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How can you believe in a God who permits suffering on this scale?

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I came upon this by accident; It is just as applicable to the Katrina disaster, and it makes good reading (I think); it certainly addresses questions often as ked by non-theists as well as by theiests.​
Article on the Asian tsunami for the Sunday Telegraph –
published 2 January 2005​
The photographs that stay with us, haunt us, are always those of particular faces: one mother’s grief, one child’s nightmare bewilderment and loneliness. Last week, we learned in Canterbury of the death in the Asian disaster of a 14 -year old from the King’s School, with her mother and grandmother. And because of that, people here experienced what had happened in a different way. The number of deaths horrifies us - but what most painfully reaches our feelings is the individual face of loss and terror.

In 1966, when the Aberfan disaster struck, I was a sixth former beginning to think about studying theology at university. I remember watching a television discussion about God and suffering that weekend - with disbelief and astonishment at the vacuous words pouring out about the nature of God’s power or control, or about the consolations of belief in an afterlife or whatever. The only words that made any sense came from the then Archbishop of Wales, in a broadcast on Welsh television. What he said was roughly this: "I can only dare to speak about this because I once lost a child. I have nothing to say that will make sense of this horror today. All I know is that the words in my Bible about God’s promise to be alongside us have never lost their meaning for me. And now we have to work in God’s name for the future."

He was speaking from the experience of losing one child; but he was able to speak abut a much greater tragedy simply because of that, not because of having a better explanatory theory. "Making sense" of a great disaster will always be a challenge simply because those who are closest to the cost are the ones least likely to accept some sort of intellectual explanation, however polished. Why should they?

Every single random, accidental death is something that should upset a faith bound up with comfort and ready answers. Faced with the paralysing magnitude of a disaster like this, we naturally feel more deeply outraged - and also more deeply helpless. We can’t see how this is going to be dealt with, we can’t see how to make it better. We know, with a rather sick feeling, that we shall have to go on facing it and we can’t make it go away or make ourselves feel good.

The question: "How can you believe in a God who permits suffering on this scale?" is therefore very much around at the moment, and it would be surprising if it weren’t - indeed, it would be wrong if it weren’t. The traditional answers will get us only so far. God, we are told, is not a puppet-master in regard either to human actions or to the processes of the world. If we are to exist in an environment where we can live lives of productive work and consistent understanding - human lives as we know them - the world has to have a regular order and pattern of its own. Effects follow causes in a way that we can chart, and so can make some attempt at coping with. So there is something odd about expecting that God will constantly step in if things are getting dangerous. How dangerous do they have to be? How many deaths would be acceptable?

So why do religious believers pray for God’s help or healing? They ask for God’s action to come in to a situation and change it, yes; but if they are honest, they don’t see prayer as a plea for magical solutions that will make the world totally safe for them and others.

All this is fair enough, perhaps true as far as it goes. But it doesn’t go very far in helping us, one week on, with the intolerable grief and devastation in front of us. If some religious genius did come up with an explanation of exactly why all these deaths made sense, would we feel happier or safer or more confident in God? Wouldn’t we feel something of a chill at the prospect of a God who deliberately plans a programme that involves a certain level of casualties?

The extraordinary fact is that belief has survived such tests again and again - not because it comforts or explains but because believers cannot deny what has been shown or given to them. They have learned to see the world and life in the world as a freely given gift; they have learned to be open to a calling or invitation from outside their own resources, a calling to accept God’s mercy for themselves and make it real for others; they have learned that there is some reality to which they can only relate in amazement and silence. These convictions are terribly assaulted by all those other facts of human experience that seem to point to a completely arbitrary world, but people still feel bound to them, not for comfort or ease, but because they have imposed themselves on the shape of a life and the habits of a heart.

