows.

This is an rough analogy of the Triune God - the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
The Father is the source of the electrical power.
The homes are the destination to utilize the electrical power.
The cables connecting the power plant to the homes give the current of electricity a way to
flow from the source to the destination.

We cannot separate what the Trinity is from the operation of the Trinity.
God's eternal purpose is to dispense His life and nature into man.
The Father is the source.
The Son is the course.
The Holy Spirit is the flow.

The three are co-eternal and live within each other - coinherent.
Yet what God does is dispense His communicable attribute into His redeemed people.
The operation of the three-one God is to dispense God in Christ by the Spirit into the saved human beings.

This is what the Bible is about.That is the dispensing of God into man for an "organic" union
of divinity and humanity. That is the mingling of God and man.

This is the master key which unlocks the entire Bible.
If from beginning to end you keep this in mind you will well understand the progressive
revelation from Genesis to Revelation.

In many cases that could be useful. However, if everything said in the Bible is taken into account, I think there is only one true God, whose name is YHWH and the God is greater than Jesus and is not a man.

God had to become a man to DIE.
The man had to be God to make the significants of His death have eternal implications.

Now I have been away from this thread and am not sure if I am repeating.
However compare these two passages about the Beginning and the End being God, the First and the Last.

Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, / And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, / I am the First and I am the Last, / And apart from Me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)

Compare:

And when I saw Him [Jesus], I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev. 1:17,18)

How could there be a First before the First?
How could there be a Last after the Last?

Now speaking as Jesus often did, on the grounds of being a man, He did say the Father
was greater than He. That was His humility. God can be expressed not only as ultimate authority
but also as ultimate submission TO authority.

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. (John 10:29,30)

You have heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming to you. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

The Apostle Paul tells us that Christ humbled Himself to the uttermost. He did not grasp at His
equality with God. He instead emptied Himself not of God's nature but of the glorious expression.
He did not grasp to retain what He had.

Christ Jesus,. . .
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped,
But emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, becoming in the likeness of men;

And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of a cross. (Phil. 2:5b-8)

For His obedience, for His perfect manifestation of submission to accomplish eternal redemption
God the Father stands by His Son more than a trillion trillion percent. And has given the name
Jesus Christ as the highest name in the universe.

Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (vs.9-11)

Compare:

I have sworn by Myself; / A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness / And will not return, / That every knee shall bow to Me, / And every tongue shall swear.
It shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah / Is there righteousness and strength. / To Him shall men come, / And all those who are burning in anger against Him shall be ashamed. (Isa. 45:23,24)

This obviously leads to the question, what happened by the oaks of Mamre. One way to see this is the same as in the case of Jesus. Bible tells God lives in Jesus. And in Jesus God appeared to people. The same could be in this Mamre case, YHWH appeared to Abraham in the man. But, i have to think this more, perhaps there is some other better explanation.

What do you think, that God is a man?

Yes. Jesus Christ is the God-man.
And the eternal purpose of God is to produce many sons of God CONFORMED to the image of Christ
the Firstborn Son of God.

Right here -

Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;

And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Romans 8:29-31)

This shows the tremendous extent of the effectiveness of His work on the cross and His work
as the transforming Spirit living in the saved. He is able to save them from the lowest point to the uttermost.

But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable.
Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them. (Heb. 7:24,25)

Your comments?

 

[Sargonski]

Im trying my best to keep up with you, I know that there are some "Gods" from a more ancient period such as "Baal", who by the way isn't the "God" the bible makes him out to be. There are others too, my question to you is, would you say these other "Gods" are members of the divine counsil?

Who are the other members of the divine council ! .. Good question ... now we are humming along . The Bible gives quite a number El - Most High .. and the twin God Zedek .. Righteousness and Justice at the right hand of the father .. God of Abraham .. God of the Priestly order of Melchi-Zedek .. of which David Solomon .. Zadok the priests ... and Jesus from the New Testament.