Most importantly in this connection, religious people have learned to look at other human faces with something of the amazement and silence that God himself draws out of them. They see the immeasurable value, the preciousness, of each life. And here is one of the paradoxes. The very thing that lies closest to the heart of a religious way of life in the world, the passion about the value of each and every life, the passion that makes religious people so obstinate and inconvenient when society discusses abortion and euthanasia - this is also just what makes human disaster so appalling, so much of a challenge to the feelings. Sometimes a secular moralist may say in contemporary debates: "Nature is wasteful of life; we can’t hold to absolute views of the value of every human organism." That is not an option for the believer. That is why for the believer the uniqueness of every sufferer in a disaster such as the present one is so especially harrowing. There are no "spare" lives.

That is also why the reaction of faith is or should be always one of passionate engagement with the lives that are left, a response that asks not for understanding but for ways of changing the situation in whatever – perhaps very small – ways that are open to us. The odd thing is that those who are most deeply involved – both as sufferers and as helpers – are so often the ones who spend least energy in raging over the lack of explanation. They are likely to shrug off, awkwardly and not very articulately, the great philosophical or religious questions we might want to press. Somehow, they are most aware of two things: a kind of strength and vision just to go on; and a sense of the imperative for practical service and love. Somehow in all of this, God simply emerges for them as a faithful presence. Arguments "for and against" have to be put in the context of that awkward, stubborn persistence.

What can be said with authority about these terrible matters can finally be said only by those closest to the cost. The rest of us need to listen; and then to work and – as best we can manage it – pray.

ENDS
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
The odd thing is that those who are most deeply involved – both as sufferers and as helpers – are so often the ones who spend least energy in raging over the lack of explanation. They are likely to shrug off, awkwardly and not very articulately, the great philosophical or religious questions we might want to press. Somehow, they are most aware of two things: a kind of strength and vision just to go on; and a sense of the imperative for practical service and love. Somehow in all of this, God simply emerges for them as a faithful presence.
I couldn't have said it better. There are many things I don't understand, including why God allows the innocent to suffer, but I have faith that He is an eternal, faithful presence in our lives. Oh, I still rant sometimes but I've noticed that those with the greatest faith seem to have the calmest, most serene presence....and that is my goal. Absolute faith.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
The extraordinary fact is that belief has survived such tests again and again - not because it comforts or explains but because believers cannot deny what has been shown or given to them. They have learned to see the world and life in the world as a freely given gift; they have learned to be open to a calling or invitation from outside their own resources, a calling to accept God’s mercy for themselves and make it real for others; they have learned that there is some reality to which they can only relate in amazement and silence.

This is so true in my life. Thank you Michel, good read. I think I have setteled with the intellectual answers for much of my life. But what answer will suffice a loss? None.

~Victor
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
We cannot understand what lessons those individuals are here to learn. Being a victim is a state of mind.

When the hurricanes came through here last year, in the middle of a destroyed trailer park, I found a little old lady with a garage sale sign. She was selling what ever anyone wanted to pick up out of her yard. I found a beautiful rug and asked her how much she wanted for it, and she said she would take $20 and a hug. Her house was completely destroyed and all her belongings were strewn around the yard, but she never stopped smiling. She said she had been collecting this stuff for over 50 years, and God decided it was time for her to share it with others.

The people who stayed behind, the ones who couldn't afford to get out, many of them, though sad to say, were addicted to some sort of drugs. I believe the mayhem was caused by the fact that there were 1000's of drug addicts who couldn't get a fix, serious withdrawals, and serious paranoia.

Everything happens for a reason. For many people this was a wake up call. For some it was a blessing in disguise. There are many people who are going to get big checks from the government, and they are going to have an opportunity to do something better for themselves, for many, this is an opportunity of a lifetime.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Deut. 32.8 said:
The article makes some valid points. Delegitimatizing the question was not one of them.
Delegitimatizing <--Is this a word?
I don't think I understood what you are saying. Can you clarify please.

~Victor
 

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
How can you believe in a God who permits suffering on this scale?

Because it doesn't always have to be about us.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Victor said:
Delegitimatizing <--Is this a word?
I don't think I understood what you are saying. Can you clarify please.

~Victor

I think he means, the article doesn't really answer the original question. It just tries to make you feel better about believing in God that allows suffering. I'm sure Deut will correct me if I'm wrong on that. ;)
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
The article makes some valid points. Delegitimatizing the question was not one of them.
Clarify please. I'm not sure what you're referring to. The article or those who posted responses. In either case, I don't think any of us are delegitimizing the question.
 

Fire Empire

Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
We cannot understand what lessons those individuals are here to learn. Being a victim is a state of mind.
Everything happens for a reason. For many people this was a wake up call. For some it was a blessing in disguise. There are many people who are going to get big checks from the government, and they are going to have an opportunity to do something better for themselves, for many, this is an opportunity of a lifetime.
This seems to us a very romantic way of looking at things. True, there is always opportunity in crisis, and the disaster is a chance for many people to start over and begin a possibly better life. But to simply gloss over the real victims of Katrina by saying "being a victim is a state of mind" seems very reckless to us. If some of the rumors are true, for instance children/women being raped by armed gangs, it is foolish to think that such people are not victims. And more to the point of this thread, if a higher power permits any to suffer such disgusting crimes, when said power apparently has the ability to have either a) created humans in a way so they don't do such things, or b) prevent such things from happening, such a power should be consider evil. And an evil god that is also thought to be good is a contridiction. Moreover, if such a god allows disaster like this, it seems evident that s/he/it doesn't value our human lives in this world.

Why believe in anything that doesn't believe in you?
 
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Fire Empire

Member
Darkdale said:
How can you believe in a God who permits suffering on this scale?

Because it doesn't always have to be about us.
We disagree. It is always about us--humanity first. An understanding and respect for nature is obviously needed as well (and respect for other living things) but in this case, (if it exists) a supernatural entity (one or even a whole pantheon) that does not have our best interest in mind is not worthy of belief. Even if we are like ants, and can't see the "bigger picture", it is no excuse for something more powerful to mistreat us.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Victor said:
Delegitimatizing <--Is this a word?
Probably not. Google suggests 'delegitimizing', although there are more than a few references employing the extra syllable. Thanks for the correction.

Victor said:
I don't think I understood what you are saying. Can you clarify please.
michel's lengthy quote seems to suggest that the question is somehow inappropriate. If that is, indeed, what is being suggested, I find the suggestion self serving at best.
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
If some of the rumors are true, for instance children/women being raped by armed gangs, it is foolish to think that such people are not victims.
I do not mean to minimize any one's suffering. But rape is not isolated to this situation. There are women/children who are raped everyday, sometimes by their own family. We do not know why they had to go through that, perhaps they did something really bad in a past life. Maybe they chose to be in that situation (before they were born) because it somehow sets a chain of events into motion. Everything happens for a reason.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
We do not know why they had to go through that, perhaps they did something really bad in a past life. Maybe they chose to be in that situation (before they were born) because it somehow sets a chain of events into motion. Everything happens for a reason.
In other words, for some unknown reason they deserved it? That is repugnant.
 

Radar

Active Member
Fire Empire said:
This seems to us a very romantic way of looking at things. True, there is always opportunity in crisis, and the disaster is a chance for many people to start over and begin a possibly better life. But to simply gloss over the real victims of Katrina by saying "being a victim is a state of mind" seems very reckless to us. If some of the rumors are true, for instance children/women being raped by armed gangs, it is foolish to think that such people are not victims. And more to the point of this thread, if a higher power permits any to suffer such disgusting crimes, when said power apparently has the ability to have either a) created humans in a way so they don't do such things, or b) prevent such things from happening, such a power should be consider evil. And an evil god that is also thought to be good is a contridiction. Moreover, if such a god allows disaster like this, it seems evident that s/he/it doesn't value our human lives in this world.

Why believe in anything that doesn't believe in you?
Evil is of god. It is written in the bible.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So he does it all and he is to blame. I am sure that will start something. But I don't blame any being because I choose not to believe in any god. I believe this was and is a natural disaster and some people are taking advantage of the situation. This disaster is a terrible thing so all we can do is to try and help.
 

Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
Hi Michel, a very bold discussion topic.