Then we have the bnei elohim . the "Sons of God" .. some of which came down to eartth and mated with human (Adamu) femailes .. the offspring of which were called nefilium .. heros' of the Stories of Old ..... so we are told.

Some of the notable "Sons of the Gods" are Lord Baal Lord YHWH, Hadad, Marduk, Chemosh and a number of others that do not spring to mind .. but lest we not forget one of the most interesting of the bnei elohim .. the tester of Souls .. one of the few sons of God that shows up in the new testament ... chief God over the earth we are told .. with Great Godly powers .. yet subordinate to his Father .. as the story of Job unfolds.

And .. lest we forget the most important ... tha anima to the animus .. the Ying to the Yang .. .. beloved Asherah .. Consort to YHWH .. and daughter Anat .. quite a favorite those two .... both present with YHWH in the Temple of YHWH .. and worshiped alongside YHWH at the temple .. and lets us not forget to mention Sophia .. cast down to earth like Prometheus though .. so maybe no allowed in the Assembly...

and last but at the opposite end of Least ... the primordial Chaos Dragon that YHWH defeats to become Chief God on Earth .... along with defeating the other sons of God .. but this is a complicated digression .. don't think she is at the table ..

Now those and others such as Tammuz .. oh and Lord Jealous .. lest we forget that important God of the covenant with Israel ..

Now .. that is the one's found in the Bible .. fortunately we found libraries full of Canaanite tablets and know their religion very well .. as did the Israelites .. who were Canaanites .. their religios beliefs descending from Canaanite religious belief .. more the same than different .. and of course ust as polytheistic .. believing in the same divine Pantheon .. with numerous minor local changes .. these are shared believes throughout the region the creation story we know in much greater detail than in Genesis .. and many other parts of the Bible are explained by knowing the Canaanite beliefs .. such that the Bible is being rewritten .. especially passages with other Gods .. like Psalm 82..

The flood story .. the Flood is sent by EL (Sumerian Enlil) and it is his Brother Enki (Ea) who has a human make a boat . It is Enki who is primarely responsible for the creation of humans .. but numerous other Gods help out .. and Godesses .. hence the "Like Us - in Our Image" plurality in Genesis.

 

[Sargonski]

Im trying my best to keep up with you, I know that there are some "Gods" from a more ancient period such as "Baal", who by the way isn't the "God" the bible makes him out to be. There are others too, my question to you is, would you say these other "Gods" are members of the divine counsil?

Who are the other members of the divine council ! .. Good question ... now we are humming along . The Bible gives quite a number El - Most High .. and the twin God Zedek .. Righteousness and Justice at the right hand of the father .. God of Abraham .. God of the Priestly order of Melchi-Zedek .. of which David Solomon .. Zadok the priests ... and Jesus from the New Testament.

Then we have the bnei elohim . the "Sons of God" .. some of which came down to eartth and mated with human (Adamu) femailes .. the offspring of which were called nefilium .. heros' of the Stories of Old ..... so we are told.

Some of the notable "Sons of the Gods" are Lord Baal Lord YHWH, Hadad, Marduk, Chemosh and a number of others that do not spring to mind .. but lest we not forget one of the most interesting of the bnei elohim .. the tester of Souls .. one of the few sons of God that shows up in the new testament ... chief God over the earth we are told .. with Great Godly powers .. yet subordinate to his Father .. as the story of Job unfolds.

And .. lest we forget the most important ... tha anima to the animus .. the Ying to the Yang .. .. beloved Asherah .. Consort to YHWH .. and daughter Anat .. quite a favorite those two .... both present with YHWH in the Temple of YHWH .. and worshiped alongside YHWH at the temple .. and lets us not forget to mention Sophia .. cast down to earth like Prometheus though .. so maybe no allowed in the Assembly...

and last but at the opposite end of Least ... the primordial Chaos Dragon that YHWH defeats to become Chief God on Earth .... along with defeating the other sons of God .. but this is a complicated digression .. don't think she is at the table ..