I just realized that the reason why I have stayed away from this kind of discussion is that I have come to realize that the nature of free will also comes without a micromanagement package by GOD. If I enjoin the Spirit, then I will receive the help I need, but otherwise I am on my own. The chagrin of the OT prophets was in trying to explain why bad things would happen. Their answer was that it was punishment from GOD. This is still with us today. We got kicked out of the Garden of Eden but a lot of us still expect God to provide us with one.
For example, if someone else takes it upon themselves to do harm, I, or We, may fall victim to it. Does this mean that I, or We, did something wrong? No it doesn't. If God has created a place for us to be able to live our lives, is it free from all obstacles and challenges, no it is not. Can we demand that it be a perfect place and be free of natural forces that created it in the first place? We certainly can't.
I myself maintain faith in God despite of what trials the world I live in may bring.
 

Fire Empire

Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
I do not mean to minimize any one's suffering. But rape is not isolated to this situation. There are women/children who are raped everyday, sometimes by their own family. We do not know why they had to go through that, perhaps they did something really bad in a past life. Maybe they chose to be in that situation (before they were born) because it somehow sets a chain of events into motion. Everything happens for a reason.
Very true, these things and sometimes worse happen everyday, and have been happening as long as humans have been upright, we imagine (and maybe even before that). We're using Katrina as an example, symptom of the disease if you like.

Okay, so this reason you speak of we're going to assume is a good reason, possibly something that benefits everyone and everything in the long run? In such a case, the ends would have to justify the means. And, this happy ending would most likely need to be in some kind of afterlife, in which faith is essential (since we really have no solid proof of an afterlife--or even proof that it doesn't exist, for that matter). So then, we understand it is nice to believe that pain and suffering and death and tragedy happen for a reason--because what a waste to the victims if this is all we get. But we argue that faith is misplaced as it is unreasonable in light of centuries of human tragedy. Rather than expect good things from a higher power, it might be better policy to learn to better fend for ourselves as a species.
 

Fire Empire

Member
Radar said:
Evil is of god. It is written in the bible.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So he does it all and he is to blame. I am sure that will start something. But I don't blame any being because I choose not to believe in any god. I believe this was and is a natural disaster and some people are taking advantage of the situation. This disaster is a terrible thing so all we can do is to try and help.
Exactly. Help, and help to prevent more of the same.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Deut. 32.8 said:
Probably not. Google suggests 'delegitimizing', although there are more than a few references employing the extra syllable. Thanks for the correction.

michel's lengthy quote seems to suggest that the question is somehow inappropriate. If that is, indeed, what is being suggested, I find the suggestion self serving at best.
Ah ok. Gotcha thanks.
I think it is a very appropriate and normal question to ask.

~VIctor
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
Fire Empire said:
Very true, these things and sometimes worse happen everyday, and have been happening as long as humans have been upright, we imagine (and maybe even before that). We're using Katrina as an example, symptom of the disease if you like.
Fire Empire said:

Okay, so this reason you speak of we're going to assume is a good reason, possibly something that benefits everyone and everything in the long run? In such a case, the ends would have to justify the means. And, this happy ending would most likely need to be in some kind of afterlife, in which faith is essential (since we really have no solid proof of an afterlife--or even proof that it doesn't exist, for that matter). So then, we understand it is nice to believe that pain and suffering and death and tragedy happen for a reason--because what a waste to the victims if this is all we get. But we argue that faith is misplaced as it is unreasonable in light of centuries of human tragedy. Rather than expect good things from a higher power, it might be better policy to learn to better fend for ourselves as a species.

I'm not saying that any one 'deserves' to be raped. I'm saying that we do not know. I'm saying that it's not 'good' or 'bad' it just is. I know people, including myself who got over being raped. I feel sorry for the man who did that to me. Sorry that he felt so helpless that he had to lash out at another human. My body is just a collection of cells. And my body went through much more trauma giving birth two times than being raped by some pathetic soul. Should I hate my children for violating me?

It's not what happens to us that matters, but how we react.
 
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