Now those and others such as Tammuz .. oh and Lord Jealous .. lest we forget that important God of the covenant with Israel ..

Now .. that is the one's found in the Bible .. fortunately we found libraries full of Canaanite tablets and know their religion very well .. as did the Israelites .. who were Canaanites .. their religios beliefs descending from Canaanite religious belief .. more the same than different .. and of course ust as polytheistic .. believing in the same divine Pantheon .. with numerous minor local changes .. these are shared believes throughout the region the creation story we know in much greater detail than in Genesis .. and many other parts of the Bible are explained by knowing the Canaanite beliefs .. such that the Bible is being rewritten .. especially passages with other Gods .. like Psalm 82..

The flood story .. the Flood is sent by EL (Sumerian Enlil) and it is his Brother Enki (Ea) who has a human make a boat . It is Enki who is primarely responsible for the creation of humans .. but numerous other Gods help out .. and Godesses who incubate the first humans .. hence the "Like Us - in Our Image" plurality in Genesis.

 

[1213]

Yes sir. But you sound like you should be aware of the exceptions.
Abraham, Jacob, Isaiah, Manoah and his wife the parents of Samson.

I think it depends on what way seen. I think many may have seen God in some way. For example image of God, or indirectly, the brightness of God.

And He is God become a man. All the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him.

For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell (Col. 1:19)

Bible tells God dwells in Jesus, not that Jesus is the God.

...A child BORN who is the Mighty God. And a son GIVEN who is
the Eternal Father.

For a child is born to us, / A Son is given to us; / And the government / Is upon His shoulder; / And His name will be called / Wonderful Counselor, / Mighty God, / Eternal Father, / Prince of Peace.

In this case I think it is important to notice that the Bible says "His name will be called", not that he will be called. God gave His name to Jesus. And that name can be called....

...Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name. Those whom you have given me I have kept. None of them is lost, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:11-12

God had to become a man to DIE.

I don't think that is what the Bible tells.

Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, / And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, / I am the First and I am the Last, / And apart from Me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)

Compare:

And when I saw Him [Jesus], I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev. 1:17,18)

It is interesting that they both seem to be first and the last.

Now, if we think Jesus is the one and only true God, and the only first and last, who do you think is the person on the thone?

After these things I looked and saw a door opened in heaven, and the first voice [Jesus] that I heard, like a trumpet speaking with me, was one saying, "Come up here, and I will show you the things which must happen after this." Immediately I was in the Spirit. Behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting on the throne… …When the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to him who sits on the throne, to him who lives for-ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives forever and ever, and throw their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for you created all things, and because of your desire they existed, and were created!"
Rev. 4:1-11

 

[1213]

Holy deflection Batman ! Why are you quoting from John .. I don't understand how you figure that has anything to do with the beliefs of a Canaanite about the Assembly of EL and YHWH's place in that assembly in 1000 BC ?

To show how in Bible son of God or children of God is not the same as people commonly seems to think.

Signal somehow that you understand that this is about the beliefs of a Canaanite

Actually this seems to be about what you think they believed. And sorry, I don't think you know it.

...
That is what the Canaanites / Israelites believed .. and not a single one of these poeple believed in Only one God ...

The problem with this is, you offer no good reason to believe you.

 

[1213]

I'm a little confused here. Angels are not gods. ...

I didn't mean they are regular angels. I believe they were angel lords.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I didn't mean they are regular angels. I believe they were angel lords.

What is an "angel lord"? And where does they exist in any of the monotheistic faiths? I can't seem to find any place an "angel lord" is mentioned either in the Bible or the Quran.

 

[Feedmysheep]

I think it depends on what way seen. I think many may have seen God in some way. For example image of God, or indirectly, the brightness of God.

Your saying "many may have seen God in some way" is good enough.
In some way they saw God.

In most of those cases except for Abraham the Scripture specifically mentions that
they did not, as would be expected, die. The point is made by the Bible that they saw and graciously were
permitted to live.

Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up.
And they saw the God of Israel, and under His feet there was something like a paved work of sapphire, even like heaven itself for clearness.
And He did not stretch out His hand upon the nobles of the children of Israel.
(Exo. 24:9-11)

I think you are missing the point. God made some exceptions purposely.
We should come away thinking "Hmm. Praise God! In these instances seeing God did not result in death."

I'll come back to this latter in the New Testament.

Bible tells God dwells in Jesus, not that Jesus is the God.

The Bible shows us Jesus Christ is the mingling of God and man.
Unless you want to rebuke Jesus for not correcting Thomas, this doubting disciple
called Jesus his Lord and his God. Did Jesus negate Thomas or affirm him.

Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.

Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. (John 20:27-29)

Where is Jesus correcting Thomas for calling Him not only his Lord but his God?

John in his prologue says in effect that all the seeing of God in the OT was now superceded.
It is in Jesus Christ God is manifest to us. That is God as a man and a man as God - a mingling.

No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (John 1:18)

No doubt the evanglist was just faithfully affirming the teaching of the Lord Jesus.

Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us.

Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father?

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works. (John 14:8-10)

The evangelist also says that Isaiah saw Christ as God before His incarnation.

These things said Isaiah because he saw His glory and spoke concerning Him. (John 12:41)
Compare:
In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting on a high and lofty throne, and the train of His robe filled the temple. (Isa. 6:1) . . . Then I said,
Woe is me, for I am finished! / For I am a man of unclean lips, / And in the midst of a people of unclean lips I dwell; / Yet my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts. (v.5)

You lose the case 1234. You're missing the message of the gospel.

Paul says Jesus Christ is our great God and Savior.
Awaiting the blessed hope, even the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, (Titus 2:13)

Peter also says Christ is our God and Savior.
Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: (2 Pet. 1:1)

In this case I think it is important to notice that the Bible says "His name will be called", not that he will be called. God gave His name to Jesus. And that name can be called....

It is absurd to say His name is called something but He is not that something that His name is called.

His name is called "Mighty God" because He is the incarnation of the Mighty God.
His name is called "Eternal Father" because He is the incarnation of the Eternal Father.
His name is called "Prince of Peace" because He is that - the Prince of Peace.

And His name is called "Wonderful" because He is full of wonder.

...Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name. Those whom you have given me I have kept. None of them is lost, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:11-12

We should not have so superfiscial view of the name of God being other than the reality of the Person of God. There is nothing more emphatic that the Father's name is given to the Son.
To emmerse people into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is to
plunge men into the Triune God. That is one name which is "Father - Son - Holy Spirit". (Matthew 28:19)

Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This command is not about what to pronounce during a baptism. It is about the Christian church
by faith putting people into God. Christians need to realize this. We preach the gospel to have men
and women immersed into the triune God, into His name, into the reality of God.

I don't think that is what the Bible tells.

You do not believe God had to become a man in order to die?

Hebrews tells us of Jesus Christ two things in particular.
1.) Jesus Christ is God.
2.) Jesus Christ became a man in order to taste death.

1.) But of the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)

2.) But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything. (Heb. 2:9)

Notice also that this One of whom it is said "Your throne O God" has PARTNERS. They are joyful as saved
human beings. But He is joyful above all of them as their partner human being - the Son of God.
This indicates God incarnated as a man.

But of the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners”; (Heb. 1:8,9)

Again the Son who is addressed as "O God" with an eternal throne will have brothers as well as partners.
He is Head over all of them.

For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers,

Saying, “I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You.”

And again, “I will trust in Him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children whom God has given to Me.”

Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil, (Heb. 2:11-14)

It is interesting that they both seem to be first and the last.

It is Wonderful as Isaiah said. God becomes a man.
As the First and the Last He had to be in a form in which He could suffer death.
He did and in resurrection has the keys of death and of Hades.

I am the First and the Last And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev. 1:17c,18)

Now, if we think Jesus is the one and only true God, and the only first and last, who do you think is the person on the thone?

The person on the throne is God-man.
And the Spirit of the Person dwelling within the saved is God-man.

There are two steps God took to become a man and to enter into us to be saved, redeemed, justified,
and indwelt by the Triune God.

First the Word BECAME flesh.
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us . . . (John 1:14a)

Second Christ BECAME a life giving Spirit.
the last Adam became a life giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

Through these two BECAMES the eternal Triune God went through an economical process.
He incarnated to accomplish eternal redemption.
In resurrection and exaltation He became in a form in which He can enter into the redeemed
to be thier life.

I would like to save comment on the Revelation verse for another post.

After these things I looked and saw a door opened in heaven, and the first voice [Jesus] that I heard, like a trumpet speaking with me, was one saying, "Come up here, and I will show you the things which must happen after this." Immediately I was in the Spirit. Behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting on the throne… …When the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to him who sits on the throne, to him who lives for-ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives forever and ever, and throw their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for you created all things, and because of your desire they existed, and were created!"
Rev. 4:1-11

 

[Feedmysheep]

Now, if we think Jesus is the one and only true God, and the only first and last, who do you think is the person on the thone?

After these things I looked and saw a door opened in heaven, and the first voice [Jesus] that I heard, like a trumpet speaking with me, was one saying, "Come up here, and I will show you the things which must happen after this." Immediately I was in the Spirit. Behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting on the throne… …When the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to him who sits on the throne, to him who lives for-ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives forever and ever, and throw their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for you created all things, and because of your desire they existed, and were created!"
Rev. 4:1-11

This is the vision of God the Creator in Revelation chapter 4. We must take this and then go ON into chapter 5. The seven lamps of fire which are before the Creator's throne in chapter 4 become the eyes of the Lamb in chapter 5. The eyes of a person are a window into the very person. The seven Spirits of God are the Lamb's very eyes.

Compare:
Revelation 4:5 - And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

Revelation 5:6 - And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as having just been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The seven Spirits of God are ranked with the Father and the Son as the full Triune God in chapter one.
So we know that "the seven Spirits of God" signify the God the Spirit, the eternal Third Person of the trinity.

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is coming, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
And from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood . . . (Rev. 1:4,5)

The sequence of the triune God here is the Father - the Holy Spirit (the seven Spirits) - the Son.
This opening salutation reveals the Trinity. And the seven Spirits means the Spirit of God intensified.
We'll talk to this latter.

Back to Revelation chapter five, the Lamb's EYES are the seven Spirits of God. How can the eyes of
a person not be the person himself? And the sign shows that the Lamb, the Redeemer, this man is
God incarnated. The seven Spirits of God as seven lamps in chapter four have "picked up" someone to
become them - thier very eyes. This points to God's incarnation in the Redeemer Christ to carry out God's
economy and will.

We see that only the God-man Jesus is worthy to take the scroll
out of the hand of God the Creator and to open it. No other being in heaven, on earth, or under the earth was worthy to unlock the sealed scroll of God's eternal purpose for which He created all things. (Rev. 4:11)

Only the God-man, the incarnation of God as the Redeeming Lamb and the Lion of the tribe of Judah
was qualified in all the universe to disclose the meaning of God's creation and His will and purpose for creation.

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the scroll and to break its seals?

And no one in heaven nor on the earth nor under the earth was able to open the scroll or look into it.
And I wept much because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look into it.

And one of the elders said to me, Do not weep; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so that He may open the scroll and its seven seals. (Rev. 5:2-5)

And in the conclusion of chapter five the universal worship is to both God the Father and Creator and
the Lion/Lamb the Son of God. Here we see this universal worship to the Father and the Son.

And I saw, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and of the living creatures and of the elders, and their number was ten thousands of ten thousands and thousands of thousands,

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb who has been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.

And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped. (Rev. 5:11-14)